Plinkett gets REVENGE
- Thread starter Flying Spaghetti Monster
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Precisely my problem. When the third movie starts we're to infer that Anakin is now this great war hero awesome Jedi. I'd sure feel sadder during his fall in the movie if I, you know, got to see this! Because I've only seen him as a bitch douchebag who murdered women and children (and, oddly, Padme is completely aghast when he does this again to the Younglings in the Jedi training area) in one movie and was an annoying kid in the other.
So I, as a viewer, had no emotional attachment or connection to Anakin I've only seen him as either a punk or a kid so his "fall" is not a big one. All of the "good stuff" happens off-screen. The movies could've set this fall up a whole hell of a lot better if they made Anakin far more of a hero in the first two movies (dispensing with the whole "kid" stuff in the first one) and we saw no signs of him having any "evil" of him. They should've built him up to be Jesus of the Star Wars universe and then he falls through the course of events in the third movie making it a much more powerful thing.
But, nope. He's a whiny bitch in the second movie who killed an entire camp of people including women and children!!! And he did it gleefully! Then between movies he "redeems himself" and when we meet up with him in the third movie he's a whiny punk who's tired of being put down by "the man," snaps and then kills children again!
Sorry. While I admit the third movie was decent, Anakin's fall from grace (and further, Vader's redemption) would've been far more powerful if he hadn't be a bitch for a whole movie and an annoying typical "movie kid" in another and if any "redemption or heroism" he goes through didn't occur off-camera between movies. That's just pure lazy screen writing.
"Hey, Anakin! You sure on a war hero, you're the best pilot I've ever seen!"
"Yeah, it's too bad it all happened off-camera. Hey, WHY DO YOU KEEP PUTTING ME DOWN?! WAHHHHHH!!!!"
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Wassail Drunk, everything you say is entirely valid. And I agree that the films would have been far better had they been handled as you outline. Still, even with the flaws within the film itself (and with the setup primarily from AOTC), I like ROTS and even prefer it the most out of any of the films. I'm not stating that it's an objectively superior film to ESB, or even ROTJ (with its god-forsaken teddy bears). All I'm saying is that there is enough in ROTS for it to be a success -- even if its only success is with myself. 
Look, there's no sense in trying to argue that ROTS is an exceptionally well-made film. It isn't. It makes even less sense trying to string together a coherent argument for the PT as a whole. But ROTS does enough right to resonate with me. It's a bit like the people who saw Avatar and walked out of the film loving it, despite its derivative plot, cliché characters, and hackneyed dialogue. Sometimes a film works despite its shortcomings. I liked Avatar but was particularly moved by it. ROTS, on the other hand, I can connect to on a visceral level. I fully understand and appreciate its criticisms but my enjoyment of the film isn't even remotely threatened by them -- which is why, as much as I enjoy the film, I'm looking forward to its imminent thrashing by Plinkett.
Look, there's no sense in trying to argue that ROTS is an exceptionally well-made film. It isn't. It makes even less sense trying to string together a coherent argument for the PT as a whole. But ROTS does enough right to resonate with me. It's a bit like the people who saw Avatar and walked out of the film loving it, despite its derivative plot, cliché characters, and hackneyed dialogue. Sometimes a film works despite its shortcomings. I liked Avatar but was particularly moved by it. ROTS, on the other hand, I can connect to on a visceral level. I fully understand and appreciate its criticisms but my enjoyment of the film isn't even remotely threatened by them -- which is why, as much as I enjoy the film, I'm looking forward to its imminent thrashing by Plinkett.
Agree to disagree, I guess. For me, ROTS is the one movie of the prequels I find my self least able to re-watch. Infact, while I've seen the other two prequels over again a few times I've only seen bits of the third and trying to watch it just bores me, really.
And I find many other aspects of it just annoying. A buddy and I watched the last 20 or 30 minutes of it once and were just laughing at how much, and how often, Yoda mixes up his English -he does it far more than he does in ESB- the melodramatic "over-acting" Obi-Won does during the battle, "You were the chosen one!" and how Padme just... Dies. Pretty much of nothing.
Ugh. Just terrible. If you like it that's fine but I just don't see it.
