Why the Resistance to Starfleet as a Military?

[T'Girl]

In TOS the implication was that the Federation was really the "Earth Federation", that humans invented Warp Drive all on their own and merely invited other alien species to join them as weaker partners in the Human organization. In other words it was a benign Terran Empire, not a true multi-species cooperative.

In the 23rd century Federation and later in the 24th century Federation as well, there appears that there are a relatively small number of heavy, influential power players, Earth and Vulcan being two predominate examples. If the Federation were simply a "Earth Federation" (or Empire) then the events of Journey to Babel wouldn't have occurred, Earth would have just rammed through their choice on the matter, no conference, no assemblage.

I never received the impression that the Federation was a Earth Empire, but I did get the distinct impression that Earth under took activities separate from the Federation and that the Enterprise was one of the ships that engaged in those activities. Also that Earth had it's own bases, outposts, colonies and interests, again separate from the Federation.

You can retcon it all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that Kirk frequently referred to the Enterprise as a Earth ship. That's in-universe.

It kind of where I arrived at the Federation really not being a true government and instead a interstellar organization, or to borrow Anwar's phrase, a "multi-species cooperative."

 

[neozeks]

Second, I still cannot help but note the lack of any space borne military force. Why would the MACOs have to hitch a ride on a civilian ship? If the Enterprise was a civilian ship, why was it participating in a military action, and why were its civilian personnel carrying out this action rather than the military personnel who were on their ship?

Well, considering how new to the galactic scene and weak Earth was in ENT, it's quite posible they didn't have a space military force, at least not a warp capable one. They had the protection of the Vulcans (though the Xindi incident showed how worthless that actually was) and realistically, any enemy would have wiped the floor with them in a fight. Maybe they just had a couple of subwarp or low warp warships to fight off the occasional pirates from attacking the Sol system or something.

Realistically Archer should have been removed and replaced with a actual military Captain before the ship was sent into the Expanse, the Enterprise retaining perhaps only it's engineering crew.

But that military Captain and his military crew would most likely have much less experience than Archer and Co. of running the ship (there's more to it than just engineering), conducting a deep space mission and dealing with aliens; heck, of actually fighting with aliens for real. This greater experience is probably why it seems Starfleet 'absorbed' the military - becoming a military itself - and not the other way around.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I actually think it's very likely that in ENT's time, Earth did have a military space fleet of its own. I also think their ships looked like this.

After the war and the subsequent formation of the Federation, there was probably some kind of 'unification' of all of Earth's forces, with the Earth Starfleet, the MACOS, and this 'Earth Stellar Navy' (as that site calls it) combining into the Federation Starfleet.

 

[Vincent Law]

Although during TOS, Starfleet still seemed to be far more heavily tied to Earth, than to the Federation.

The thing about TOS is that no one, not even its creator, seemed all that solid about anything. After all, to begin with, Starfleet wasn't even Starfleet, it was UESPA. However, since then everything has been established and many things in TOS have been effectively ret-conned, such as the organization Enterprise and her crew worked for being Starfleet, and that Earth was the capitol of a multi-planet federation, which Starfleet represented.

The argument there is that the Enterprise had the most advances engines of any Earth ship available. Earth's miitary ships (if any) should have also been sent into the Expanse, even if they would have been trailing the faster Enterprise.

The NX-01 was a government ship, certainly not a civilian one, the then Starfleet not being a private organization (which would have been interesting). Realistically Archer should have been removed and replaced with a actual military Captain before the ship was sent into the Expanse, the Enterprise retaining perhaps only it's engineering crew.

Yes, this was the point I was implicating. Even if the ship was to only act as a scout, the crew should have been replaced by military personnel, with some of the key civilians kept on board as specialists and advisers only. That is, of course, presuming that the Earth Starfleet was not a military organization itself, regardless of what some of its personnel might have said.

Well, considering how new to the galactic scene and weak Earth was in ENT, it's quite posible they didn't have a space military force, at least not a warp capable one. They had the protection of the Vulcans (though the Xindi incident showed how worthless that actually was) and realistically, any enemy would have wiped the floor with them in a fight. Maybe they just had a couple of subwarp or low warp warships to fight off the occasional pirates from attacking the Sol system or something.

I don't believe I can recall any instance where the Vulcans were said to have acted in any capacity other than advisers. Even so, there is no reason for Earth to lack any kind of a space borne military. In the one instance we saw the solar system being protected, Starfleet ships were filling this role.

