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Plinkett gets REVENGE

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It's interesting that from what I can gleam from TPM's Behind the scenes stuff (Mainly from the old Insider's Guide CD-rom, which was a gold mine of BTS material) is that George originally intended for Jar-Jar to be sort of like Han, even sporting a blaster and speaking regular English. However somehow he evolved into the annoying character we got.


There was also a dropped element of AOTC that would have Jar-Jar being a more dignified senator who has learned better english (or Basic as the EU calls English). However in the finished film there's really no sign of this.


There's also some early script stuff where Obi-Wan is the sole discoverer of Anakin, with Qui-Gon added later as a second Jedi to face Darth Maul but not really important to the story (Hence, things are more in line with what the OT says); and also small hints of a possible love triangle between Obi-Wan, Anakin and Padme.


I think perhaps TPM started out as a good concept but Lucas perhaps lost the 'soul' of the script as he got more and more obsessed with what CG could do.
 
Sadly, half of the people who occasionally say stuff like "May the force be with you" haven't even seen Scarface (BTW, I bumped on it on one of Croatian channels just this night).

BTW, everyone you mentioned carries certain weight (especially Indy), but there is something about Yoda, Obi-Wan and Luke that transcends the idea of a modern pop-culture phenomenon. These are virtually mythological characters, a modern day equivalents of heroes like Odysseus, Perseus, King Arthur, Merlin etc...
Do you live in Croatia? That would explain it. Cultural references are specific to, well, culture. :D I live in San Francisco, which probably increases the percentage of Wizard of Oz references versus anyplace else. I don't hear anyone quote the likes of Odysseus, Perseus, King Arthur, or Merlin. I can't even think of what they'd be quoted as saying.

However, a friend of mine occasionally mentions how a serious business he worked for (some kind of nonprofit foundation) quoted Yoda's "Do or do not! There is no try!" on their annual report. He has never gotten over how completely idiotic he found that. :rommie: This may have something to do with how idiotic he found the people working there in general, though.
 
You mean, like when people make up conspiracies about the number 47 popping out everywhere, while it in fact shows up just as often as any other double-digit number?

It's just that I'm not sure it does, really. Just like I'm not sure that "It's just you" is a valid argument. I'm also a huge Trek fan, and I don't see/hear half as many Star Trek references than SW. Actually, I think that ratio would be closer to 3:1, if not higher.

Certainly SW is a very successful and prominent piece of pop culture, but the aspect of the original post I was responding to was the following:

... there is something about Yoda, Obi-Wan and Luke that transcends the idea of a modern pop-culture phenomenon.

I don't think there is. SW is simply a very successful pop culture phenonemon. One of the most successful perhaps, but there's nothing there that transcends popular culture. At best I guess you might say that SW epitomizes modern popular culture with its successful branding and merchandising. In passing, I can only imagine how successful it would be now if the PT had actually been good.
 
Yeah Star Wars is really just one of a huge jumble of pop culture influences rattling around in everyone's brains. If I had to bet on whether "May the Force be with you" is more or less well known than "Beam me up, Scotty" or "Play it again, Sam" or "There's no place like home" or "I'll be baaahk," I might as well flip a coin.

But I definitely think this is all down to local cultural variation. For instance:

Similarly, Sherlock Holmes is undoubtedly the biggest modern-day symbol of wit.
I've never associated Sherlock Holmes with wit. He's an archetypal detective, but if I wanted to make reference to that archetype, I might go for Columbo instead. I can't think of anything witty Holmes ever said. The only quote I can dredge up is "The game is afoot!" which isn't exactly witty.

If someone asked me to "quote something witty," my brain would frantically zoom to some movie from the 1930s with people like Fred Astaire, Katherine Hepburn and Myrna Loy lounging around, or possibly a Noel Coward play, and when I drew a blank on actual quotes from those various associations, I'd end up with a few scattered Cole Porter lyrics, or maybe the wit and wisdom of Yogi Berra.

In passing, I can only imagine how successful it would be now if the PT had actually been good.

I think it's reached the level where it doesn't actually have to be good to keep surviving and being permutated across the culture. Which may be why Lucas didn't bother to make the PT good. What difference would it have made to the bottom line?
 
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I don't hear anyone quote the likes of Odysseus, Perseus, King Arthur, or Merlin. I can't even think of what they'd be quoted as saying.
LOL, of course you can't, they're not quotable. They are mythological icons that symbolize many different concepts, for example Odysseus symbolizes someone on a hard journey (like a sick person whose stressful road to health or death was his personal Odyssey). Merlin is, of course, an archetypal wizard and a mentor (much like Kenobi or Gandalf), while Arthur could symbolize a man on a quest (holly grail).

If I had to bet on whether "May the Force be with you" is more or less well known than "Beam me up, Scotty" or "Play it again, Sam" or "There's no place like home" or "I'll be baaahk," I might as well flip a coin.
"Beam me up, Scotty"? Uhm, no. Star Trek really isn't THAT popular globally as Trekkies would like to believe (hence the poor oversees ticket sales of ST XI).

Croatia is different thought, Trek has always been big here. Probably because there was always some of it on out national TV network.

