Why "Star Trek" is not right...

[F. King Daniel]

Re: Differences between FC/INS Sovereign & NEM Sovereign?

yeah, by a supernova. which will also destroy life in a radius of at least 10,000ly, otherwise it doesn't deserve the "super". federation, klingons, cardassians, all gone within the next few centuries.

And Spock stopped it just after Romulus was destroyed, saving the rest of the galaxy. I can see why Nero might think that Federation-representative Spock delayed on purpose.

Do supernovae blast out in a spherical blast or is the radiation more directed? If its spherical then Spock's actions before he was sucked into the wormhole were negligable and everybody else would have been doomed a few days later. One would have thought that other Federation scientists were carrying out simultaneous action in different locations but of course that just makes it even more unlikely that Spock was the one that Nero stumbled across.

Spock says the black hole absorbed the exploding star - sucking the whole thing up from one edge, apparently (which makes Nero's insistance on drilling and symmetrical destruction of Vulcan and Earth all the sillier, but y'know, whatever)

 

[Devon]

Re: Differences between FC/INS Sovereign & NEM Sovereign?

Spock says the black hole absorbed the exploding star - sucking the whole thing up from one edge, apparently (which makes Nero's insistance on drilling and symmetrical destruction of Vulcan and Earth all the sillier, but y'know, whatever)

I was thinking about that. If the supernova is expanding outwards in all directions then it's possible that detonating the black hole from from one corner is not really going to do the trick because the singularity can only take care of whatever is there from that side. But what about the other sides that are expanding in the opposite directions? Makes me think Spock's job wasn't done like he thought it was perhaps!

But, the Supernova would eventually rescend back on to itself and not go on for infinity. The supernova is probably the only real scientific issue I have with the film (and apparently not a huge issue with me considering I am only mentioning it two years after the fact ,) and agree with Phil Plait (Bad Astronomy) that a Gamma Ray burst would have a much more feasible and much cooler effect. Now THOSE could do some serious damage.

Nero's decision seems like it makes a little more sense in regards to locating the red matter in the center of the planet (well close to it because of the core and all that good stuff) because it would theoretically cause the planet to collapse inwards and on to itself. Sort of like a mega chain reaction allowing minimal time for escape. I'm honestly not sure how much destruction a black hole could do if it's just besides the planet, or at least in a timely manner.

 

[Deckerd]

The motivation of Nero's crew never bore much scrutiny. They were all supposedly intelligent men and it's likely only the captain was barking mad. Any other crew would have gently removed him from control in the long years they were waiting for something to happen. They had come back to a world where Romulus still existed. Surely going home would have been the logical, emotional and satisfying thing to do? They had plenty of time to plan for a supernova disaster.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Re: Differences between FC/INS Sovereign & NEM Sovereign?

Spock says the black hole absorbed the exploding star - sucking the whole thing up from one edge, apparently (which makes Nero's insistance on drilling and symmetrical destruction of Vulcan and Earth all the sillier, but y'know, whatever)

I was thinking about that. If the supernova is expanding outwards in all directions then it's possible that detonating the black hole from from one corner is not really going to do the trick because the singularity can only take care of whatever is there from that side. But what about the other sides that are expanding in the opposite directions? Makes me think Spock's job wasn't done like he thought it was perhaps!

But, the Supernova would eventually rescend back on to itself and not go on for infinity. The supernova is probably the only real scientific issue I have with the film (and apparently not a huge issue with me considering I am only mentioning it two years after the fact ,) and agree with Phil Plait (Bad Astronomy) that a Gamma Ray burst would have a much more feasible and much cooler effect. Now THOSE could do some serious damage.

Nero's decision seems like it makes a little more sense in regards to locating the red matter in the center of the planet (well close to it because of the core and all that good stuff) because it would theoretically cause the planet to collapse inwards and on to itself. Sort of like a mega chain reaction allowing minimal time for escape. I'm honestly not sure how much destruction a black hole could do if it's just besides the planet, or at least in a timely manner.