From "91 Reasons to Hate Star Wars ROTS" this made me laugh pretty good:
And I find many other aspects of it just annoying. A buddy and I watched the last 20 or 30 minutes of it once and were just laughing at how much, and how often, Yoda mixes up his English -he does it far more than he does in ESB- the melodramatic "over-acting" Obi-Won does during the battle, "You were the chosen one!" and how Padme just... Dies. Pretty much of nothing.
Ugh. Just terrible. If you like it that's fine but I just don't see it.
From "91 Reasons to Hate Star Wars ROTS" this made me laugh pretty good:
Yeah, that's cool. I don't expect a whole lot of people to agree with my perspective on it. If you don't see it, then you don't see it -- personally, I'm still trying to figure out why Highlander is such a well-spoken-of film (seems more like an extended Queen music video than anything else). I know my view is pretty much in the minority ... and I'm perfectly okay with that. Hell, I find the criticism of the film almost as entertaining as the film itself.
Also, and for what it's worth, my bias is probably based on a lot of time invested in the buildup of ROTS. Maybe it's the time I spent sifting through the spoilers (which likely helped me build the necessary inferences to make the story more meaningful), or maybe the film just pulls the right strings with my emotions. It's probably a bit of both.
Either way, the film works, for me. But I certainly don't expect it to for most everyone else.
Also, and for what it's worth, my bias is probably based on a lot of time invested in the buildup of ROTS. Maybe it's the time I spent sifting through the spoilers (which likely helped me build the necessary inferences to make the story more meaningful), or maybe the film just pulls the right strings with my emotions. It's probably a bit of both.
Either way, the film works, for me. But I certainly don't expect it to for most everyone else.
Sigh. Haven't I already checkmated you on this one?
Yes. Yes, I have.Check. And mate.and:
Ah yes. Padme's dominatrix outfit. Flawless. (Other than Portman's fair lack of boobs.)
Indeed, sir! (Where the hell was that from, btw? I remember it, but not the details.) But I think I see the problem here. Mayhap you're trying to appeal to my rationality? If so, Padmé's outfit is hardly the key to doing so!Sigh. Haven't I already checkmated you on this one? Yes. Yes, I have.
Seriously, though. I realize my attachment to ROTS is not entirely based on objectivity. Consider it a guilty pleasure, if you must. We all have them. Search your feelings, Lord Gaith. You know it must be true.
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I actually decided to watch ROTS this evening. First time in a while. Thought I'd look for reasons not to like the film. Not hard to find them, mind you, but what struck me more than anything else was just how horrid the editing is. It's really atrocious - Ben Burtt is the bane of the PT in more ways than one (it's criminal how marginalized JW was in those films). But even now the film still resonates with me, particularly from the halfway point forward.
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Ahem.Indeed, sir! (Where the hell was that from, btw? I remember it, but not the details.)Sigh. Haven't I already checkmated you on this one? Yes. Yes, I have.
I don't know what you're talking about.Consider it a guilty pleasure, if you must. We all have them. Search your feelings, Lord Gaith. You know it must be true.
The reason why it says "Croatia" is because IMDB is regionalised, and because I'm in Croatia right now, since, I'm, you know... a Croat.
And because of your distasteful attitude, I'm reporting your HIGHLY offensive post and expect your apology.
I hope that that was just ignorance speaking, and not bias.
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I've basically learned not to wait for Red Letter Media reviews. They come when they come... eventually, after a few years. Go off and do somehing else and maybe you'll see one before you go senile.
He's a solid reviewer, though, and his TPM review is one of the better video reviews I've seen.
For my money Spoony is pretty much the best reviewer in any way associated with That Guy With the Glasses - he's the only one I still regularly follow - (I dropped Doug Walker a year ago now, he's plenty awful).
Thing is Spoony is able to make being angry funny and affecting when so many other reviewers go into humourless apopletc rages that feel and sound staged, drab and uninspired (cf: Doug Walker).
The guy doesn't just do game reviews, though. My favourite reviews of his tend to be those of kitschy movies like:
http://spoonyexperiment.com/2008/07/06/yor-movie-review/
http://spoonyexperiment.com/2009/09/06/robowar-review/
And here's Spoony reviewing a Star Trek title:
http://spoonyexperiment.com/2009/02/12/695/
Interesting that sfdebris, the bulk of whose work is Star Trek titles, isn't that favoured here. Generally I fnd his reviews pretty interesting listens, although this varies (as a rule, sfdebris is at his weakest when discussing thematic depth; his strengths are rippng to part scientific and logical errors of a plot.)