But that military Captain and his military crew would most likely have much less experience than Archer and Co. of running the ship (there's more to it than just engineering), conducting a deep space mission and dealing with aliens; heck, of actually fighting with aliens for real. This greater experience is probably why it seems Starfleet 'absorbed' the military - becoming a military itself - and not the other way around.

Whatever their lack of experience in dealing with unknown aliens or in handling the Enterprise themselves, they would have the military training necessary to carry out a military mission. As little sense as it makes to send only one ship to deal with a threat to the entire planet, it makes even less sense to send a crew of civilians to carry out a military mission to eliminate that threat. Only a relatively small number of the original crew would be needed to act as specialists and advisers to the military crew for issues dealing with the ship and for matters dealing with diplomacy. For that matter including an official ambassador on board for that function might have been advisable as well. This is, of course, presuming that Earth's Starfleet was a civilian organization.

 

[neozeks]

Whatever their lack of experience in dealing with unknown aliens or in handling the Enterprise themselves, they would have the military training necessary to carry out a military mission.

That's why there was a MACO team onboard. But I doubt any military officer would have received better training than Mayweather and Reed to fly the Enterprise and shoot it's weapons. Of course, them getting that training in the first place is a bit incogruous with Starfleet not being a military but maybe Starfleet's status was 'fuzzy' to avoid Vulcan disagreement or something.

The only superfluous people from the Starfleet crew that I can see would be the science compliment - but given all the weird things and anomalies they were going to encounter, some scientist on board would still be needed.

And Starfleet not being military doesn't neccessarily mean they were civilian. At least in the USA, there exist uniformed forces that are not military (the NOAA and the PHS Corps). Though I guess the very definition of civilian can be a little 'fuzzy' too.

 

[Gary7]

Let's not make things more complicated than they need to be.

Starfleet is a combined service, and one of the branches is military. The Federation starships were predominantly military in nature. A number of them were sent on "peaceful missions." So yes, the vessels used were military in nature, but the mission was not. In so many episodes, Captain Kirk and Captain Picard would say "We're on a peaceful mission."

So, it's not a matter of there being "resistance" to the idea of Starfleet being military. When someone makes the presumption that the presence of a starship is of military purpose (which does happen often enough), a clarification is usually made that the vessel is on a peaceful mission.

In "Enterprise", there was a point where the mission needed more of a military edge due to the high degree of conflicts arising. And that's why the MACO team was introduced. But still, the main mission continued to be the exploring of new worlds and seeking out intelligent life. Basically, a peaceful mission.

 

[Vincent Law]

That's why there was a MACO team onboard. But I doubt any military officer would have received better training than Mayweather and Reed to fly the Enterprise and shoot it's weapons. Of course, them getting that training in the first place is a bit incogruous with Starfleet not being a military but maybe Starfleet's status was 'fuzzy' to avoid Vulcan disagreement or something.

Not only did the MACOs fail to do much more than compliment the Enterprise's existing security team, but they were kept on following the return to Earth to continue in the same role, with Lieutenant Reed, a Starfleet officer, acting as their commanding officer. If the MACOs had simply been hitching a ride on the fastest ship available to Earth and still doing everything, this might be a more compelling argument. However, in the history of civilian ships being pressed into military service, what typically happens is that the ship is actually given a military commission and is operated by the military itself. An excellent example are all the civilian liners which were pressed into service by the British and American navies during the world wars as troop transports or hospital ships. Aside from a new paint job, each ship was refit for its new purpose, kind of like Enterprise was in "The Expanse."

The only superfluous people from the Starfleet crew that I can see would be the science compliment - but given all the weird things and anomalies they were going to encounter, some scientist on board would still be needed.

Actually only a few key personnel, like Commander Tucker, Lieutenant Reed, Captain Archer, Ensign Sato, and maybe Commander T'Pol (if given a proper commission) would have really been needed, and in all likelihood they might have been given professional direct commissions as military officers in order to stay on.

And Starfleet not being military doesn't neccessarily mean they were civilian. At least in the USA, there exist uniformed forces that are not military (the NOAA and the PHS Corps). Though I guess the very definition of civilian can be a little 'fuzzy' too.

The thing that helps to separate them as civilian is their lack of participation in military actions. NOAA does not arm their aircraft or ships and no part of their mission includes defense of the country, hence why they are not considered a military service and the Coast Guard is.

