Re: Do those who liked Avatar still like it as much as you did a year
Color me totally shocked.
Color me totally shocked.
Do those who liked Avatar still like it as much as you did a year ago?
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Re: Do those who liked Avatar still like it as much as you did a year
Since Jake didn't save the day, all interpretations that fixate on that are wrong.
The story of how the bravest and beautifulest Navi of all discovered how good Americans, er, humans, really can be, would have been one of the tritest and boringest stories imaginable.
One of the things that really stuck in people's craws about Avatar is one of us going over to their side, that we have to leave our crippled side to die and change.
Since Jake didn't save the day, all interpretations that fixate on that are wrong.
The story of how the bravest and beautifulest Navi of all discovered how good Americans, er, humans, really can be, would have been one of the tritest and boringest stories imaginable.
One of the things that really stuck in people's craws about Avatar is one of us going over to their side, that we have to leave our crippled side to die and change.
Re: Do those who liked Avatar still like it as much as you did a year
Because as we all know, "geeks" all think girls have cooties and were the only ones who had issues with Avatar.
Query: in your modification to the story, how does Jake get to redeem himself before the main character Neytiri? Does he?
Because as we all know, "geeks" all think girls have cooties and were the only ones who had issues with Avatar.
Query: in your modification to the story, how does Jake get to redeem himself before the main character Neytiri? Does he?
Re: Do those who liked Avatar still like it as much as you did a year
I thought it was a great visual experience, between the FX and the 3D. But I didn't like the cliched, preachy story. I thought the final battle scene had been done better in a ton of other movies. To me, Avatar storywise doesn't hold a candle to District 9
I thought it was a great visual experience, between the FX and the 3D. But I didn't like the cliched, preachy story. I thought the final battle scene had been done better in a ton of other movies. To me, Avatar storywise doesn't hold a candle to District 9
Re: Do those who liked Avatar still like it as much as you did a year
Oh, there's a myriad of complaints
1. Too preachy about Big Business versus the Savages destroying their environment
2. No Story, all flash
3. Turncoat
4. Your Theory
...
I personally love seeing a story of a crippled man, waking up mobile and healthy in a fantasy land, where the people love the Land and are at one with it, performing magical feats, and he grows to love the Land and the people, and he regains his health and his prowess (I've said several times on a Stephen R. Donaldson site, that this reminds me of Thomas Covenent Chronicles). I especially love seeing that story told so visually beautiful.
Oh, and I loved District 9 (with it's preachy racism storyline and all) as well
Moon is one, I've only heard about on the boards, I have no knowledge of it from trailers or any Entertainment Media, it seems to have totally run under the radar in nicje status (at least in my world?). I don't even have a clue what it's about (Need to resolve that and research it and availability)
Oh, there's a myriad of complaints
1. Too preachy about Big Business versus the Savages destroying their environment
2. No Story, all flash
3. Turncoat
4. Your Theory
...
I personally love seeing a story of a crippled man, waking up mobile and healthy in a fantasy land, where the people love the Land and are at one with it, performing magical feats, and he grows to love the Land and the people, and he regains his health and his prowess (I've said several times on a Stephen R. Donaldson site, that this reminds me of Thomas Covenent Chronicles). I especially love seeing that story told so visually beautiful.
Oh, and I loved District 9 (with it's preachy racism storyline and all) as well
Moon is one, I've only heard about on the boards, I have no knowledge of it from trailers or any Entertainment Media, it seems to have totally run under the radar in nicje status (at least in my world?). I don't even have a clue what it's about (Need to resolve that and research it and availability)
Re: Do those who liked Avatar still like it as much as you did a year
About the same as I felt about it upon release.
In terms of visual spectacle, it's unparalleled. Even in 2D it blows everything else out of the water, at least effects-wise. And by all means it should--the final production budget has been estimated at 300 million dollars, with many commentators suggesting it may have been even more expensive to make than that.
About the same as I felt about it upon release.
In terms of visual spectacle, it's unparalleled. Even in 2D it blows everything else out of the water, at least effects-wise. And by all means it should--the final production budget has been estimated at 300 million dollars, with many commentators suggesting it may have been even more expensive to make than that.