"Play it again, Sam"? I'd bet that at least 50% of people under age 25 wouldn't know where that quote is from, even though they heard it somewhere. Many people I know have some kind of an aversion to black and white movies. Very sad (disturbing even), but true.

"I'll be baaahk"? Yeah, that one is possibly even bigger than "May the force...".

Similarly, Sherlock Holmes is undoubtedly the biggest modern-day symbol of wit.
I've never associated Sherlock Holmes with wit. He's an archetypal detective, but if I wanted to make reference to that archetype, I might go for Columbo instead.
Perhaps my choice of the word "wit" wasn't the best... I meant that Holmes is a symbol of a sharp intellect and perceptiveness.
 
"Beam me up, Scotty"? Uhm, no. Star Trek really isn't THAT popular globally as Trekkies would like to believe (hence the poor oversees ticket sales of ST XI).
As I keep saying, cultural touchstones are an example of local culture. Here in San Francisco, I wouldn't be surprised if Star Trek and Star Wars were roughly equal (even though Lucasfilm is a local company with headquarters a couple miles away from me). Because of this, you can't generalize what people will regard as relevant touchstones for them.

But we've wandered pretty far off topic. It's less than a week before The Clone Wars returns!!! :D This Friday at 8:30pm, Cartoon Network. Who's watching it?
 
Prancer The Fifth - Just stop trying to convince everyone what is more culturally significant. You just wrote in your the last post that you are from Croatia. Most of the rest of us are from the U.S., or somewhere else. We will all have a different cultural prism that we see pop culture through.

Besides, "my friends think/say" is pretty limiting an extremely subjective way of judging anything.
 
i might agree with the statement that Sherlock Holmes is the biggest modern-day symbol of wit...if this were the Victorian Era :p
 
Well, then let me make it pertinent again...

No mention of the suddenly pointy lightsabers?!?!

Correct sabers:

mustafarduel7.jpg





WTF IS THIS SHIT:


sw8b.jpg
 
Obviously they have different focusing deflection crystals in them. It's all in the Star Wars Technical Manual.
 
I now I'm not alone in engaging in the creative exercise of trying to to figure out how to make the prequels better. That being said, Plinkett had a point in saying that you could either go with a focus on the Republic giving way to the Empire or with a focus on Anakin. With that being said, we're pretty much all in agreement that the prequels screwed that up, majorly.

To me, the first mistake was with The Phantom Menance taking place when Anakin was a boy. We're "introduced" to Anakin as an annoying young kid and not given anything to make us like him. In fact, his childhood (aside from "The Prophecy") is so unimportant, it's only mentioned once, in passing, at the beginning of Attack of the Clones. Why spend so much time showing him as a kid, to not have it bear any relevance to the overall "plot" of the prequels?

Furthermore, while Plinkett did show how overboard they went with referencing the original trilogy, I'd say they didn't go far enough. Or more to the point, they focused on events that were, for the most part, designed to simply remind us of the original trilogy, instead of creating parallels (in the "All of this has happened before and all of this will happen again" manner). Since Luke was the central figure of the original trilogy and Anakin is the central figure of the prequels, why not frame the entire prequels as a mirror of Luke's heroic journey?

To me, the heroic journey is meant to show how, even though the hero dealt with a lot of tragedy and hardships, they overcome them to claim the role of hero. The journey shows the difference, at least in fiction, between a hero and a villain is that a hero faces the bad things that happen to them and decides to persevere through them, while the villain uses them as an excuse for what they do. Growing up without his parents, having the Empire kill his only remaining family, seeing Vader kill his mentor all could have served as reasons for Luke to turn evil and take it out on others.

Thus, I think we should have met Anakin as a teenager, discovering his Force powers (none of that, "He's too old to train" business, I would have had the Force be something that developed during adolesence, which makes seeing his training more interesting, having these powers and learning to control them at a point in time when, biologically your body is making you irrational through puberty. Besides, the younglings creeped me out as they kind of reminded me of the Children of the Corn, with telekinetic powers and stoicism.

Like Luke, Anakin would have faced tragedy, though he would have lashed out more than Luke. And instead of a competitive/angsty relationship, I would have had Anakin and Obi-Wan have a surrogate father/son relationship (the prequels, especially Revenge of the Sith always had them acting like brothers). I also would not have Obi-Wan as the one who cripples Anakin. The more I think about it, the less that makes sense given their meeting in ANH, as it should have been more emotionally charged for both of them, being their first meeting since Obi-Wan cut off his limbs and left him to die.

The Clone Wars also would be different, as I always envisioned the clones being the enemies. The Droid Army, which I'm sure were there to keep the violence restrained, furthered the consequence-less atmosphere of the prequels. Besides, the wars are often named after the guys we were fighting (possibly to make it easier for history students, as you don't have to wonder who we were fighting in the Vietnam War, though it's not just a recent thing, for instance, the French and Indian War). We generally don't name wars after the guys on our side.

