Nardpuncher
Rear Admiral
I'm just about to start the review and think it's quite sweet of him to get it ready for the nice long weekend (for me, that is...I usually work Saturdays!)
Plinkett gets REVENGE
- Thread starter Flying Spaghetti Monster
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The point about the (lack of) directing during the conversation scenes is probably the best part of the review. It really is like he's completely disinterested in any part of the film that involves human beings being filmed.
The talking/walk and talk scenes in the Prequel Trilogy always bothered and bored me and I could never quite put my finger on why but here he nails it by dissecting the blocking, pacing, the tone, the backgrounds and likening them to Soap Operas or stage-shows. That part of the review really did nail the problem with the entire PT as there's very few long "sit and talk" scenes in the OT.
^ That part is excellent, definitely.
Beyond that, there are so many things that are just awful in the PT one almost doesn't know where to start. It's really hard to believe that the same guy was responsible in any way for the original films, which are so much fun.
On the subject of Anakin:
Darth Vader is bad and loves being bad, that is his charm. "Apology accepted," after just force-choking a guy, that sort of thing. To become Darth Vader, the character can't just be tricked and blackmailed into being the Emperor's apprentice, there has to be some sense that he is enjoying the Dark Side, which really shouldn't be a problem, since it is enjoyable for the audience, too, when Vader gets to be Vader. That is the "temptation" aspect of things. Nowhere in the prequel trilogy did I ever feel that this character was actually on his way to becoming Vader, by which I mean the awesome character of at least the first two movies.
Instead of killing younglings and what not, Anakin needed to start enjoying himself a bit, embracing the Dark Side, instead of being talked into it. Overall there is just no sense of fun or life anywhere in these films.
It also never made any sense to make the Jedi celibate, especially given that Force-sensitivity is apparently hereditary, or is for Luke and Leia anyway.
That being said, I think that, yes, Anakin's story was definitely worth telling, theoretically speaking. We see Luke resist Vader's offer of power, but we never see a Jedi actually fall to the dark side (however many times it may have happened in the expanded universe or wherever), so the potential for a great story is there. What we didn't need was the whole immaculate conception, chosen one, prophecy, bringing balance to the force mumbo-jumbo.
The whole PT is garbage, but the core hints and clues from the OT could have been the basis for a great series of films: the old republic, a more civilized age, Obi Wan and Anakin's friendship, his fall to the dark side, etc.
Beyond that, there are so many things that are just awful in the PT one almost doesn't know where to start. It's really hard to believe that the same guy was responsible in any way for the original films, which are so much fun.
On the subject of Anakin:
Darth Vader is bad and loves being bad, that is his charm. "Apology accepted," after just force-choking a guy, that sort of thing. To become Darth Vader, the character can't just be tricked and blackmailed into being the Emperor's apprentice, there has to be some sense that he is enjoying the Dark Side, which really shouldn't be a problem, since it is enjoyable for the audience, too, when Vader gets to be Vader. That is the "temptation" aspect of things. Nowhere in the prequel trilogy did I ever feel that this character was actually on his way to becoming Vader, by which I mean the awesome character of at least the first two movies.
Instead of killing younglings and what not, Anakin needed to start enjoying himself a bit, embracing the Dark Side, instead of being talked into it. Overall there is just no sense of fun or life anywhere in these films.
It also never made any sense to make the Jedi celibate, especially given that Force-sensitivity is apparently hereditary, or is for Luke and Leia anyway.
That being said, I think that, yes, Anakin's story was definitely worth telling, theoretically speaking. We see Luke resist Vader's offer of power, but we never see a Jedi actually fall to the dark side (however many times it may have happened in the expanded universe or wherever), so the potential for a great story is there. What we didn't need was the whole immaculate conception, chosen one, prophecy, bringing balance to the force mumbo-jumbo.
The whole PT is garbage, but the core hints and clues from the OT could have been the basis for a great series of films: the old republic, a more civilized age, Obi Wan and Anakin's friendship, his fall to the dark side, etc.
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What was hilarious was when Plinkett cut that interview about the "bad" editing in ANH over footage of RotS. It's like he didn't learn anything.
Yeah, I mean what we see occur in the PT and comparing it to what Obi-Won says in ANH don't work together.
