Spoilers TP: Rough Beasts of Empire by DRGIII Review Thread

[crotig]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Amazon.co.uk has the Kindle edition date as 28/12/10 which is earlier than previously stated. The paperback edition has a 03/02/11 release date.
I'll be attempting to get the Kindle edition on Tuesday so I suppose I'd better get Unspoken Truth finished for then.

Hope they stick to it,

 

[KingstonTrekker]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Amazon.co.uk has the Kindle edition date as 28/12/10 which is earlier than previously stated. The paperback edition has a 03/02/11 release date.
I'll be attempting to get the Kindle edition on Tuesday so I suppose I'd better get Unspoken Truth finished for then.

Hope they stick to it,

I had a physical twinge when you mentioned Unspoken Truth...it is one of only a handful of Trek novels I was not able to finish (I have read 100's...)....good luck with it!

 

[TerraUnam]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

I didn't expect the Imperial Romulan State/Romulan Star Empire conflict to be resolved so soon.

All eyes in the Federation turn to the Cardassians next....

 

[KingstonTrekker]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

I didn't expect the Imperial Romulan State/Romulan Star Empire conflict to be resolved so soon.

Same here. I also felt that Donatra fell much too easily for the trap set for her. The author tried to stress that she had few other options available to her, but she was much too bright to travel to Romulus and to trust the Praetor.

 

[TerraUnam]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

ISTM that she was set up several books ago to be the Federation's Romulan and then that didn't happen. That could be an editorial decision, I don't know. But you can't win everything.

I also agree with the new Praetor that Vulcan/Romulan unity is a pie in the sky dream.

The launch of Typhon I was also cool. That also seemed to be an editorial mandate. DRGIII mentioned he had two and I'll wager that was one of them.

 

[Truth]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

ISTM that she was set up several books ago to be the Federation's Romulan and then that didn't happen. That could be an editorial decision, I don't know. But you can't win everything.

I also agree with the new Praetor that Vulcan/Romulan unity is a pie in the sky dream.

The launch of Typhon I was also cool. That also seemed to be an editorial mandate. DRGIII mentioned he had two and I'll wager that was one of them.

yeah , yeah yeah , thats great , but what i want to know is does sisko , finlly get some direction, casue this limbo thing has played itself out..

 

[David R. George III]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

I really liked the Romulan/Spock portions of the book. Very engaging stuff.

Glad to hear it.

The Sisko parts didn't work as well for me.

Spoiler: the Sisko parts.

I felt that several of his actions (e.g. how he left Kassidy) didn't align with his character. He also came off as whiny and more than a bit of a jerk (this element continued through to his command of the Robinson). I also felt that the flashbacks to the earlier Tzenekthi War didn't meld effectively (or at all) with the present-day story.

I suspected that the Sisko aspect of the tale might prove a tougher sell, for several reasons. Sorry it didn't work for you, but as a reader and fan of the continuing Deep Space Nine story, I felt satisfied by my choices.

My major beef with the book is...

Spoiler: KingstonTrekker's major beef.

My major beef with the book is that it is really two books in one --- the Sisko and Spock stories never come together (except for Sisko's meeting with Donatra). This could very easily have been two separate books --- with each story being fleshed out in more detail and receiving more comprehensive treatment.

The book could have been longer, of course, but from my perspective, it ended up precisely as long as it needed to be in order for me to tell the story I wished to tell.

I rated the book "Above Average" due to the excellent Spock story. The Siskso plot, in my opinion, was Below Average.

Good news, bad news, huh? Oh well.

I didn't expect...

Spoiler: TerraUnam's unmet expectations

I didn't expect the Imperial Romulan State/Romulan Star Empire conflict to be resolved so soon.

For me, as both a reader and a writer, I like the unexpected.

All eyes in the Federation turn to the Cardassians next.

You might be surprised.

I also felt...

Spoiler: what KingstonTrekker also felt.

I also felt that Donatra fell much too easily for the trap set for her. The author tried to stress that she had few other options available to her, but she was much too bright to travel to Romulus and to trust the Praetor.

Spoiler: DRGIII's response.

Another aspect of this development comes from the fact that Donatra truly wanted an undivided Romulan Empire, and so wanted to do what she could to make that happen. Note that she decided that if the summit appeared as though it would fail, she would assassinate Tal'Aura herself, even at the cost of Donatra's own life, because removing the praetor from office, even in that way, would be in the bests interests of the Romulan people.

The launch of...

Spoiler: what got launched.

The launch of Typhon I was also cool.

That also seemed to be an editorial mandate. DRGIII mentioned he had two and I'll wager that was one of them.

How much did you wager? And shall I tell you where to send me a check?

...does sisko , finlly get some direction, casue this limbo thing has played itself out..

Spoiler: DRGIII's response.

I believe that he does.