A black hole that formed on the surface would drop toward the center of the planet. Due to it's speed it would overshoot the center, rise almost as far as the surface and drop again. It would repeat this until it came to rest in the middle of the planet. This would actually be more damaging because of tidal effects and the fact that it would pass through more of the mass thus growing larger, faster.

 

[Pauln6]

Re: Differences between FC/INS Sovereign & NEM Sovereign?

Spock says the black hole absorbed the exploding star - sucking the whole thing up from one edge, apparently (which makes Nero's insistance on drilling and symmetrical destruction of Vulcan and Earth all the sillier, but y'know, whatever)

I was thinking about that. If the supernova is expanding outwards in all directions then it's possible that detonating the black hole from from one corner is not really going to do the trick because the singularity can only take care of whatever is there from that side. But what about the other sides that are expanding in the opposite directions? Makes me think Spock's job wasn't done like he thought it was perhaps!

But, the Supernova would eventually rescend back on to itself and not go on for infinity. The supernova is probably the only real scientific issue I have with the film (and apparently not a huge issue with me considering I am only mentioning it two years after the fact ,) and agree with Phil Plait (Bad Astronomy) that a Gamma Ray burst would have a much more feasible and much cooler effect. Now THOSE could do some serious damage.

Nero's decision seems like it makes a little more sense in regards to locating the red matter in the center of the planet (well close to it because of the core and all that good stuff) because it would theoretically cause the planet to collapse inwards and on to itself. Sort of like a mega chain reaction allowing minimal time for escape. I'm honestly not sure how much destruction a black hole could do if it's just besides the planet, or at least in a timely manner.

Nero isn't a scientist and may not have known how much red matter to use safely and successfully. I prefer to think that the seismic disturbances felt by Vulcan were a result of his first unsuccessful attempt at destroying the planet or its system. After that, he decided he'd have to drill.

I'm troubled by Spock's plan on many levels. If the red matter was capable of absorbing a whole supernova why was somebody as smart and as good at astrophysics as Spock anywhere near close enough to the resulting singularity to be pulled inside?

 

[F. King Daniel]

He said he was pulled inside while trying to escape from Nero. By what we saw in the flashback, I assumed he was keeping the black hole between himself and Narada, maybe trying to trick Nero into falling into it (not knowing it led into the past, which the film presents as a total fluke, despite young Spock's incorrect assumption after Vulcan's destruction) but after 100+ years the law of averages finally caught up on him and Spock fell in too.

FWIW, Countdown and the early IMSDB script say Spock's was a suicide mission.

 

[Pauln6]

A suicide mission would make sense. Although why a red matter bomb couldn't be detonated remotely I don't know...

 

[Crazy Eddie]

^ As I've said many times, I'm fairly sure that Spock used the slingshot maneuver to fly to a point BEFORE the star had exploded, intending to absorb it before it went nova in the first place. In which case Nero, not realizing that this was the plan all along, followed him through the time warp intending to tear him a new asshole for seemingly sitting back and letting Romulus be destroyed.

I doubt it would have mattered if Spock had explained to him what was going on. Nero is many things, but I never got the impression that he was gifted with exceptionally good judgment.

 

[kkozoriz1]

If that's the case then he can go back in time and hide himself aboard the Enterprise on it's way home from 2063. Wait it out. Prevent the supernova and save Romulus and Vulcan, since the alternate universe wouldn't have come into existence.

 

[Set Harth]

^ As I've said many times, I'm fairly sure that Spock used the slingshot maneuver to fly to a point BEFORE the star had exploded, intending to absorb it before it went nova in the first place.

The slingshot maneuver doesn't exist in the Orciverse.

 

[ST-One]

^ As I've said many times, I'm fairly sure that Spock used the slingshot maneuver to fly to a point BEFORE the star had exploded, intending to absorb it before it went nova in the first place.

The slingshot maneuver doesn't exist in the Orciverse.

Says who?