So let us look at this from the perspective of someone who has never heard of Star Wars and has no preconceived notions of what it should be or the order they came out in. He sits down and watches with the intent of watching them from Episode 1 to Episode 6. Aside from noticing the obvious technological, tonal, look and other differences there are from just the fact the movies were made some 30 years apart here's what he's going to see:
Anakin starts off as an annoying, precocious child, grows up to become a whiny punk who murders an entire tribe of aliens, constantly whinges about wanting to be powerful and then he again murders children, chokes his own wife and becomes "evil." Then he gets to Episode 4 where Obi-Won is remarking, wistfully, about his times with Anakin, what a great war hero and pilot Anakin was and a great man he was. The hell?! And then we get to Episode 3 where we see Anakin/Vader "redeem himself" by killing the Emperor.
None of this flows or adds up at all.
It seemed like the PT was written in it with the idea that Anakin was evil and always was evil. There's no "seduction of the Dark Side" here the guy was always a power-hungry punk. Where is the good in him? Where is this great bond and friendship between him and Obi-Won?
Making the PT about Anakin is all fine and good. He doesn't have to necessarily be a lynch-pin to the entire war and Empire but it was his story! He should've been the bestest, most good and awesomest Jedi ever. Contrary to what Plinkett says he should have been "like Jesus" not necessarily in his importance to everything but at least in his ability to be uncorrupted.
His powers as a Jedi should have been so "Jesus like" he did have the power to do awesome things. And give him this ability: Give him the ability to use the force to heal people.
Like Jesus Anakin "cures" a blind man, removes disease from a planet of sufferers or something along those lines. He loses his arm in a battle but he's so powerful in the Light Side he's able to re-grow his own arm and doesn't need the robotic prosthetic. The Clone Wars should have happened pretty much as Plinkett suggests (the "clones" being an alien race) with the Storm Troopers being force-drafted soldiers who're fed propaganda and other fascist lies to make them want to "Serve." Because as it is now calling them the "Clone Wars" makes about as much sense as calling the WWII the "Soldier Wars." Episode 2 focuses more on these wars (and as I said before Episode 1 needed to focus on Anakin as a teenager already in Jedi training not as a friggin' child) and we see more of Anakin's "good" and ability as a pilot to save and aid the sentient, sapient, individualized soldiers.
Then Episode 3 comes. Padme is pregnant (and in "my version" the Jedi aren't foolish enough to prevent their force-sensitive Jedi from spreading their genes) she eventually gives birth and raises the kids while Anakin is out being space-hero who makes it a point to stop-by and see them as much as possible. The Emperor, planning his take-over of the Galactic Civilization wants to exploit more of Anakin's powers so he gives Padme and the children incurable disease, one that Anakin's force-healing cannot cure. He feels the rage building up in him a rage that the Emperor exploits to tempt Anakin to the Dark Side as it can cure Padme and the twins. The other Jedi try and to stop Anakin, Obi-Won tries to talk some sense into him like the decades-long friend he is but Anakin's desire to heal his wife and kids is too strong, he beats all of the Jedi in a one-on-one battle (or even a multiple-on-one battle) where some "Dark Side" powers manifest themselves (like Force-Choke and Force-Lightning) now feeling this power Anakin swears allegiance to the Emperor and he then seeks out to finish what he started by tracking down Obi-Won and killing him. (The fewer Jedi there are the more powerful Anakin can get) Yoda has already gone into hiding and cannot be found.
Then we get the fight with Obi-Won, Obi-Won wins and Anakin is severly injured and burned and his "Force Healing" no longer works as he's too taken over by the Dark Side. He's presumed for-dead by Obi-Won who leaves to go into hiding himself where he learns that Padme succumbed to her illness and has passed. The twins, however, have been cured from what is presumed to be with high force-sensitivity within them. The plan is made is to put them into hiding on separate planets with someone tasked with being on that planet to watch over them. (Obi-Won, of course, elects to go with Luke.)