 

[T'Girl]

NOAA does not arm their aircraft or ships and no part of their mission includes defense of the country, hence why they are not considered a military service and the Coast Guard is.

NOAA's role in national defense is in the area of reconnaissance, both from aircraft and ships.

The reason they were made a uniform service with commissioned officers in the first place was to prevent them from being tried as spies if captured. NOAA officers have access to only small arms in their reconnaissance activities, but many recon aircraft in the DOD are also unarmed.

NOAA commissioned officers are subject to the uniformed code of military justice.

 

[Expendable]

Yes, Leah Brahams was a civilian who specialized in warp design. And? If you note LaForge was required to modify her design to make it work.

Actually it worked fine. What LaForge did was to make it work to allow the ship to escape that trap it had become trapped in, and he used design changes that had been proposed for the next class starship by Dr. Brahams and her team.

Really, though, this simply illustrates that Starfleet does in fact contract out design work to civilians. I'm glad this was brought up, as I had completely forgotten about this example.

As for your point about the military controlling the government, I'm afraid that argument does not have a logical basis. The Federation is shown to have a civilian government which controls a military in the same fashion as the United States' government. Actually, I can't even understand where your supposition comes from. How does the fact that the militaries of various nations have historically been responsible for exploration somehow lead to the conclusion that the military should be leading the government? This does not follow; please explain.

1) Actually, if you go back to Brahams you can see that there were modifications that were made prior to the holodeck moment. In addition, use the Defiant as yet another example of the Starfleet engineers having to make things work even if they were originally designed by a civilian. There are more cannon developments by Starfleet officers than civilians.

2) The comment about history was a point about the historic context. If you are to go back and look at the prior analysis that the military was the primary force in development (not my argument) then you also have to place in context that the military was far more powerful as there wasn't really a civilian government at the time of most of those discoveries.

 

[Jakks]

The thing with the TV series is that they would all start off with the whole 'peaceful exploration' thingy...then as time went on the writers started needing more action and bang for the buck...so all the series seemed to get more action/combat oriented as the years went by.

Seemed to be the natural progression in all the shows, ('cept TOS I'd say). It had nothing to do with Genes 'vision' it had everything to do with ratings.

 

[T'Girl]

Although during TOS, Starfleet still seemed to be far more heavily tied to Earth, than to the Federation.

... and many things in TOS have been effectively ret-conned,

As a fan, you can go with (as I do) the original presentation, the so called "in-universe." Or you can correct and over-write what came before, with what came later (retcon). Personally I consider retcon to be beyond sloppy. With a degree of difficulty it can be seen to all fit together, without retcon.

What came first sets the precedent.

... and that Earth was the capitol of a multi-planet federation,

There was no mention of such during TOS, Earth being the capital I mean. Either (most likely) the matter just never came up, or at that time the capital was not located there. Even in later series it's never overtly stated that Earth has always been the capital.

During Journey to Babel, the various members certainly weren't meeting on Earth, suggesting that the Federation membership didn't consistently meet in the same place.

Starfleet wasn't even Starfleet, it was UESPA.

Based simply upon Kirk's statement to Captain Christopher of "Our authority is the United Earth Space Probe Agency," Starfleet would fall (in some way) under that agency. Either as a subdivision of a larger organizational entity or perhaps in terms of political management and budgetary funding. The money has got to come from (or through) somewhere.

 

[Vincent Law]

1) Actually, if you go back to Brahams you can see that there were modifications that were made prior to the holodeck moment. In addition, use the Defiant as yet another example of the Starfleet engineers having to make things work even if they were originally designed by a civilian. There are more cannon developments by Starfleet officers than civilians.

Probably because the shows focused more on the Starfleet personnel. But your argument that Starfleet developed everything "in house" is still effectively disproven.

2) The comment about history was a point about the historic context. If you are to go back and look at the prior analysis that the military was the primary force in development (not my argument) then you also have to place in context that the military was far more powerful as there wasn't really a civilian government at the time of most of those discoveries.

You don't consider the British government to be civilian in nature? And let's not forget that the United States came on the scene in 1776. Not to mention that the military still participates in scientific research and exploration in different forms, as well as humanitarian missions. So really, your reasoning still does not follow.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Although during TOS, Starfleet still seemed to be far more heavily tied to Earth, than to the Federation.

