Why the Resistance to Starfleet as a Military?

[Expendable]

Actually from what I saw that seemed to be exactly the case, even if it wasn't nearly as effective as the modern military.

Really, the modern military doesn't have nearly the same sort of mission that Starfleet has. Everything "scientific" about the modern military including development is outsourced.

Everything Starfleet does is in-house. That's a huge difference and creates a different culture.

 

[Vincent Law]

Your information is incorrect. While much of the development is indeed outsourced on a contract basis, not all of it is. The branches are all different, or course, but the Air Force and the Navy still do plenty of their own research, and contrary to popular belief not all of it revolves around finding better ways to kill one another.

As to your suggestion that Starfleet does everything "in house," that is somewhat contradicted by the presence of civilian research vessels that the Enterprise would have to rescue from time to time.

 

[Expendable]

Your information is incorrect. While much of the development is indeed outsourced on a contract basis, not all of it is. The branches are all different, or course, but the Air Force and the Navy still do plenty of their own research, and contrary to popular belief not all of it revolves around finding better ways to kill one another.

As to your suggestion that Starfleet does everything "in house," that is somewhat contradicted by the presence of civilian research vessels that the Enterprise would have to rescue from time to time.

Let's see if I can clarify my position.

1) Starfleet is unlike the modern military because the VAST MAJORITY of development occurs internally. New engine design, new shielding modifications, new medical devices are all developed via Starfleet.
2) The presence of civilian research vessels is a given. No one said that the military has a monopoly on research.
3) The increased levels in both breadth and depth of research changes the values, mission, and purpose of Starfleet into a vastly different organization than we have today. To get the same sort of organization you would have to place the full breath and depth of the federal government into military service.

 

[marygrace]

Starfleet is obviously a military. We've all seen it.

It is not, however, militaristic. Big difference.

yes,, I agree ,, it is for the military...

 

[Vincent Law]

Let's see if I can clarify my position.

1) Starfleet is unlike the modern military because the VAST MAJORITY of development occurs internally. New engine design, new shielding modifications, new medical devices are all developed via Starfleet.
2) The presence of civilian research vessels is a given. No one said that the military has a monopoly on research.
3) The increased levels in both breadth and depth of research changes the values, mission, and purpose of Starfleet into a vastly different organization than we have today. To get the same sort of organization you would have to place the full breath and depth of the federal government into military service.

Given the nature of the government as portrayed, that could certainly be possible.

 

[T'Girl]

the VAST MAJORITY of development occurs internally. New engine design ...

Warp drive design engineer Doctor Leah Brahm was a civilian, there no indication that her organization was a part of Starfleet, most likely a civilian contractor. Far from designing new engines, the Starfleet officers that we've seen merely modify existing engine designs, the one time a Starfleet engineer created a new engine, Torres and the quantum slipstream drive, she couldn't make it work.

When Dr. Brahm inspected Commander LaForge's modifications of the Enterprise Dee's engines, she was highly critical of them.

purpose of Starfleet into a vastly different organization than we have today.

Except, in any discussion of the military, you really have to look at the their actions and duties stretching back into historical times. Explorers Lewis and Clarke were both Army Captains, European and Chinese militaries did extensive explorations of this world.

To get the same sort of organization you would have to place the full breath and depth of the federal government into military service

Federation acivities, as we've seen them, do seem to be carried out by Starfleet.

.

 

[neozeks]

There are many countries in which the Coast Guard isn't considered part of the military.

True, but those Coast Guards are also organized differently - no military ranks, no military discipline, they don't participate in combat operations, they don't fall under the military justice system. Those are the things that make both the USCG and Starfleet military organizations.

I'm just saying, you ask any Starfleet officer and they'll say they're explorers first, and soldiers second. That's why Starfleet doesn't consider itself a military organization.

I'm not so sure of that. Kirk very much considered himeself a soldier. So did Nog, IIRC. The only evidence we have that Starfleet itself doesn't consider itself a military is that one Picard line. But that's just plain bad writing.

But even within the numbered fleets and during times of war, the function isn't exactly "military" as we know it today.

I think the best way to phrase it would be to say that Starfleet's function is more than just typical military. A military plus, as I remember someone on these boards saying it once.