Anakin is recovered by the now Emperor as Anakin's killing of the Jedi and other actions have allowed the Emperor to seize his control and has the power of the brain-washed troops. Anakin is recovered, augmented with the machinery and the suit as he and the Emperor watch over the construction of a ship designed to ensure loyalty and submissiveness of the Galactic Population. Anakin learns of the deaths of his wife and also is told the children, too, died all because he still wasn't Dark-Sided enough driving Anakin to grow even more enraged and try and deepen his "evil" to become more powerful.
So let us look at this from the perspective of someone who has never heard of Star Wars and has no preconceived notions of what it should be or the order they came out in. He sits down and watches with the intent of watching them from Episode 1 to Episode 6. Aside from noticing the obvious technological, tonal, look and other differences there are from just the fact the movies were made some 30 years apart here's what he's going to see:
Anakin starts off as an annoying, precocious child, grows up to become a whiny punk who murders an entire tribe of aliens, constantly whinges about wanting to be powerful and then he again murders children, chokes his own wife and becomes "evil." Then he gets to Episode 4 where Obi-Won is remarking, wistfully, about his times with Anakin, what a great war hero and pilot Anakin was and a great man he was. The hell?! And then we get to Episode 3 where we see Anakin/Vader "redeem himself" by killing the Emperor.
None of this flows or adds up at all.
It seemed like the PT was written in it with the idea that Anakin was evil and always was evil. There's no "seduction of the Dark Side" here the guy was always a power-hungry punk. Where is the good in him? Where is this great bond and friendship between him and Obi-Won?
Making the PT about Anakin is all fine and good. He doesn't have to necessarily be a lynch-pin to the entire war and Empire but it was his story! He should've been the bestest, most good and awesomest Jedi ever. Contrary to what Plinkett says he should have been "like Jesus" not necessarily in his importance to everything but at least in his ability to be uncorrupted.
His powers as a Jedi should have been so "Jesus like" he did have the power to do awesome things. And give him this ability: Give him the ability to use the force to heal people.
Like Jesus Anakin "cures" a blind man, removes disease from a planet of sufferers or something along those lines. He loses his arm in a battle but he's so powerful in the Light Side he's able to re-grow his own arm and doesn't need the robotic prosthetic. The Clone Wars should have happened pretty much as Plinkett suggests (the "clones" being an alien race) with the Storm Troopers being force-drafted soldiers who're fed propaganda and other fascist lies to make them want to "Serve." Because as it is now calling them the "Clone Wars" makes about as much sense as calling the WWII the "Soldier Wars." Episode 2 focuses more on these wars (and as I said before Episode 1 needed to focus on Anakin as a teenager already in Jedi training not as a friggin' child) and we see more of Anakin's "good" and ability as a pilot to save and aid the sentient, sapient, individualized soldiers.
Then Episode 3 comes. Padme is pregnant (and in "my version" the Jedi aren't foolish enough to prevent their force-sensitive Jedi from spreading their genes) she eventually gives birth and raises the kids while Anakin is out being space-hero who makes it a point to stop-by and see them as much as possible. The Emperor, planning his take-over of the Galactic Civilization wants to exploit more of Anakin's powers so he gives Padme and the children incurable disease, one that Anakin's force-healing cannot cure. He feels the rage building up in him a rage that the Emperor exploits to tempt Anakin to the Dark Side as it can cure Padme and the twins. The other Jedi try and to stop Anakin, Obi-Won tries to talk some sense into him like the decades-long friend he is but Anakin's desire to heal his wife and kids is too strong, he beats all of the Jedi in a one-on-one battle (or even a multiple-on-one battle) where some "Dark Side" powers manifest themselves (like Force-Choke and Force-Lightning) now feeling this power Anakin swears allegiance to the Emperor and he then seeks out to finish what he started by tracking down Obi-Won and killing him. (The fewer Jedi there are the more powerful Anakin can get) Yoda has already gone into hiding and cannot be found.
Then we get the fight with Obi-Won, Obi-Won wins and Anakin is severly injured and burned and his "Force Healing" no longer works as he's too taken over by the Dark Side. He's presumed for-dead by Obi-Won who leaves to go into hiding himself where he learns that Padme succumbed to her illness and has passed. The twins, however, have been cured from what is presumed to be with high force-sensitivity within them. The plan is made is to put them into hiding on separate planets with someone tasked with being on that planet to watch over them. (Obi-Won, of course, elects to go with Luke.)