... and many things in TOS have been effectively ret-conned,

As a fan, you can go with (as I do) the original presentation, the so called "in-universe." Or you can correct and over-write what came before, with what came later (retcon). Personally I consider retcon to be beyond sloppy. With a degree of difficulty it can be seen to all fit together, without retcon.

What came first sets the precedent.

... and that Earth was the capitol of a multi-planet federation,

There was no mention of such during TOS, Earth being the capital I mean. Either (most likely) the matter just never came up, or at that time the capital was not located there. Even in later series it's never overtly stated that Earth has always been the capital.

During Journey to Babel, the various members certainly weren't meeting on Earth, suggesting that the Federation membership didn't consistently meet in the same place.

Starfleet wasn't even Starfleet, it was UESPA.

Based simply upon Kirk's statement to Captain Christopher of "Our authority is the United Earth Space Probe Agency," Starfleet would fall (in some way) under that agency. Either as a subdivision of a larger organizational entity or perhaps in terms of political management and budgetary funding. The money has got to come from (or through) somewhere.

I think TOS did the most retconning. It was a work in progress the first season, with anything that didn't stick to the wall being tossed in the trash. Its only us nit picky fans that want to rummage through the garbage and try to serve what there as part of the meal.

The Enterprise is a Federation ship in its Starfleet arm. And always has been.

Kirks middle initial is "T" and always has been.

Spock is half human and always has been.

And so on.

 

[T'Girl]

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I think TOS did the most retconning. Disagree, TOS is exposed to the most effort to retcon because it is separated form the other series by time and artistic style. Nothing says that Earth, the Federation and Starfleet were philosophically and organizationally static from their individual beginnings through the last episode of DS9. While Kirk's and Sisko's Federations exist in the same universe, they are very different places. The same applies to Archer's and Sisko's Starfleets.

The Enterprise is a Federation ship in its Starfleet arm. And always has been. Debatably, Kirk only referred to the Enterprise as a Federation Starship on a handful missions, certainly a minority of the times he made reference to the ship. A case can be made for the ship (and Starfleet), in that time period, not "belonging" directly to the Federation.

Kirks middle initial is "T" and always has been. Changing the initial on the tombstone Gray Mitchell created from a R into a T would be an example of retconning. I believe that the tombstone did indeed possessed a R. By observation, as a friend Mitchell was involved in James T. Kirk's romantic live to a degree that Spock never would be. I think the R stood not for Tiberius, but for Romeo. Not a retcon, a extrapolation.

Spock is half human and always has been. Well I agree with you there.

 

[Nerys Myk]

.

I think TOS did the most retconning. Disagree, TOS is exposed to the most effort to retcon because it is separated form the other series by time and artistic style. Nothing says that Earth, the Federation and Starfleet were philosophically and organizationally static from their individual beginnings through the last episode of DS9. While Kirk's and Sisko's Federations exist in the same universe, they are very different places. The same applies to Archer's and Sisko's Starfleets.

The Enterprise is a Federation ship in its Starfleet arm. And always has been. Debatably, Kirk only referred to the Enterprise as a Federation Starship on a handful missions, certainly a minority of the times he made reference to the ship. A case can be made for the ship (and Starfleet), in that time period, not "belonging" directly to the Federation.

Kirks middle initial is "T" and always has been. Changing the initial on the tombstone Gray Mitchell created from a R into a T would be an example of retconning. I believe that the tombstone did indeed possessed a R. By observation, as a friend Mitchell was involved in James T. Kirk's romantic live to a degree that Spock never would be. I think the R stood not for Tiberius, but for Romeo. Not a retcon, a extrapolation.

Spock is half human and always has been. Well I agree with you there.

But you're tying to make things work by rationalizing ( the fans retcon), when in the real world the Producers did retcon UESPA, "Earth ship", Spock's "human ancestor" and "James R. Kirk". They forgot (in the that case of JRK),just didnt like it (UESPA) or wanted to be deliberately vague. (various "time stamps"). I think the production schedule of TOS meant a lot of stuff was created on the fly and there wasn't always time to double check.

The Federation and Starfleet were pretty nebulous in TOS. Something that was usually far away or a voice or face on a screen. Or when we saw their represenatives they were often bureaucratic, supercilous and pomopus foils for Kirk and Company or generic authority figures.

 

[Jonas Grumby]

Spock is half human and always has been.

