Opinion based. You, me, and not Dupree.

[KJbushway]

Oh no thin skin would have meant that i gave into those groups of classmates trying to convert me.
your the one that with your writing tone sounded emotional if i read wrong oops.
Right thats why I didn't say for fact that someone who doesn't do what he described above are just lazy people looking for a safety blanket.
Just remember treat an opinion as just that an opinion.
So saying that I am dictating what makes a person religious makes you seem like your taking it for fact.

 

[fett51]

You're talking about something else completely, the separation of church and state. That was always the case here in the US, it's not new.

And, I never equated the US to western society. I was discussing religion in the US. The survey was quite appropriate, thanks.

Mr Awe

Except the decrease in religious law and religious impact on the state reflects the change in attitudes. That's why I used divorce as an example, it became socially acceptable in spite of religious objections, which is what lead to its legality.

And the quote you replied to referenced western society, not the US specifically.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Oh no thin skin would have meant that i gave into those groups of classmates trying to convert me.
your the one that with your writing tone sounded emotional if i read wrong oops.
Right thats why I didn't say for fact that someone who doesn't do what he described above are just lazy people looking for a safety blanket.
Just remember treat an opinion as just that an opinion.
So saying that I am dictating what makes a person religious makes you seem like your taking it for fact.

Don't read too much into my tone, I'm just having a bit of fun with you. I think you're way too close to this issue to have a rational opinion about it.

 

[KJbushway]

It was opinion based. And Actually I just saying that someone who doesn't put in the hard work shouldn't be able to accept the gifts that the people who do put in the hard work get.

Dude, if you are truly an athiest, then you must think that no religious person will "be able to accept the gifts" no matter how hard they work at it!! At least be logically consistent with your own argument!

Why would you even worry about people calling themselves religous but "not doing the work" inappropriately getting these "gifts"? Just doesn't make sense if you're an athiest.


Personally I think people should practice the religion, or spiritual way, of their choice as they see fit as long as it doesn't hurt others. Or, practice none if that's their choice.
Mr Awe

I said that. If heaven is real. which is a question in a comment. I agree with your last statement, becuase you can agree with me(?) that isn't always the case.
I wasn't worrying about if people are truly religious I was saying for the poll, how many people just said they are religious, instead of people (in my opinion) who are truly religious as they go to church, pray, read the bible when they don't have to.

 

[KJbushway]

Oh no thin skin would have meant that i gave into those groups of classmates trying to convert me.
your the one that with your writing tone sounded emotional if i read wrong oops.
Right thats why I didn't say for fact that someone who doesn't do what he described above are just lazy people looking for a safety blanket.
Just remember treat an opinion as just that an opinion.
So saying that I am dictating what makes a person religious makes you seem like your taking it for fact.

Don't read too much into my tone, I'm just having a bit of fun with you. I think you're way too close to this issue to have a rational opinion about it.

that explains it. You could have something there in the end.

 

[Mr Awe]

It was opinion based. And Actually I just saying that someone who doesn't put in the hard work shouldn't be able to accept the gifts that the people who do put in the hard work get.

Dude, if you are truly an athiest, then you must think that no religious person will "be able to accept the gifts" no matter how hard they work at it!! At least be logically consistent with your own argument!

Why would you even worry about people calling themselves religous but "not doing the work" inappropriately getting these "gifts"? Just doesn't make sense if you're an athiest.


Personally I think people should practice the religion, or spiritual way, of their choice as they see fit as long as it doesn't hurt others. Or, practice none if that's their choice.
Mr Awe

I said that. If heaven is real. which is a question in a comment. I agree with your last statement, becuase you can agree with me(?) that isn't always the case.
I wasn't worrying about if people are truly religious I was saying for the poll, how many people just said they are religious, instead of people (in my opinion) who are truly religious as they go to church, pray, read the bible when they don't have to.

You're missing the point though. The poll just didn't ask them if they were religious. It asked them if they believed in god, if they prayed, if they believed in miracles, etc.

92% of people in the US believe in God. That's the vast majority! Believing in God doesn't equate to practicing a religion but there's a close correlation. Then factor in all the additional information about praying, etc. It's quite clear that most people in the US are religious following any reasonable defintion of the word.

Anyway, I've made my points and my position is that religions will be around and have billions of followers for a very long time. I don't think that increases in science will change that.