 

[kkozoriz1]

^ As I've said many times, I'm fairly sure that Spock used the slingshot maneuver to fly to a point BEFORE the star had exploded, intending to absorb it before it went nova in the first place.

The slingshot maneuver doesn't exist in the Orciverse.

Spock Prime does and he calculated it from memory in TVH.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

^ As I've said many times, I'm fairly sure that Spock used the slingshot maneuver to fly to a point BEFORE the star had exploded, intending to absorb it before it went nova in the first place.

The slingshot maneuver doesn't exist in the Orciverse.

Says who?

Orci & Kurtzman in the Q&A, and they are the new head cheeses so...

 

[F. King Daniel]

^ As I've said many times, I'm fairly sure that Spock used the slingshot maneuver to fly to a point BEFORE the star had exploded, intending to absorb it before it went nova in the first place. In which case Nero, not realizing that this was the plan all along, followed him through the time warp intending to tear him a new asshole for seemingly sitting back and letting Romulus be destroyed.

I doubt it would have mattered if Spock had explained to him what was going on. Nero is many things, but I never got the impression that he was gifted with exceptionally good judgment.

What? There's absolutely nothing to suggest that in the movie. Spock stopped the supernova after Romulus was destroyed. If there was any intent of anything else, it would have shown up in either Countdown (co-written by the writers of STXI) or the early script at IMSDB (where Spock flies into the black hole on purpose, hoping to have another chance to save Romulus)

 

[Crazy Eddie]

If that's the case then he can go back in time and hide himself aboard the Enterprise on it's way home from 2063. Wait it out. Prevent the supernova and save Romulus and Vulcan, since the alternate universe wouldn't have come into existence.

Assuming the Enterprise-E still makes that trip in the alternate universe, and even then, assuming the Enterprise-E itself wasn't affected by the alternate timeline.

What? There's absolutely nothing to suggest that in the movie. Spock stopped the supernova after Romulus was destroyed.

Much in the mind meld sequence is lacking in background detail. Most glaringly, the fact that the destruction of Romulus seemed to be "unthinkable" for some reason. It's not as if the shockwave is invisible or unpredictable, under normal circumstances even the Romulans would have seen that coming a light year away.

The information conveyed is obviously a matter of extreme summary, and there is FAR more going on there that remains unexplained:
- Why did the Romulans leave it to Spock instead of doing it themselves?
- Why did Spock go to the Romulans instead of the Federation?
- Why did he need a fast ship?
- Why was he surprised that Romulus was destroyed?
- Why did Nero blame Spock/The Federation for inaction instead of blaming his own people?

Between the unknowns, the simplest explanation for most of these is Spock intentionally using a bit of time travel to prevent the star from exploding in the first place. It would fit with all of the above, since
- The Romulans don't know how to do the slingshot manuever
- The Federation prohibits that kind of activity except in emergencies and probably wouldn't authorize it just to help Romulus
- The Vulcans couldn't give him a full starship, but he couldn't make the trip in a shuttlecraft either.
- The Jellyfish's launch was delayed somehow so he didn't begin the slingshot plan until after it was destroyed.
- Nero blamed Spock/The Federation because he misunderstood the plan, or else never really knew it in the first place.

It's just speculation of course, but it seems to fit the facts better than some of the nonsense that went on during Countdown.

 

[kkozoriz1]

If that's the case then he can go back in time and hide himself aboard the Enterprise on it's way home from 2063. Wait it out. Prevent the supernova and save Romulus and Vulcan, since the alternate universe wouldn't have come into existence.

Assuming the Enterprise-E still makes that trip in the alternate universe, and even then, assuming the Enterprise-E itself wasn't affected by the alternate timeline.

The Enterprise will be there waiting for him since the two universes share a common past. As long as you go further back than 2233 then you're in the one and only universe.

 

[UFO]

If that's the case then he can go back in time and hide himself aboard the Enterprise on it's way home from 2063. Wait it out. Prevent the supernova and save Romulus and Vulcan, since the alternate universe wouldn't have come into existence.