 

[Expendable]

the VAST MAJORITY of development occurs internally. New engine design ...

Warp drive design engineer Doctor Leah Brahm was a civilian, there no indication that her organization was a part of Starfleet, most likely a civilian contractor. Far from designing new engines, the Starfleet officers that we've seen merely modify existing engine designs, the one time a Starfleet engineer created a new engine, Torres and the quantum slipstream drive, she couldn't make it work.

When Dr. Brahm inspected Commander LaForge's modifications of the Enterprise Dee's engines, she was highly critical of them.

purpose of Starfleet into a vastly different organization than we have today.

Except, in any discussion of the military, you really have to look at the their actions and duties stretching back into historical times. Explorers Lewis and Clarke were both Army Captains, European and Chinese militaries did extensive explorations of this world.

To get the same sort of organization you would have to place the full breath and depth of the federal government into military service

Federation acivities, as we've seen them, do seem to be carried out by Starfleet.

.

Yes, Leah Brahams was a civilian who specialized in warp design. And? If you note LaForge was required to modify her design to make it work. Plus how great was her design to begin with when it rips the very fabric of the space it travels?

Scotty, LaForge, O'Brien, Torres, all MAKE things work. They fix the mistakes of the likes of Brahams. Without quality engineers, the superb designs of Brahams would never work.

So to poohpooh their contributions as merely happenstance is less than honest.

You bring up the military in a historic context. If that is to be the case, then the military should be controlling the government, not the other way around. That's not the case in Star Trek. It's clearly distinguished from all earth military.

You talk about how the activities of the Federation are carried out by Starfleet, making my point. The military is not the EPA, the IRS, the Department of Interior or State. In that respect the modern military is only the smallest bird dropping in the shadow of the idea of Starfleet.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The only evidence we have that Starfleet itself doesn't consider itself a military is that one Picard line. But that's just plain bad writing.

Then again, Picard hardly speaks for all of Starfleet. Just because HE doesn't think Starfleet is military doesn't mean it actually is not. He could just be in denial...

I mean, Picard is known for grandiose peacenik speechifying, anyway. Look at how he treated those people from the 20th century in "The Neutral Zone", or the diatribe he gives to Lily Sloane in ST:FC.

 

[Anwar]

Let's be fair and remember the greater context: In "Neutral Zone" Picard had to deal with a potential Romulan Invasion, and the rest of the crew were nice to the 20th Century folks except the businessman (who was a jerk anyways). In FC he had to deal with the Borg, he had to explain their differences very quickly so they could continue, you know, avoiding the Borg.

And frankly, any folks from their present time will always consider themselves superior to any of their earlier counterparts. If a bunch of 20th Century folks ran into guys from the Middle Ages surely they'd think that they were the superior bunch, that's just being human.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ That takes on a whole new meaning when we consider that the 'businessman' in that episode was originally supposed to be Harry Mudd (but Roger C. Carmel's death required a massive rewrite).

 

[Tomalak]

I'm not so sure of that. Kirk very much considered himeself a soldier. So did Nog, IIRC. The only evidence we have that Starfleet itself doesn't consider itself a military is that one Picard line. But that's just plain bad writing.

I guess it's perspective. Nog and O'Brien often called themselves soldiers, but they entered Starfleet in times of war, so their view was very much clouded by that. Sisko is another, but he apparently fought in the Tzenkethi war, and his wife was killed by the Borg - that's going to affect your outlook dramatically.

Those considering themselves explorers, Picard and most of the D-crew, Janeway most prominently, must have joined up when there was a time of peace with the Klingons, the Romulans were quiet, and aside from a few border skirmishes with the Cardassians and Tzenkethi, there didn't appear to be much conflict. Janeway of course was a scientist, so she's going to push the exploration angle more than someone like Worf.

The only evidence we have that Starfleet itself doesn't consider itself a military is that one Picard line. But that's just plain bad writing.

Then again, Picard hardly speaks for all of Starfleet. Just because HE doesn't think Starfleet is military doesn't mean it actually is not. He could just be in denial...

Or the Starfleet he signed up for has changed. He used to command the Stargazer, a ship exploring the far-reaches of the known galaxy. The Enterprise-D was supposed to do the same, albeit in an even less militaristic manner, given his ship was full of civvies and kids.