In other terms, it is less successful. The performances are all over the map, and Sam Worthington's lead is particularly underwhelming. Even Sigourney Weaver has trouble speaking Cameron's unbelievable dialogue with conviction. People complain that the film is just a mash-up of other material, but I find that argument neither surprising (Cameron is notorious for borrowing the writing of Harlan Ellison for The Terminator) nor convincing (Star Wars, a much better movie, is nothing but a mash-up of old serials and Akira Kurasowa). James Horner's score is rather derivative of earlier material, however, including a rather annoying theft of his theme from Glory. It's a little bewildering that after having an entire year to work on the score that what we have is the best he could come up with.
As far as the politics go, I don't see the film as either particularly subversive, nor particularly conservative. The human military are the villains, but Cameron is careful to make them private contractors rather than a government army of any kind. District 9 already offered a searing indictment of such things, and without resorting to the heavy handedness of Stephen Lang casually sipping a coffee while he relishes the massacre he's ordered.
On the other end of the spectrum, Jake is definitely cut from the cloth of the white savior, but the film subverts that to a degree by letting Neryti save him in the end. Still, it's more than a stretch to eliminate all credit to the character for saving the day at the end. Without his intervention, the Na'vi would have been divided and wiped out long before any divine intervention. Speaking of which, isn't denying him credit for saving the day rather ignoring the strong implication that Jake and/or Sigourney Weaver's character are responsible for Eywa's final intervention against the human army? He was the "chosen one" after all--a stupid narrative that I could certainly live without in science fiction from now on.
As far as the politics go, I don't see the film as either particularly subversive, nor particularly conservative. The human military are the villains, but Cameron is careful to make them private contractors rather than a government army of any kind. District 9 already offered a searing indictment of such things, and without resorting to the heavy handedness of Stephen Lang casually sipping a coffee while he relishes the massacre he's ordered.
On the other end of the spectrum, Jake is definitely cut from the cloth of the white savior, but the film subverts that to a degree by letting Neryti save him in the end. Still, it's more than a stretch to eliminate all credit to the character for saving the day at the end. Without his intervention, the Na'vi would have been divided and wiped out long before any divine intervention. Speaking of which, isn't denying him credit for saving the day rather ignoring the strong implication that Jake and/or Sigourney Weaver's character are responsible for Eywa's final intervention against the human army? He was the "chosen one" after all--a stupid narrative that I could certainly live without in science fiction from now on.
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Re: Do those who liked Avatar still like it as much as you did a year
I didn't want to see it when it first came out. Finally, bought it on DVD for cheap, watched it, LOVED it, and said "I have to see this in blu-ray". Found the blu-ray for cheap, bought it, and I still love it to this day after repeat viewings.
I didn't want to see it when it first came out. Finally, bought it on DVD for cheap, watched it, LOVED it, and said "I have to see this in blu-ray". Found the blu-ray for cheap, bought it, and I still love it to this day after repeat viewings.
Re: Do those who liked Avatar still like it as much as you did a year
You seem to not understand the meaning of the phrase "played a role". Might want to ask a friend for help with that.
Because as we all know, "geeks" all think girls have cooties and were the only ones who had issues with Avatar.
Re: Do those who liked Avatar still like it as much as you did a year
Well, it's the only one you're really addressing, and you backed out of the discussion with Lapis about another factor that soured the film for her. And you've not addressed at all the people who had an issue with "white boy saves the day for the hapless blue people." So, geeks that think girls have cooties (
) are just an easy target?
Well, it's the only one you're really addressing, and you backed out of the discussion with Lapis about another factor that soured the film for her. And you've not addressed at all the people who had an issue with "white boy saves the day for the hapless blue people." So, geeks that think girls have cooties (
) are just an easy target?
Re: Do those who liked Avatar still like it as much as you did a year
I like Jake's character arc and Lapis doesn't, so there's not much point debating that aspect further.
Meanwhile, you're throwing around all sorts of hyperbole. If the blue people were hapless, they would have lost the big battle, and lots of real-world geeks who would love to get girl cooties all over them a lot more often then they do tend to shy away from romance-centric stories. Discuss those points if you like, but the hyperbole approach isn't as cute as you seem to think.