As for the rise of the Empire, that's a tricky issue. Somehow, Darth Vader needs to end up serving Emperor Palpatine, so he has to be involved somehow. However, it takes him 19 years to dissolve the Senate. And, while the Senate was mostly for show, it does indicate that the Republic's decline and the Empire's rise took a while. After basically granting him every power possible in the prequels, one wonders why Palpatine felt the need to keep the Senate for 19 years before finally doing away with it. I think it would be more interesting if Palpatine took longer to become Emperor, taking a while to convince the public of the Jedi's betrayal.
 
Think Lancelot and Guinevere. These are knights after all.

Ooh. I like. I'm gonna take that idea and run with it, if you don't mind. Here's how I would've done it:

There's a sort of benevolent royalty thing going on in the SW universe (Leia was a princess after all). There's a King, and the Jedi Knights are like the Knights of the Round Table. Anakin's one of these knights (his last name is NOT Skywalker, that's a cover name for Luke, like Organa was for Leia). He falls in love and has an affair with the Queen (as you say, Lancelot and Guinevere, here). The Republic is at war. The Clone War. I don't know what I'd make the Clone War yet, but it would be a lot more interesting than Jango Fett clones in Stormtrooper outfits.

Palpatine's obviously leading the forces that are attacking the Republic.
The Republic is losing the war. Anakin tries to convince her to flee with him, to escape the war. She decides to stick with her husband, the King. This enrages Anakin, who had harbored a growing jealousy (a powerful motivator). Or perhaps the King catches them together, and HE flies into a rage and attacks Anakin. Either way, Anakin ends up killing the King, accident or not, by way of his very first Force Choke. Guinevere - I mean, Padme, only I'd give her a less stupid name than Padme, has been whisked away to a place of safety (Alderaan) by her father's advisor (Bail Organa) before the killing took place, so she didn't see it happen (nor did anyone else). Anakin more or less seizes power because all the other Jedi are out on the battle lines, telling the story that the King took his own life out of despair of the losing war.

He tries to believe he's still a good man and doing the right thing, for the Republic. But then we invoke some Shakespeare - Anakin's got the blood on his hands that will never wash away... The Dark Side is nibbling at his soul... He starts ordering the armies of the Republic into foolish battles which they have no hope of winning, etc. Everything is going to hell, and Anakin grows into a madman. He's killed his King, lost his love, etc.

...and then, at some point, the King's ghost shows up and tells Obi-Wan what happened (Jedi can do this!) More Shakespeare :)

Obi-Wan musters the Jedi to confront Anakin. There's a big showdown, with the Jedi Knights striding in the front door of the palace, lightsabers at their belts. Anakin rises from the throne to face them. Says nothing. Then, out of the shadows behind the throne steps... Palpatine. Turns out, to save his hide, Anakin signed a treaty with Palpatine or surrendered outright. It was a trap. A fight ensues, most of the Jedi don't make it out alive. Obi-Wan manages to get away.

This is how Palpatine ends up in power, with Vader his 'First Knight'. Moff Tarkin would be seen as Palpatine's top general during the invasion.

The deposed Queen, of course, discovers she is pregnant. She dies at some point, but not during childbirth. She lives long enough to be remembered by Leia as 'pretty and sad'. She is eventually killed by... BA DA DUM... Vader, seeking revenge. Obi-Wan and Organa manage to get the kids away. Vader never knew he had children, until The Empire Strikes Back, when he senses it.

Vader is maimed at some point due to a rebel attack, or whatever, perhaps led by Obi-Wan, but that's not terribly important.

Yoda would never be pictured fighting. He was always a little weird dude on Degobah where Jedi were sent, as a sort of pilgrimage, to be trained. Because watching Yoda fight was just stupid, he's better off as the wise little guy in the jungle.

Most importantly, Anakin's never a kid or whiny teenager. He's an adult - junior to Obi-Wan, but not a kid. Lancelot-gone-bad.

Anyway, there you have it, minus all the details, of course. Classic fantasy themes (Arthurian legend, Shakespeare), and a somewhat believable account of how a good man can descend into madness and evil, finally making a deal with the Devil.

That took ten minutes to come up with, and it's only one of a thousand different plots that would've been infinitely more interesting than having to hear teenaged Anakin whine about his ideas about politics. Get some decent screenwriters to flesh it out, Peter Jackson to direct (because the LOTR movies were closer in tone to the OT than the prequels are), and REAL, ON-LOCATION filming instead of CGI everything (something else Peter Jackson did well)...
 
Reading some of these ideas almost makes me happy with the stuff we got (NHF)

BTW, Peter Jackson? To be honest, he really isn't that good of a director really.

I mean, LOTR turned out great, sure, but I guess that's because he and his gang poured a lot of love into these movies, and they had pretty good source material to work with (and this is where Jackson really excelled, in adapting it for the big screen, because God only knows how film-unfriendly these books were)...

I don't remember Heavenly creatures all that well anymore (been a while), but everything else Jackson did was, well, crap. King Kong was lackluster as lackluster gets, and The Lovely Bones was... My God, Star Wars prequels all look like The Godfather in comparison (and that's an understatement).

That being said, my director choices for the prequels would have been Steven Spielberg, Ron Howard and Richard Donner.
 
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