What? You dare dispute the fact that Spock was born Martian and subsequently had a species-change operation to human/Vulcan? I thought that argument was settled ages ago!

 

[Nerys Myk]

Sad to see that Anti-Martian bias is still alive in this day and age.

 

[T'Girl]

Spock is half human and always has been.

What? You dare dispute the fact that Spock was born Martian and subsequently had a species-change operation to human/Vulcan? I thought that argument was settled ages ago!

I've always suspected that T'Pring was actual the Princess of Helium.

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But you're tying to make things work by rationalizing
What I'm doing in taking the original series as it was actual presented, which established a fictional universe. Instead of changing the dialog/visuals in WNMHGB to accommodate dialog/visuals in These Are The Voyages. A procedure that (as I said) I think is sloppy.

when in the real world the Producers did retcon UESPA,
The United Earth (space probe agency), receive two (or three) mentions during TOS. Kirk notifies them of the Antares destruction, not the Federation. The bridge dedication plate on the bridge of the Enterprise B lists the seven divisions that contributed to her construction, the UESPA is one of those listed, so is Starfleet. UESPA is also mention in both ENT and VOY

The United Earth (space probe agency), TNG established that Earth's government is called United Earth and that some of it's internal subdivisions are referred to as agencies.

If the producers are retconning the term UESPA, they sure are taking their time about it.

"Earth ship",
During the time period of ENT, United Earth was already in existence, Starfleet was established as being, in some fashion, a government organization, per dialog by Admiral Forrester. Kirk, the majority of the times he does so, refers to the Enterprise as a "Earth Ship," and on at least one occasion as a "United Earth Ship." Yes he does refer to it in other ways, but on fewer occasions.

Spock's "human ancestor"
That would be Amanda, no retcon there.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Spock is half human and always has been.

What? You dare dispute the fact that Spock was born Martian and subsequently had a species-change operation to human/Vulcan? I thought that argument was settled ages ago!

I've always suspected that T'Pring was actual the Princess of Helium.

.

But you're tying to make things work by rationalizing
What I'm doing in taking the original series as it was actual presented, which established a fictional universe. Instead of changing the dialog/visuals in WNMHGB to accommodate dialog/visuals in These Are The Voyages. A procedure that (as I said) I think is sloppy.

when in the real world the Producers did retcon UESPA,
The United Earth (space probe agency), receive two (or three) mentions during TOS. Kirk notifies them of the Antares destruction, not the Federation. The bridge dedication plate on the bridge of the Enterprise B lists the seven divisions that contributed to her construction, the UESPA is one of those listed, so is Starfleet. UESPA is also mention in both ENT and VOY

The United Earth (space probe agency), TNG established that Earth's government is called United Earth and that some of it's internal subdivisions are referred to as agencies.

If the producers are retconning the term UESPA, they sure are taking their time about it.

"Earth ship",
During the time period of ENT, United Earth was already in existence, Starfleet was established as being, in some fashion, a government organization, per dialog by Admiral Forrester. Kirk, the majority of the times he does so, refers to the Enterprise as a "Earth Ship," and on at least one occasion as a "United Earth Ship." Yes he does refer to it in other ways, but on fewer occasions.

Spock's "human ancestor"
That would be Amanda, no retcon there.

You're stepping out of the TOS arena there. I'm refering to retcons that took place while TOS was in production. Decisions made by the TOS production team to alter what was established in prior episodes. In TOS, UESPA was retconned out in favor of Starfleet. United Earth and Earth ship were replaced by the UFP and Federation ship. And to the guys and gal running the show, they were more than happy to pretend that the Enterprise was always a Federation starship. Refering to ones mother as your "ancestor" while technically true is an odd usage of the term, especially for Spock.

What the future producers and writers of the films, TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT did has no relevance to what was done while TOS was in production. It's established in various books and interviews that these retcons took place as is the reasoning behind them.

 

[scotpens]

Referring to one’s mother as your “ancestor,” while technically true, is an odd usage of the term, especially for Spock.

Furthermore, in at least two TOS first-season episodes -- “The Corbomite Maneuver” and “This Side of Paradise” -- Spock’s parents are referred to in the past tense, as if they’re deceased. Season 2 gave us “Journey to Babel,” in which Spock’s dad and mom are very much alive. The whole estranged-father-and-son thing between Sarek and Spock was retconned.