Anakin is recovered by the now Emperor as Anakin's killing of the Jedi and other actions have allowed the Emperor to seize his control and has the power of the brain-washed troops. Anakin is recovered, augmented with the machinery and the suit as he and the Emperor watch over the construction of a ship designed to ensure loyalty and submissiveness of the Galactic Population. Anakin learns of the deaths of his wife and also is told the children, too, died all because he still wasn't Dark-Sided enough driving Anakin to grow even more enraged and try and deepen his "evil" to become more powerful.
Off topic, I'm rewatching Deep Space 9 for the first time in years, and I'm having the same thought. There's WAY too much expositional dialog in the series that could be replaced with simple action. Gets kinda boring in spots.
I'm hoping "Kingdom of the Crystal Skulls"
I think he'll do something non-George Lucas related next but after that definitely Crystal Skulls is a great choice.
Close, but not quite. The PT and what people imagined Obi-Wan to have said in ANH don't tend to work together.
Case in point.
Episode 3, eh?
It seems you're ignoring the actual PT in favor of a bastardized version created by ignoring giant chunks of AOTC/ROTS along with the entirety of TPM. Why would you call this rewrite "the PT"?
It's in those scenes which you're conveniently ignoring due to the fact that they blow your thesis all to hell.
So you're saying the guy who we know will eventually be corrupted should have been Jesus-like in his ability to be uncorrupted? That's so contradictory it's almost brilliant!
Temis the Vorta said:
That's funny, I thought the alleged problem was that we got a dour lesson about the fragility of Anakin's psychological state, also called character focus. Just not the type of character focus certain people wanted to see ( Anakin being ANH Vader his entire life with literally zero character development, consistency with the OT be damned ). But I guess if Stoklasa says it, it must be true, right? So the spin du jour is: too much civics, too much focus on the political landscape. Right? Wait for it...
Temis the Vorta said:
Temis the Vorta said:
And the name for the episode was taken from the ROTS opening crawl.... imagine that.
Temis the Vorta said:
Who's this "we" you keep talking about? Is it the royal we? Are you in fact a monarch of some kind? That would explain a lot.
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Yeah, even if every other element in the PT had worked (haw!) the lack of a character arc for the lead character would still screw everything up. I guess we have to be happy with the arc we're getting in TCW (and I know that does no good for anyone who wanted the damn story to be in the damn movies!!!)
Every character in the PT was utterly inert, except for Palps, who is the sole dynamic character. Palps is pro-active and in charge of the story from first to last. Everyone else is reactive and clueless.
That would be okay if Palps were the main character and we were invited to root for him, despite his being evil and all. That's unusual but it's possible that format would work. But the only reason the PT exists was to tell the backstory of Vader. The backstory of the Emperor isn't worth going to all that trouble for.
I've never seen that footage before but wow was it damning. Seeing Lucas sitting on his fat ass all the time suddenly crystalizes what was wrong with the PT, at least in the directing department.
And maybe explains why TCW works so much better, since it allows Lucas to continue to sit on his fat ass, and yet actually direct scenes with dynamism and originality since it's all "blue screen" now. (Also it's very clear he's getting a lot of help with the writing so that things don't suck so terribly anymore in that department.)
It's so obvious to us, so why wasn't this obvious to Lucas? Maybe being a good little liberal, he's creeped out by/can't comprehend the part of human nature that likes being evil, enjoys it, and fantasizes about no longer having any restrictions on the unrestrained use of power.
That's a pretty creepy thing to have to admit to yourself, and before you admit it to yourself, you can't write about it. But that's the lynchpin of Anakin's story. Substituting "whiny and weak" for "loves power for its own sake" just doesn't cut it. That's not who he is, and we all know it.
There was some sci fi novelist who wrote a rant once about how Star Wars is fascist. Damn right, it's fascist! It's terrible!!!
It really brings out the worst in human nature (as well as the best). A bold director would have glommed onto that fascinating and counterintuitive aspect, and done something possibly interesting with it: create a summer popcorn flick that works on the same level as the OT, yet also works on a more sophisticated level, inviting the audience to revel in the power fantasy of Anakin's "fall." On that level, it's not a fall at all. It's an elevation to a different sense of his own self - not a "truer" self, but one that seems truer to him at the time. (The true self is what finally emerges at the end of ROTJ, after the most torturous character arc of all time.)