Mr Awe

 

[KJbushway]

Yeah I can see that. Increase in science doesn't have anything to do with it. I asked about rational thinking and knowledge. But yes thanks for the poll and your opinion please put more if you wish.
But one more question besides the u.s what about other places like Europe, which has a higher non-believer percentage. will that increase and influence other places or not?

The U.S went backwards it started out getting away from a strict religious system to being a religious freedom country, better words would be a more relaxed religious following. then it went to a more strict religious following(today)
however, places like Europe which had a strict religious following became mroe relaxed and have stayed that way for the most part.

 

[Mr Awe]

^^ I don't think rational thinking or knowledge are increasing in the general population. But, even if they did, nah, I still think the human psyche is essentially built to need religion. And the human psyche, at it's core, won't change for a long, long time. Maybe that will only change when we merge with or become intelligent machines. Then all bets are off!

Mr Awe

 

[Amaris]

Yeah I can see that. Increase in science doesn't have anything to do with it. I asked about rational thinking and knowledge. But yes thanks for the poll and your opinion please put more if you wish.
But one more question besides the u.s what about other places like Europe, which has a higher non-believer percentage. will that increase and influence other places or not?

The U.S went backwards it started out getting away from a strict religious system to being a religious freedom country, better words would be a more relaxed religious following. then it went to a more strict religious following(today)
however, places like Europe which had a strict religious following became mroe relaxed and have stayed that way for the most part.

A religious politician does not a religious government make. Our government is secular.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Religion has been in decline in Western civilization since the Renaissance. As long as knowledge continues to grow, and to permeate society to a greater degree, mainstream religion will continue to become diluted to the point where it disappears. Barring unforeseen disasters or cultural collapses, it will probably take another four or five hundred years.

By what measure is religion declining? Please be specific rather than throwing out an unsupported generality. I think that's a myth. This 2008 poll is very interesting.

The study detailed Americans' deep and broad religiosity, finding that 92 percent believe in God or a universal spirit -- including one in five of those who call themselves atheists. More than half of Americans polled pray at least once a day.
But Americans aren't rigid about their beliefs.

Most of those studied -- even many of the most religiously conservative -- have a remarkably nonexclusive attitude toward other faiths. Seventy percent of those affiliated with a religion believe that many religions can lead to eternal salvation. And only about one-quarter of those surveyed believe there is only one way to interpret their religion's teachings.

Found here

The information you cite in the poll, aside from that odd bit about atheists, is indicative of my point. 8% do not believe in a god or universal spirit (and do not fear legal retribution for saying so)... only a bare majority, judging from the phrasing, pray on a daily basis... they aren't rigid about their beliefs... tolerance of other religions has increased, even among self-identified conservatives... three quarters believe their religious doctrine is open to interpretation. Compare this to the situation five or six hundred years ago, pre-Renaissance. We live in an increasingly secular society where scientific awareness, to a degree unimaginable in centuries past, has filtered into the public consciousness. The church does not control the state and is not allowed to use the public schools as indoctrination centers. Failure to follow religion attend church regularly or believe in a god is not a criminal offense. This has been the trend for the past five centuries or so and will continue into the future; religion will continue to be diluted and diminish in importance until it ceases to exist for all intents and purposes. Again, that's barring any unforeseen social collapse.

 

[Mr Awe]

^^ Ah, but that's different than being in decline, as you put it. That's religion evolving to modern living. And, do you have evidence that it was more strict before? Maybe only ever a bare majority prayed daily? I don't know but you probably don't either. I still don't see any evidence that supports what you are saying.

Mr Awe

 

[Kestra]

The two of you might be working on different timescales here.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Perhaps. The historical evidence is overwhelming, after all. There used to be formal (enforced) prayer on a daily basis; now most people who identify as religious don't go to church even weekly.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Few things will be as good for the long-term progress of humanity as the total compartmentalization and personalization of religion.

 

[Mr Awe]

Perhaps. The historical evidence is overwhelming, after all. There used to be formal (enforced) prayer on a daily basis; now most people who identify as religious don't go to church even weekly.

If it's overwhelming, then present some of that evidence. I still think it's just a change in religion.

And, it depends on which religion you're talking about. There are religions that today have daily, in fact, multiple times a day prayer.