I like Jake's character arc and Lapis doesn't, so there's not much point debating that aspect further.
Meanwhile, you're throwing around all sorts of hyperbole. If the blue people were hapless, they would have lost the big battle, and lots of real-world geeks who would love to get girl cooties all over them a lot more often then they do tend to shy away from romance-centric stories. Discuss those points if you like, but the hyperbole approach isn't as cute as you seem to think.
Re: Do those who liked Avatar still like it as much as you did a year
As for the point about the Na'vi needing Jake's help, here's Cameron on Charlie Rose:
As for the point about the Na'vi needing Jake's help, here's Cameron on Charlie Rose:
Re: Do those who liked Avatar still like it as much as you did a year
Can't really vote since I've only recently watched it for the first time on Blu-ray (collector's extended cut).
I enjoyed it, mainly for its visual awesomeness (was watching it on my parent's giant-ass, super-expensive Panasonic plasma TV), not so much because of the story, which felt kind of bland to me.
Can't really vote since I've only recently watched it for the first time on Blu-ray (collector's extended cut).
I enjoyed it, mainly for its visual awesomeness (was watching it on my parent's giant-ass, super-expensive Panasonic plasma TV), not so much because of the story, which felt kind of bland to me.
Re: Do those who liked Avatar still like it as much as you did a year
I loved the movie and saw it several times in the theater and I purchased the extended version of the DVD and I find that it has greatly added to the story and I find myself liking the movie even more.
I loved the movie and saw it several times in the theater and I purchased the extended version of the DVD and I find that it has greatly added to the story and I find myself liking the movie even more.
Re: Do those who liked Avatar still like it as much as you did a year
Meh, on one viewing.
I saw it in 3D iMax and wished I had seen it in 2D instead as it bugged out my eyes 2/3 of the way through... It was pretty eyecandy but didn't do much for me in other ways. I will probably see it again sometime but I'm in no hurry to do so.
"Dances With Smurfs"
I do like the Covenant comparison, though... it could have used SRD as a script consultant to saw off some of the story's rounded edges.
Meh, on one viewing.
I saw it in 3D iMax and wished I had seen it in 2D instead as it bugged out my eyes 2/3 of the way through... It was pretty eyecandy but didn't do much for me in other ways. I will probably see it again sometime but I'm in no hurry to do so.
"Dances With Smurfs"
I do like the Covenant comparison, though... it could have used SRD as a script consultant to saw off some of the story's rounded edges.
Re: Do those who liked Avatar still like it as much as you did a year
Well, my understanding is she has more issue with Neytiri's arc and would rather the focus be shifted onto her. A minor distinction, but an important one.
Hapless as far as inspirational leadership and planning then, though clearly not in physical capabilities.
I think you're taking a subset of "geeks" and projecting them over the entire spectrum of genre fandom. Otherwise, Buffy wouldn't be the popular and still-discussed show it is, Xena would never have become more popular than Hercules, one of the major complaints about X-Men 3 wouldn't be the substitution of Wolverine for Cyclops in the salvation of Jean Grey, and fans of Doctor Who wouldn't be calling Rose "the greatest companion ever!"
Cameron's got a fair point, but I would imagine that the larger complaint of those who cry "Paternalism!" is the out-of-nowhere decision to make Jake Sully the Chosen One who tames the mythical beast and brings all the tribes together. Jake still could've been a critically important part of the movie but let, say, Neytiri be the one who tames the beast and unites the tribes. Or Bigshot Asshole Na'vi that wants to boink Neytiri, for that matter.
Well, my understanding is she has more issue with Neytiri's arc and would rather the focus be shifted onto her. A minor distinction, but an important one.
Meanwhile, you're throwing around all sorts of hyperbole. If the blue people were hapless, they would have lost the big battle, and lots of real-world geeks who would love to get girl cooties all over them a lot more often then they do tend to shy away from romance-centric stories. Discuss those points if you like, but the hyperbole approach isn't as cute as you seem to think.