Assuming the Enterprise-E still makes that trip in the alternate universe, and even then, assuming the Enterprise-E itself wasn't affected by the alternate timeline.

The Enterprise will be there waiting for him since the two universes share a common past. As long as you go further back than 2233 then you're in the one and only universe.

You forgot to preface that comment with "In my opinion …", because it is very much an opinion. I mean, how does a completely separate "child universe" know that as soon as you get back to the appropriate year, it has to jump you across its "parent universe"? And how does it do it? Even if it could, when you get there, a new universe would be created, leaving the "parent universe" untouched. So you could never stop the original destruction of Romulus, in this case.

It you accept multiverse theory, then it doesn’t make sense to pick and choose which implications you are going to observe. I.e., accepting a shared past, which isn’t conclusively stated anyway as far as I know, but ignore the more obvious fact you will create a new universe whenever you travel in time, as is "alleged" to have happened in STXI! Unless the latter happens, the 1940’s will be flooded with Quarks etc (to use KingDaniel’s example)!

If you and KingDaniel want to believe in the shared past model thats fine, but I don't believe it is an established in universe fact, let-alone one without problems.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

If one were to go back before 2233, then upon arrival at that point, you will occupy a completely new reality. There will be two (at least) possible outcomes: You arrive(new reality you would occupy), you would not arrive (reality "before" your trip to the past).

 

[Set Harth]

As I've said many times, I'm fairly sure that Spock used the slingshot maneuver to fly to a point BEFORE the star had exploded, intending to absorb it before it went nova in the first place. In which case Nero, not realizing that this was the plan all along, followed him through the time warp intending to tear him a new asshole for seemingly sitting back and letting Romulus be destroyed.

If the star hasn't exploded yet, Romulus hasn't been destroyed yet - so Nero has nothing to be angry about unless he first followed Spock through the slingshot maneuver before later preceding him through the red matter black hole as depicted in the film. Nero makes no mention of this, nor does Spock. It's fairly clear this is not what the writers intended, and I'm not even sure that you could follow a ship through the slingshot maneuver. Nor is it clear why Nero would attempt to imitate the hypothetical maneuver, if he even had the capability. Depending on the location of the maneuver there's no guarantee he would have even been aware of it.

Having a permanent reset button is a problem, which is why it isn't included in the Orciverse. Given the generally low probability of anyone following Spock through the maneuver, the likelihood is that the manuever would have been used if it had been available. If the maneuver were available, that would open the door for Spock to use it once again so that Vulcan could be resurrected. Et cetera. With this plot device ultimately no bad outcome can be expected to stick, so nothing sufficiently important in the setting is ever truly at risk.

Much in the mind meld sequence is lacking in background detail.

However, there is sufficient detail in the narration and imagery to show that the red matter ejection was done after the star went supernova.

If that's the case then he can go back in time and hide himself aboard the Enterprise on it's way home from 2063. Wait it out. Prevent the supernova and save Romulus and Vulcan, since the alternate universe wouldn't have come into existence.

Assuming the Enterprise-E still makes that trip in the alternate universe, and even then, assuming the Enterprise-E itself wasn't affected by the alternate timeline.

The Enterprise will be there waiting for him since the two universes share a common past. As long as you go further back than 2233 then you're in the one and only universe.

I don't understand this. If we're discussing a hypothetical different time travel accomplished by Spock in which the alternate universe never comes into existence, then the fate of the Enterprise-E in the alternate universe should be irrelevant.

 

[UFO]

If one were to go back before 2233, then upon arrival at that point, you will occupy a completely new reality. There will be two (at least) possible outcomes: You arrive(new reality you would occupy), you would not arrive (reality "before" your trip to the past).

Essentially yes. I think you would still create a new universe/reality if you went back to say 2235 as well. Its just that after 2233 it would definitely be derived from the JJverse not the Prime Universe (assuming a shared past), or the JJverse copy of it (if not).

Both the shared and copied past models have problems, but it just seems that if branching creates a new universe it would create the past and future of it as well.