Lucasfilm has made billions of dollars partly from the fascist appeal of Star Wars, so it's not like it's some huge risk to be a bit more up front about it, and only the more sophisticated audience members, who would appreciate the irony, would see it anyway. Everyone else would just see the first level.
But first off, we need a series of movies that are even as competent as the OT in the basics before we start getting all meta and fancy by telling the audience that they're a bunch of Nazis for enjoying this shit at all.
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I liked that part, because it added more interest to the Anakin-Padme romance by making it "forbidden." Since getting the twins to be born is going to be a big part of the story anyway, it makes sense to arrange things so that there is dramatic tension in it, and it can serve some purpose in the story other than a purely functional one.
If it's just Anakin having a wife in the background, snore. Anakin's fall would be utterly separate from the wife being pregnant and giving birth. It would work from a story logic perspective, but it wouldn't be nearly as interesting as integrating the twins' birth into the central story.
Having the Jedi be celibate in general also makes sense if you assume a backstory where Force-sensitive people started to form dynasties of powerful families who inevitably created an oligarchy that threatened the democratic nature of the Republic in the past. I think there was some reference to that backstory in the PT, or I heard about it somehow. Celibacy is the price imposed on the Jedi for being allowed to wield unelected power.
I don't know. The prequel trilogy is so astonishingly inept that it makes for a fascinating case study on how not to tell a story. But first and foremost, the original Star Wars characters are extremely charismatic, especially Han, Obi Wan and Vader.
I think we can start with Han and ask ourselves: why was there no Han-like rebellious, irreverant character in the PT? This element of the OT just disappears entirely. Possibly this perspective is gone because Lucas was no longer able to think of his own creation with anything but reverence. It's a big problem because Star Wars (original) works in part because of the dueling charisma of Obi Wan and Han Solo, who pull Luke and the audience in opposite directions, belief and scepticism, wonder and laughter, etc. Movies like this really need both of these perspectives, in some form, to work.
Vader is awesome, charismatic and funny in the OT as well as being a menacing antagonist. Being bad is tempting and fun. Wielding power is something we all fantasize about. The PT seems to have forgotten this, and instead bends over backwards trying to motivate Anakin's fall and make it "understandable," when in reality this is not necessary because nothing is more understandable than wanting to be Darth Vader and wield power.
Alec Guinness' performance as Obi Wan is justly famous because he sells the whole "Force" spirituality in the original film. He captures our imagination with this pop mysticism that is a sort of fantasy fulfillment in tune with our ethical sensibilities. Nothing in the PT recaptures that original sense of wonder, perhaps because, as Plinkett's review suggests, nobody involved in making these films actually felt that way about the material anymore.
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Of all the things to use to nurse a hangover, revisiting all the crap of the PT wouldn't be high on my list, but I guess you know what you're doing.
That character should have been Anakin! He was always rebellious against the Jedi Order (but that shouldn't be because he's dumb, but because the Jedi really are full of it, in many ways), and Vader had a great, dry sense of humor. Why was Anakin so completely humorless?
Just as you can't envision Han falling for Palp's bullshit, Anakin shouldn't either. But he might listen to what Palps is saying and realize that it lines up well with things he's been thinking anyway.
I don't think of Obi-Wan and Han as being in opposition in the OT. After meeting Obi-Wan for a short time, Luke adopts the quest to become a Jedi largely on his own initiative because it's natural for his personality. Meanwhile, Han is off on a different character arc, learning to become less of a lone wolf.
I don't even think of Luke and Han as interacting too much, and certainly not influencing each other. Han develops into a "better" guy who might be a more natural friend for Luke, but that's because he's inspired by the Rebel Alliance despite himself, and also because he's chasing Leia. At the same time, Luke is orbiting away from normal-personhood and becoming a less accessible person who might find it hard to relate to a regular guy like Han. Which is pretty interesting, it's too bad there was never a sequel trilogy that would have dealt with their friendship as they became very different people from ANH.
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You don't need to make everybody celibate to have a story about forbidden love, though. (Plinkett even points out in passing that it seems as though Padmé is obeying some sort of oath of celibacy at times as well. Why?)