Hapless as far as inspirational leadership and planning then, though clearly not in physical capabilities.
I think you're taking a subset of "geeks" and projecting them over the entire spectrum of genre fandom. Otherwise, Buffy wouldn't be the popular and still-discussed show it is, Xena would never have become more popular than Hercules, one of the major complaints about X-Men 3 wouldn't be the substitution of Wolverine for Cyclops in the salvation of Jean Grey, and fans of Doctor Who wouldn't be calling Rose "the greatest companion ever!"
Cameron's got a fair point, but I would imagine that the larger complaint of those who cry "Paternalism!" is the out-of-nowhere decision to make Jake Sully the Chosen One who tames the mythical beast and brings all the tribes together. Jake still could've been a critically important part of the movie but let, say, Neytiri be the one who tames the beast and unites the tribes. Or Bigshot Asshole Na'vi that wants to boink Neytiri, for that matter.
Re: Do those who liked Avatar still like it as much as you did a year
This is indeed true
Re: Do those who liked Avatar still like it as much as you did a year
Both those alternate scenarios would have been interesting to see, but I still stand by my "romance?-meh" theory.
Re: Do those who liked Avatar still like it as much as you did a year
I'm sort of in the reverse category. As I've mentioned in other threads, I didn't care for it when I went to see it in the theatre. It looked nice, but I had plenty of problems with its story, its unoriginality, etc.
When I saw it on Blu-ray in 2-D and I came to the realization that the 3-D was hampering my enjoyment of the film. I still think it's pants in lots of areas (sorry, UK terminology sneaking in there) but I don't hate it as much as I did a year ago. I actually find it to be a rather charming film, beautifully shot, with ground-breaking filming techniques. It was just the 3-D that ruined it for me, I guess.
In other words, it is the poster child for one of my biggest complaints about 3-D. If you're planning to make a movie that's all action, with little consideration for plot or characterization (Resident Evil, Step Up, etc) then 3-D is fine. Just don't try to make a movie that intends to have a plot and attempt to convey any sort of message.
Alex
I'm sort of in the reverse category. As I've mentioned in other threads, I didn't care for it when I went to see it in the theatre. It looked nice, but I had plenty of problems with its story, its unoriginality, etc.
When I saw it on Blu-ray in 2-D and I came to the realization that the 3-D was hampering my enjoyment of the film. I still think it's pants in lots of areas (sorry, UK terminology sneaking in there) but I don't hate it as much as I did a year ago. I actually find it to be a rather charming film, beautifully shot, with ground-breaking filming techniques. It was just the 3-D that ruined it for me, I guess.
In other words, it is the poster child for one of my biggest complaints about 3-D. If you're planning to make a movie that's all action, with little consideration for plot or characterization (Resident Evil, Step Up, etc) then 3-D is fine. Just don't try to make a movie that intends to have a plot and attempt to convey any sort of message.
Alex
Re: Do those who liked Avatar still like it as much as you did a year
I remember listening to an NPR segment on scores nominated for an Oscar. The speaker played the princess' theme from Braveheart, then played a snatch of Holst's Jupiter, from The Planets. They clearly were not the same piece of music, but equally clearly Horner was doing something in that style specifically to communicate a kind of imperial graciousness, appropriate to that character. The thing is, the princess' theme was only a single segment in a movie. There were not only other themes, there was music referencing a whole different idiom (Celtic,) than the standard European conservatory late Romantic orchestral music. Indeed, Horner, in the only quote from him I've ever seen, remarked on the difficulty in scoring a disembowelment. He still succeeded.
Similarly, "the" theme from Glory does not make a reappearance, choral music in the vein of Carmina Burana makes an appearance. Other parts of the score are notably original in style, not just in Horner's oeuvre, but for any motion picture. Maybe it would have been better not to have such variety in the tonal range, but a little "classical" music in the score is very much like ending a piece with crashing chords returning to key.
The voiceover about private military provides deniability for those desperate to avoid the plain message in references to "shock and awe." But for that matter, there was a more oblique reference to the official military's bad deeds in voiceover, if I remember correctly.