 

[TerraUnam]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

I didn't say my expectations were unmet. I just said I didn't expect a resolution to that issue so soon. I liked how you did it, actually. It always seems on Romulus no good deed goes unpunished. Conspiracy and duplicity are the coin of the realm there. What you did with Donatra was good. I just thought that might have been a source of tension for a while longer. But things move on.

The book was excellent. I have always liked the Romulans, that's one reason I like the ENT novels. More Romulan time is good.

I await Paths of Disharmony eagerly.

As a personal view, whenever Spock talks his unity line in the books (not just yours) I always think "Yeah, so you're going to throw two centuries of Federation membership and Vulcan's relations with Earth out the window now?" Cue Trys Chen.

 

[KingstonTrekker]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Thanks for replying to my posts David. I think you may have missed the meaning of one of my comments. I was not criticizing the length of the book or advocating that it should be longer. I expressed the opinion that it seemed like two separate books since, to me, the very separate stories (Spock/Sisko) never converged. That led to my comment that they could have been separate novels -- which would have allowed additional exploration with each story if that had been your wish.

 

[David R. George III]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

I didn't say my expectations were unmet.

^ Sorry if I implied that you had unmet expectations. Well, actually, I guess I said that you did, but I was really only trying to be clever with the spoiler tags. I didn't mean anything negative by it.

I find your take on Spock's press for reunification of Vulcan and Romulus fascinating, in that I didn't know if anybody else felt the same way about it that I did. Writing such a perspective into Rough Beasts of Empire actually felt liberating and, at least for me, politically interesting.

Anyway, thanks for the kind words.

Thanks for replying to my posts David.

Always happy to chat with readers, whether or not they like my work.

I think you may have missed the meaning of one of my comments. I was not criticizing the length of the book or advocating that it should be longer. I expressed the opinion that it seemed like two separate books since, to me, the very separate stories (Spock/Sisko) never converged. That led to my comment that they could have been separate novels -- which would have allowed additional exploration with each story if that had been your wish.

I understood what you were saying, but I guess I didn't respond in a way that made that clear. I agree that there are two separate, though related, story lines in the novel, but I'm not sure that individualizing them into their own books would have allowed me to expand either tale. I mean, I essentially told the story, or stories, that I sought to tell; there's nothing more I really wanted to add (with the possible exception of expanding on Sisko's role in the last Federation-Tzenkethi war).

 

[KingstonTrekker]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Thanks David --- and for the record, I do have a high regard for your work

My one major constructive (I hope) criticism of RBOE pertains to my perspective that the Sisko arc never really came together. I think that this might very well have been rectified if you could have expanded the novel's elements about his experiences during the Federation-Tzenkethi War. This would have more directly linked his past experiences with the Tzenkethi to the current political context and his adventures as captain of the Robinson.

Also for the record...I loved DS9 but have not been a fan of the past few books in the Relaunch. Although I was hoping for more from your Sisko story, I felt it was the best DS9-R tale in a very, very, long time. It was great to see him commanding not one but two Federation starships --- and to see him finally starting to settle in as captain of the Robinson at the end of the book. In fact, I hope that you are the author who gets to continue Sisko's tale in future books.

 

[TerraUnam]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

David:



I'm happy to see that you think the same way I do. I just think that there has to be something said for two centuries spent on weaving ties of politics, culture and even family within the Federation.

Sure Romulans are genetic relations but it's the Humans who live next door and then there's that Betazoid daughter-in-law....

It just seems there's so much to be said there. So if you as a writer find it interesting, please run with it. Look at Tuvok's family. You're not asking the Lit universe to do something that's not already there to be shaped.

Second, on the Cardassians, when I said all eyes are on them now and you said I might be surprised; please surprise me.

 

[KingstonTrekker]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

I'm happy to see that you think the same way I do. I just think that there has to be something said for two centuries spent on weaving ties of politics, culture and even family within the Federation.

Sure Romulans are genetic relations but it's the Humans who live next door

I agree 100%. I have always found Spock's tireless efforts toward Reunification to be strange. I remember thinking this when I watched Unification when it first aired.

 

[TerraUnam]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Plus there is the cumulative impact of Human/Vulcan interaction. It was the Vulcans who were the other party in Earth's First Contact and they played a leading role in the 98-year period from 2063 to 2161 when Earth, with Vulcan's help:

• picked up the ashes after WWIII
• achieved global unity,
• became a spacefaring species
• launched extra-solar colonies
• fought humanity's first interstellar war, and
• gave up a good deal of sovereignty to embrace collective interstellar and inter-species unity by forming the Federation.

And then there were all the things the Federation went through together. All in the past 300 years.

This against a millenia-old genetic tie and interstellar migration that passed into faint memory and near-legend by the 2100's (Earth calendar) plus the fact that Spock sees Romulans as "Fallen Vulcans" who need to be brought to Surak.

Sometimes I think it's Spock who needs the attitude adjustment, not the Romulans.