They ended up pootling about Federation space for the most part, perhaps an example of a Starfleet policy shift. Maybe this is due to the re-emergence of the Romulans, the first real contact with the Ferengi, the conspiracy bugs, the Borg etc... Then the Dominion turns up and Starfleet faces war with the Klingons for a while too.

Picard ends up on a battleship, armed to the teeth, as far away from the Enterprise-D's original mission as it was possible to be. He's probably pissed off. I would be.

 

[Vincent Law]

Yes, Leah Brahams was a civilian who specialized in warp design. And? If you note LaForge was required to modify her design to make it work.

Actually it worked fine. What LaForge did was to make it work to allow the ship to escape that trap it had become trapped in, and he used design changes that had been proposed for the next class starship by Dr. Brahams and her team.

Really, though, this simply illustrates that Starfleet does in fact contract out design work to civilians. I'm glad this was brought up, as I had completely forgotten about this example.

As for your point about the military controlling the government, I'm afraid that argument does not have a logical basis. The Federation is shown to have a civilian government which controls a military in the same fashion as the United States' government. Actually, I can't even understand where your supposition comes from. How does the fact that the militaries of various nations have historically been responsible for exploration somehow lead to the conclusion that the military should be leading the government? This does not follow; please explain.

 

[The Wormhole]

I'm not so sure of that. Kirk very much considered himeself a soldier. So did Nog, IIRC. The only evidence we have that Starfleet itself doesn't consider itself a military is that one Picard line. But that's just plain bad writing.

The Starfleet is not the military thing was really played out during Enterprise, especially when the MACOs were introduced. In fact, the the episode The Expanse when we get the first hints of the MACOs being assigned to the ship, they refer to the MACOs as "the military." Which makes about as much as sense as a Navy officer referring to the Marines as "the military" but whatever.

 

[Robert DeSoto]

I'm not so sure of that. Kirk very much considered himeself a soldier. So did Nog, IIRC. The only evidence we have that Starfleet itself doesn't consider itself a military is that one Picard line. But that's just plain bad writing.

I guess it's perspective. Nog and O'Brien often called themselves soldiers, but they entered Starfleet in times of war, so their view was very much clouded by that. Sisko is another, but he apparently fought in the Tzenkethi war, and his wife was killed by the Borg - that's going to affect your outlook dramatically.

Those considering themselves explorers, Picard and most of the D-crew, Janeway most prominently, must have joined up when there was a time of peace with the Klingons, the Romulans were quiet, and aside from a few border skirmishes with the Cardassians and Tzenkethi, there didn't appear to be much conflict. Janeway of course was a scientist, so she's going to push the exploration angle more than someone like Worf.

The only evidence we have that Starfleet itself doesn't consider itself a military is that one Picard line. But that's just plain bad writing.

Then again, Picard hardly speaks for all of Starfleet. Just because HE doesn't think Starfleet is military doesn't mean it actually is not. He could just be in denial...

Or the Starfleet he signed up for has changed. He used to command the Stargazer, a ship exploring the far-reaches of the known galaxy. The Enterprise-D was supposed to do the same, albeit in an even less militaristic manner, given his ship was full of civvies and kids.

They ended up pootling about Federation space for the most part, perhaps an example of a Starfleet policy shift. Maybe this is due to the re-emergence of the Romulans, the first real contact with the Ferengi, the conspiracy bugs, the Borg etc... Then the Dominion turns up and Starfleet faces war with the Klingons for a while too.

Picard ends up on a battleship, armed to the teeth, as far away from the Enterprise-D's original mission as it was possible to be. He's probably pissed off. I would be.

It's true. The characters define themselves differently on their perspectives. OBrien called himself a soldier when he was on the Rutledge and the Federation was at war with the Cardassians. But on DS9, before the war began with the Dominion, OBrien says hes not a soldier anymore, hes an engineer now. But I think this is kinda contradictory since he is still wearing the same uniform. Not like he resigned from Starfleet to work at a civilian engineering firm.

And when Kirk told the Organians hes a soldier, the Federation had just gone to war with the Klingon Empire.