He's a solid reviewer, though, and his TPM review is one of the better video reviews I've seen.
For my money Spoony is pretty much the best reviewer in any way associated with That Guy With the Glasses - he's the only one I still regularly follow - (I dropped Doug Walker a year ago now, he's plenty awful).
Thing is Spoony is able to make being angry funny and affecting when so many other reviewers go into humourless apopletc rages that feel and sound staged, drab and uninspired (cf: Doug Walker).
The guy doesn't just do game reviews, though. My favourite reviews of his tend to be those of kitschy movies like:
http://spoonyexperiment.com/2008/07/06/yor-movie-review/
http://spoonyexperiment.com/2009/09/06/robowar-review/
And here's Spoony reviewing a Star Trek title:
http://spoonyexperiment.com/2009/02/12/695/
Interesting that sfdebris, the bulk of whose work is Star Trek titles, isn't that favoured here. Generally I fnd his reviews pretty interesting listens, although this varies (as a rule, sfdebris is at his weakest when discussing thematic depth; his strengths are rippng to part scientific and logical errors of a plot.)
I always thought SF Debris was above reproach, and required no introduction.
Regarding Spoony, I'd pit Brad Jones against Noah Antweiler. They're both really great.
Walker's problem is that Walker has failed to grow or change as an entertainer in any way for something along the lines of three years. I still sort of like him, but the Nostalgia Critic has simply grown stale. Yeah, at some point, he really needed to cut down on the signature temper tantrums, which strangely he was never actually that good at selling, and replace them with jokes, which he's generally pretty decent at.
I should say that his recent That Guy Riffs series is pretty hilarious, and easily the best work he was ever done. Maybe he is growing and changing; maybe it's time to hang up the Nostalgia Critic, or at least stop adhering to the week-in-week-out schedule, as admirable as his dedication to that schedule has been (abstractly, of course, since they all bleed together after a while).
(I wouldn't mind if Antweiler went into the same area with more gusto. His riffs [including the feature length riff of Genuine Worst Film Ever Made, After Last Season] are shockingly good. It'd also obviate many of the hassles reviewing involves, particularly the apparently rather grueling editing process.)
But since I said something nice, I get to say something terrible, and Kickassia is easily one of the worst things ever released upon an unsuspecting public, and Doug Walker was its mastermind. I still want to know whom to blame for the two years-late, interminable, gut-wrenchingly unpleasant Sarah Palin impression, him or Ellis.
Regarding Spoony, I'd pit Brad Jones against Noah Antweiler. They're both really great.
Walker's problem is that Walker has failed to grow or change as an entertainer in any way for something along the lines of three years. I still sort of like him, but the Nostalgia Critic has simply grown stale. Yeah, at some point, he really needed to cut down on the signature temper tantrums, which strangely he was never actually that good at selling, and replace them with jokes, which he's generally pretty decent at.
I should say that his recent That Guy Riffs series is pretty hilarious, and easily the best work he was ever done. Maybe he is growing and changing; maybe it's time to hang up the Nostalgia Critic, or at least stop adhering to the week-in-week-out schedule, as admirable as his dedication to that schedule has been (abstractly, of course, since they all bleed together after a while).
(I wouldn't mind if Antweiler went into the same area with more gusto. His riffs [including the feature length riff of Genuine Worst Film Ever Made, After Last Season] are shockingly good. It'd also obviate many of the hassles reviewing involves, particularly the apparently rather grueling editing process.)
But since I said something nice, I get to say something terrible, and Kickassia is easily one of the worst things ever released upon an unsuspecting public, and Doug Walker was its mastermind. I still want to know whom to blame for the two years-late, interminable, gut-wrenchingly unpleasant Sarah Palin impression, him or Ellis.
Eh, I still like the Critic and Doug Walker in general, though I can see why people are saying it's getting tired. Sometimes that's how I feel towards Linkara, tbh. That's one of the nice things about these online reviewers, plenty of options.
Thanks for those. I've not been avoiding Spoony out of any dislike, just not given him much of a chance - don't wanna get sucked in, you might say.
There were parts of Kickassia that i really liked; mostly seeing all of TGWTG staff in one place and playing off each other. Little moments. I was really disappointed with Lindsay's part though; even aside from the Palin impersonation taking up almost the entire thing, she was hardly in it (though I understand the behind-the-scenes reason). Definitely didn't even approach the Team Brawl though.