 

[David R. George III]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

I have always found Spock's tireless efforts toward Reunification to be strange.

As I read this statement, I thought you were going to say that you always found Spock's tireless efforts toward reunification to be tiresome. Would have been a good line.

 

[Ronald Held]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

So far, this seems like two books that really are not that strongly coupled together. Couldit have been written as two stories in a book?

 

[starri]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

I really hate to be negative about the books, because I know all of the authors work really hard on them, and don't really deserve to be heckled on a website.

That said...

The resolution of the Sisko subplot actually made me angry.

Spoiler: Sisko's Arc

One of DS9's recurring themes was about Sisko's reluctance to embrace his being the Emissary, but that he eventually did accept it, and by the end of the series seemed to see himself as Emissary first, everything else second. To have him just decide "Oh well, guess I'm not the Emissary anymore, guess I'll just dump my wife and kid on Bajor and get on living my life" seemed to fly in the face of all of that.

I don't want to go all Comic Book Guy here, but it really seemed like an utter betrayal of the character.

I guess I might just be overreacting to a plot development that I didn't like, but at the same, I wasn't exactly crazy about what's become of Kira, but I can at least see that being a fairly logical progression for her.

 

[David R. George III]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

The resolution of the Sisko subplot actually made me angry.

Well, I'm certainly sorry to hear that. The thing is, I truly feel that the way you characterized the story was not really accurate.

Spoiler: Sisko's Arc

One of DS9's recurring themes was about Sisko's reluctance to embrace his being the Emissary, but that he eventually did accept it, and by the end of the series seemed to see himself as Emissary first, everything else second.

Spoiler: Sisko's arc.

I completely agree.

Spoiler: Sisko's arc.

To have him just decide "Oh well, guess I'm not the Emissary anymore, guess I'll just dump my wife and kid on Bajor and get on living my life" seemed to fly in the face of all of that.

Spoiler: Sisko's arc

Wildly disagree. First of all, Sisko did not "just" decide anything. He lived through and weighed events over the course of many months, even years, until he reached an extremely painful resolution to a difficult set of circumstances--a resolution designed to safeguard his family. At no time did he consider the course of action he took as a means to "get on living my life."

Further, Sisko did not choose to give up being the Emissary; the Prophets apparently completed employing him for their aims, to the point of no longer even being a part of his life.

Spoiler: Sisko's arc

I don't want to go all Comic Book Guy here, but it really seemed like an utter betrayal of the character.

Spoiler: Sisko's arc

Your description of what happened in the story might rightly be considered a betrayal of the character, but again, that's not really what took place.

I guess I might just be overreacting to a plot development that I didn't like, but at the same, I wasn't exactly crazy about what's become of Kira, but I can at least see that being a fairly logical progression for her.

I wouldn't suggest that you are overreacting; whether or not you like a story is a subjective matter, and there's nothing wrong with you not liking--or even hating--my novel. At the same time, I really feel that your impressions of the events in the story are not entirely accurate.

I will also say this. On the whole, I love the Deep Space Nine characters, Sisko among them. I would never want to write anything that undermined the essence of any of those characters, and certainly not Ben. At the same time, I do understand that the direction in which I took Sisko's tale might challenge some readers. I'm good with that; I like to challenge myself, and to bring the unexpected to my work. It's my job to sell that to the readers, and I'm sorry I didn't manage to do that with you. I'm hopeful that I will have better fortunes with others.

 

[JD]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Hmm, everything I read there has really piqued my interest in this book.

 

[rfmcdpei]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

This against a millenia-old genetic tie and interstellar migration that passed into faint memory and near-legend by the 2100's (Earth calendar) plus the fact that Spock sees Romulans as "Fallen Vulcans" who need to be brought to Surak.

Sometimes I think it's Spock who needs the attitude adjustment, not the Romulans.

If we're going by numbers, it's the Romulans who probably represent the dominant cultural trend in the Vulcan species. While Vulcan recovered from its near-terminal wars and fortified itself in its small corner of space against neighbours like the Andorians, Vulcan's offshoot colony on Romulus spent its two thousand years of independence creating a vast interstellar community. If said it elsewhere, but even leaving aside possible offshoots like the Rigellians aside, Surak's ethics are still big only among a minority of Vulcans. Trying to make converts to Surak's philosophy among Romulans who are culturally predisposed to a certain xenophobia and skepticism among Vulcann isn't a bad idea, but trying to make Romulans buy into the very historically contingent experiences of their planet-bound kin ... ?

Kamenor might be more right in saying that a certain amount of cross-pollination is all that can be hoped for, although I think you still need a movement for that kind of cultural embassage.

Why is Spock so big into the idea of Romulan-Vulcan unification? There are suggestions, from Taking Wing, that the idea is fairly popular on Vulcan if not among the Romulans. Maybe Vulcans see it as their way of completing their civilization's recovery, of tidying things up.