Nog on the other hand wanted to be a soldier long before the war started. He's the typical young guy who signs up looking for honor and glory. Like when he brought an Enterprise-E phaser rifle on a salvage mission when the rest of the engineering staff only had regular hand phasers. Even the security detail was just using standard issue rifles.

Even Picard, on his new battleship Enterprise-E made a joke to his crew about how they used to be explorers, but not anymore.

Janeway and her crew, of course look at themselves as explorers since they are a bit too far away to participate in any military operations.

Archer started off 100% as an explorer. He didn't even want some of the weapons on his ship because he didn't want to make peaceful contact in "a battleship". But in the end, he wanted all that firepower and more. He started to think more like a soldier. But he was adamant to his crew that after the Xindi threat was over, the Enterprise go back to being what they started out as, explorers.

Reed who comes from a military family disappointed his folks back home about joining a ship of exploration. But he knew'd they think differently when the Enterprise was sent on a combat mission to save Earth itself.

So I guess in general, Starfleet officers think of themselves as a bunch of well armed explorers. Until a war breaks out. Then suddenly they're all soldiers.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I'm not so sure of that. Kirk very much considered himeself a soldier. So did Nog, IIRC. The only evidence we have that Starfleet itself doesn't consider itself a military is that one Picard line. But that's just plain bad writing.

The Starfleet is not the military thing was really played out during Enterprise, especially when the MACOs were introduced. In fact, the the episode The Expanse when we get the first hints of the MACOs being assigned to the ship, they refer to the MACOs as "the military." Which makes about as much as sense as a Navy officer referring to the Marines as "the military" but whatever.

IIRC, originally "military" refered to landforces only. Now it refers to all armed forces. I guess thats why we have a Military Academy at West Point and a Naval Academy at Annapolis. I think the MACOS coming aboard the Enterprise is more like an US Army unit being assigned to a US Navy vessel in terms of organizational rivalry. Marines are actually part of the US Department of the Navy.

 

[Vincent Law]

The Starfleet is not the military thing was really played out during Enterprise, especially when the MACOs were introduced. In fact, the the episode The Expanse when we get the first hints of the MACOs being assigned to the ship, they refer to the MACOs as "the military." Which makes about as much as sense as a Navy officer referring to the Marines as "the military" but whatever.

One must also take at least two things into consideration:

First, the Starfleet seen on Enterprise was not the same organization as the Federation Starfleet seen in TOS and the other series and movies. It was an Earth only organization.

Second, I still cannot help but note the lack of any space borne military force. Why would the MACOs have to hitch a ride on a civilian ship? If the Enterprise was a civilian ship, why was it participating in a military action, and why were its civilian personnel carrying out this action rather than the military personnel who were on their ship?

 

[Tomalak]

It's true. The characters define themselves differently on their perspectives. OBrien called himself a soldier when he was on the Rutledge and the Federation was at war with the Cardassians. But on DS9, before the war began with the Dominion, OBrien says hes not a soldier anymore, hes an engineer now. But I think this is kinda contradictory since he is still wearing the same uniform. Not like he resigned from Starfleet to work at a civilian engineering firm.

I suppose he means he was tactical officer on the Rutledge, whereas now he's an engineer, not a frontline soldier. Obviously he fights when he must, but it's something he'd rather avoid.

 

[T'Girl]

First, the Starfleet seen on Enterprise was not the same organization as the Federation Starfleet seen in TOS and the other series and movies. It was an Earth only organization.

Although during TOS, Starfleet still seemed to be far more heavily tied to Earth, than to the Federation.

Second ... If the Enterprise was a civilian ship, why was it participating in a military action

The argument there is that the Enterprise had the most advances engines of any Earth ship available. Earth's miitary ships (if any) should have also been sent into the Expanse, even if they would have been trailing the faster Enterprise.

The NX-01 was a government ship, certainly not a civilian one, the then Starfleet not being a private organization (which would have been interesting). Realistically Archer should have been removed and replaced with a actual military Captain before the ship was sent into the Expanse, the Enterprise retaining perhaps only it's engineering crew.

 

[Anwar]

In TOS the implication was that the Federation was really the "Earth Federation", that humans invented Warp Drive all on their own and merely invited other alien species to join them as weaker partners in the Human organization. In other words it was a benign Terran Empire, not a true multi-species cooperative.

This got changed between TOS and TNG.