In the US for Christianity, I don't believe there were ever enforced daily prayers? So, I don't get what you're saying.

Mr Awe

 

[Kestra]

Perhaps. The historical evidence is overwhelming, after all. There used to be formal (enforced) prayer on a daily basis; now most people who identify as religious don't go to church even weekly.

I'm curious now as to whether you see this decline just in Western culture or the world in general.

 

[KJbushway]

Well, I was saying that Religion rules a lot of things forced by our government. In god we trust(which the founding fathers would have never put), one nation under.
Stem cell research, abortion, all things that should be the individauls choice, is overridden by religious rule.
Places in Europe started out this way and have become more relaxed, The U.S has become more strict in that a lot of legislation that maybe pro-choice(as it is a individuals pursuit to happiness(un-alienable right)] is hardly ever passed because our government system is devoute religious. Yes, there things that one party passes that one refuses too, but thats mostly just the fight between them. If one party is in power they don't consider America as a whole, just those who are like them.
This sounds confusing to me even, am I clearing up my point?

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Well, I was saying that Religion rules a lot of things forced by our government. In god we trust(which the founding fathers would have never put), one nation under.
Stem cell research, abortion, all things that should be the individauls choice, is overridden by religious rule.
Places in Europe started out this way and have become more relaxed, The U.S has become more strict in that a lot of legislation that maybe pro-choice(as it is a individuals pursuit to happiness(un-alienable right)] is hardly ever passed because our government system is devoute religious. Yes, there things that one party passes that one refuses too, but thats mostly just the fight between them. If one party is in power they don't consider America as a whole, just those who are like them.
This sounds confusing to me even, am I clearing up my point?

Religion influences US policy to some degree but not quite to the level you seem to indicate. Abortion is in no real danger of being outlawed, though there may be restrictions on it from place to place. "In God We Trust" being on money doesn't amount to much, frankly. It was just a bit of anti-Communist posturing and hasn't served much more of a purpose than that. I don't feel oppressed every time I open my wallet because I'm not a hypersensitive two-year-old. Part of growing up is learning to make peace with the things you can't change. Some people are gonna be bastards and there's not a lot you can do about that. If people didn't have religion they'd use some other tool to bludgeon people into conformity. Religion is a symptom, not the problem.

I agree that religious thought has too much impact on US political discourse and policy, but when 90% of Americans believe in something it's just impossible to avoid. People have values and most people's values come from religion, and people naturally want the law to reflect their values.

But you also have to consider the flip side: the instances of prayer not being allowed in schools, banning Bible study groups from school grounds, denying funding to organizations that discriminate on the basis of religion, Christmas displays on public land being taken down by legal injunction, memorial crosses along highways being dismantled in the same manner, etc. etc. Christians do not have carte blanche in this country.

 

[fett51]

If it's overwhelming, then present some of that evidence. I still think it's just a change in religion.

Gallup does a poll asking "Is religion important to you" on a global scale. In the following European countries more than 50% of respondents answered that religion was not important: Estonia, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Czech Republic, France, UK, Finland, Russia, Netherlands, Belarus, Russia, Albania, Bulgaria, Iceland, Latvia, Belgium, Hungary, Slovenia, Spain, Germany, Switzerland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Slovakia. This is more than half of the countries in Europe. Bonus: Canada had 58% no. They also have a poll asking if people have attended a religious service in the last week, only Ireland, Poland and Bosnia answer more than 50% yes (the US falls at 47% yes incidentally).

[Source - registration is free]

I should not need to remind anyone that during the Middle Ages in Europe anyone considered a heretic was likely to get burned at the stake and societies of heretics had genocidal crusades launched against them.

 

[KJbushway]

Religion is a symptom not a problem. nice phrase, coin that.
I was just running out of examples, I am not good at coming up with things I already learned unless theres the list I got it off of infront of me.
I live in the bible belt, so unforntuantely I dn't encounter any of those flip side things you mentioned. I mean I tried to make an atheist club in my school, but ran out time.
But there was even church group in the auditorium on thursdays and bible group every morning.
I fought with my teachers almost every year when I stood but did not put my hand over my heart or recite the pledge. Even had to show them the legislation that allowed me to do what I did. One of the reasons I didn't do sports they always hundled into a group and prayed aloud, I didn't want to be the bad apple in the group.