So, yeah, you wouldn't just have Anakin and Padmé happily married. Maybe she's some wealthy senator's wife, I don't know. Think Lancelot and Guinevere. These are knights after all.
It makes sense that jealousy might be a powerful motivator for Anakin's fall, and at some point in RotS Anakin does suddenly seem to be jealous of Obi Wan, but this makes no sense given what we know about the Jedi.
Incidentally, as far as Jedi celibacy is concerned, from a more fanwanky point of view, it always struck me as odd for two reasons.
1) In Empire, Obi Wan says Luke is their last hope, and Yoda says no, there is another (Leia). But, if the Jedi have been finding force-sensitive individuals in the general population for centuries (millenia?), if that is in fact their main way of recruiting Jedi, then there's really no reason why Luke and Leia would be their only chance to train another Jedi.
2) By recruiting force-sensitive beings from across the galaxy for millenia and demanding that they be celibate, wouldn't the Jedi be essentially breeding force-sensitivity out of the galactic population? Or high midi-chlorian (sp?) counts or whatever? Meh, it just seems odd, and anyway unnecessary from a storytelling point of view. For example, if Jedi weren't celibate, then Anakin might actually have a reason to be jealous of Obi Wan.
I think the point about their presenting these two competing points of view to the audience throughout ANH is most important, but I do think they have a similar effect on Luke in the early going ("hokey beliefs and ancient religions are no match for a good blaster pistol," etc.), though Obi Wan wins out in the end, even when it comes to Han himself, i.e. belief is winning out over scepticism, "May the force be with you," and so on. That is why Obi Wan is so important in the original movie as he is responsible for selling the whole mythology to Luke, but mostly to the audience, and of course Alec Guinness did a phenomenal job with this. But it's also important that the voice of scepticism be there (even if Han is won over to an extent in the end), because that same voice is going to be active in the audience's mind anyway, so the film itself has to recognize that.
From that point of view, the PT suffers from the same problem as late TNG-era Trek in that it has stopped asking itself "Why would the audience care about this?" and started assuming the audience will automatically care.
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It's simpler to just integrate the forbidden love story with the Jedi-rules story. The Jedi rules should be onerous, to give Anakin more of a motive to rebel, so that synchs up in a nice, streamlined way.
With only six hours to tell the story, it's best to find ways to simplify. The more complicated it gets, the more time you have to devote to characters explaining things for the benefit of the audience, which can get awkward fast.
Padme's behavior is a big problem in the story. She should know that there are good reasons for the Jedi celibacy rules (the Jedi shouldn't be so arbitrary that they're making up cruel rules for no reason), so she must realize that having a relationship with Anakin is wrong and she's being selfish and behaving dangerously. It's difficult but not entirely impossible to contrive a story where Padme doesn't come off as so oblivious and irresponsible - torn between her great passion for Anakin and her sense of duty, blah blah, that kind of thing.
This could play into her death at the end - she should kill herself when she realizes that she just destroyed the Republic by defying the rules and marrying a Jedi. The catastrophe that occurred is exactly what the rules were invented to prevent. And I mean kill herself actively, not just "decide to die."
Yes, Padme is the true villain of the story.But then we run smack into another problem, the insistence that Star Wars be puritannical and sexless, because Padme's motivation has to have a serious sexual component. She wants to be the dutiful Senator but another part of her is dragging her in the opposite direction. And in that case, we also need an actor playing Anakin who is plausibly sexually attractive, not an unappealing idiot who looks like a girl.
That can be explained away if the Force makes sure there's always X% of Force-sensitives spontaneously being born, even to families with no genetic history of it. Or maybe there are so many Force-sensitives that not to curtail their population would result in a dangerous number running around. The Jedi need to train pretty much everyone who is Force sensitive, right? Otherwise, you have potential Sith and servants of the Sith popping up all over the place.
I cringed at the jealousy angle (at least there wasn't a love triangle for real), so I'm in favor of anything that would squelch soap opera elements that aren't even needed. Anakin falls to the Dark Side because he loves power, nice and simple. He doesn't need to be trying to save Padme or thinking she's fooling around with Obi-Wan, or a naive idiot, or anything else.
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