Praise for District 9, however, is pretty symptomatic of someone uncomfortable with Avatar's viewpoint. District 9's Wikus, who, like Sully, "becomes" one of the enemy, is a vicious racist who the movie discovers to be not so bad after all and even gets redeemed, without any repulsive nonsense about glorifying the oppressed. This is a much more congenial message for a certain kind of viewer. District 9 is not a bit more subtle than Avatar. Wikus chortling while eggs are popping in a burning house is much more heavyhanded than anything in Avatar.
Indeed, the real charge should be that the movie loves Stephen Lang's character, making him a real badass and a vivid character, while his counterpart in District 9 (who also has a climactic battle in an armored suit) is thoroughly generic. Overall, praising District 9, a much more thematically confused movie, with less coherently motivated characters, as better brings to mind the infamous praise for Crash as better than Brokeback Mountain. Like District 9, Crash is a redemption of the racist story.
It was not just Jake who was sent out as a messenger to the other tribes. I think the idea that Jake was the one who reinvigorated the Na'vi as they sat around moaning, then invented the idea of asking for help, is automatically presuming that the Na'vi weren't performing the equivalent of a mass funeral, and would have sat there moaning forever. This seems wrong to me.
Jake's "prayer" was a confession of wrongdoing by humans, i.e., us. Grace's role would have been providing the evidence to sustain the indictment. This is not the typical stuff of white savior. The whole white savior thing is pretty much like the private contractor thing, there for a certain kind of viewer to fixate upon.
I remember listening to an NPR segment on scores nominated for an Oscar. The speaker played the princess' theme from Braveheart, then played a snatch of Holst's Jupiter, from The Planets. They clearly were not the same piece of music, but equally clearly Horner was doing something in that style specifically to communicate a kind of imperial graciousness, appropriate to that character. The thing is, the princess' theme was only a single segment in a movie. There were not only other themes, there was music referencing a whole different idiom (Celtic,) than the standard European conservatory late Romantic orchestral music. Indeed, Horner, in the only quote from him I've ever seen, remarked on the difficulty in scoring a disembowelment. He still succeeded.
Similarly, "the" theme from Glory does not make a reappearance, choral music in the vein of Carmina Burana makes an appearance. Other parts of the score are notably original in style, not just in Horner's oeuvre, but for any motion picture. Maybe it would have been better not to have such variety in the tonal range, but a little "classical" music in the score is very much like ending a piece with crashing chords returning to key.
The voiceover about private military provides deniability for those desperate to avoid the plain message in references to "shock and awe." But for that matter, there was a more oblique reference to the official military's bad deeds in voiceover, if I remember correctly.
Praise for District 9, however, is pretty symptomatic of someone uncomfortable with Avatar's viewpoint. District 9's Wikus, who, like Sully, "becomes" one of the enemy, is a vicious racist who the movie discovers to be not so bad after all and even gets redeemed, without any repulsive nonsense about glorifying the oppressed. This is a much more congenial message for a certain kind of viewer. District 9 is not a bit more subtle than Avatar. Wikus chortling while eggs are popping in a burning house is much more heavyhanded than anything in Avatar.
Indeed, the real charge should be that the movie loves Stephen Lang's character, making him a real badass and a vivid character, while his counterpart in District 9 (who also has a climactic battle in an armored suit) is thoroughly generic. Overall, praising District 9, a much more thematically confused movie, with less coherently motivated characters, as better brings to mind the infamous praise for Crash as better than Brokeback Mountain. Like District 9, Crash is a redemption of the racist story.
It was not just Jake who was sent out as a messenger to the other tribes. I think the idea that Jake was the one who reinvigorated the Na'vi as they sat around moaning, then invented the idea of asking for help, is automatically presuming that the Na'vi weren't performing the equivalent of a mass funeral, and would have sat there moaning forever. This seems wrong to me.
Jake's "prayer" was a confession of wrongdoing by humans, i.e., us. Grace's role would have been providing the evidence to sustain the indictment. This is not the typical stuff of white savior. The whole white savior thing is pretty much like the private contractor thing, there for a certain kind of viewer to fixate upon.
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