Thanks for those. I've not been avoiding Spoony out of any dislike, just not given him much of a chance - don't wanna get sucked in, you might say.
There were parts of Kickassia that i really liked; mostly seeing all of TGWTG staff in one place and playing off each other. Little moments. I was really disappointed with Lindsay's part though; even aside from the Palin impersonation taking up almost the entire thing, she was hardly in it (though I understand the behind-the-scenes reason). Definitely didn't even approach the Team Brawl though.
And that's the really maddening paradox of ROTS: by almost any dramatic measure - writing, acting, pace, emotional intensity and character development - it's the best of PT by far, yet for most of us fans who care about Star Wars, particularly the OT, it's also the sloppiest and most maddening, and poses the biggest continuity problems.Just a friendly reminder:
When it comes to the Star Wars fandom, then, the PT is like Global Thermonuclear War: the only winning move is not to play.
I've been a Star Wars fan since, like, the age of five (meaning, since 1989). The original movies are sacred to me and Empire is by far my all-time favorite movie.
Stll, I don't HATE the prequels, even though I find them disappointing (especially AOTC in all its sterility)...
As for continuity problems, Padme dying pissed me off (Leia explicitly stated she remembered her birth mother), but that's about it. It's not like Star Wars was ever famous for its "perfect" plot (I mean, The OT is literally full of plot holes)...
Wait, what point am I trying to make here...?
Oh yes, once you get past the horror that is Hayden Christensen, Portman's cringe inducing line delivery and shitty dialogue all together, you could actually lay back and enjoy Revenge of the Sith for its fast-paced action sequences and sweet visuals.
To be honest, the writing wasn't really that great in the OT either (not including TESB).
Stll, I don't HATE the prequels, even though I find them disappointing (especially AOTC in all its sterility)...
As for continuity problems, Padme dying pissed me off (Leia explicitly stated she remembered her birth mother), but that's about it. It's not like Star Wars was ever famous for its "perfect" plot (I mean, The OT is literally full of plot holes)...
Wait, what point am I trying to make here...?
Oh yes, once you get past the horror that is Hayden Christensen, Portman's cringe inducing line delivery and shitty dialogue all together, you could actually lay back and enjoy Revenge of the Sith for its fast-paced action sequences and sweet visuals.
To be honest, the writing wasn't really that great in the OT either (not including TESB).
- The godawful good clones vs. bad droids Clone Wars, with far more advanced tech than seen in the OT.
- Yoda knowing Chewie (I'm including massively stupid/unnecessary publicwank in "continuity problems")
- Palps' magical/nonsensical instant aging
- One Jedi taking out the whole Jedi Temple, even leading the charge, without getting so much as a scratch
- Death Star construction starts before Luke/Leia's birth
- R2's memory not erased?
But that's not all. Oh, no! Because as a direct sequel, ROTS is also burdened with all the continuity fails of TPM and AOTC (which, for all their sins, at least didn't include/build on the failings of future installments).
Result: total fail.
I might buy that for Generations... but not ROTS. At least TNG had All Good Things to finish on if you like; everything else is optional gravy.
Brad Jones I kind of like as he revews terrible obscure exploitaton films far more then the usual roster of mainstream duds of the 80s and 90s that clutter a lot of video reviewing, but for some reason never really got into his reviews. I dunno.
Basically. His screaming fit in Junior was pretty much the last straw for me. He needs more restraint and frankly more genuine feeling in his rage. When Spoony just breaks down and rages against that Pumpkinhead videogame, it's visceral and honest and that's what makes it hilarious.
I'd unhesistatingly say that Antwiler's Let's Play of Phantasmagoria - which, as it's a FMV Hell title, amounts to him cracking wise about poorly written and acted 'movie' segments - is one of the best things he's done.
Never cared for Linkara personally. Probably because comics are a pretty foreign subject to me.
Little moments is about right. Brad Jones steals a couple of scens, Doug Walker, to be fair, gets to lay to rest his best running gag. I do question the direction given for Spoony, and this is a problem for the earlier Team Brawl as well. As he noted in his own commentaries he was basically instructed to camp up his performances, which is why they're more cartoony then his own regular reviews.
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