I like to see it this way, as well. Makes more sense to me, makes me happy and allows me to write more fanfiction. All is well.
Surely the alternate timeline begins before Nero arrives?
- Thread starter DS9forever
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I like to see it this way, as well. Makes more sense to me, makes me happy and allows me to write more fanfiction. All is well.
I tend to think that Nero's arrival in the past and the creation of the alternate Universe changed the past of that universe as well as the future.
The events in Enterprise are predicated on future guy contacting Archer. Nero's arrival changed the future, so future guy might not even be born in that Universe, no contact with Archer, thus the events of Enterprise change too.
The events in Enterprise are predicated on future guy contacting Archer. Nero's arrival changed the future, so future guy might not even be born in that Universe, no contact with Archer, thus the events of Enterprise change too.
That would be a causality loop and would violate cause and effect.
I don't think Enterprise is in any kind of alternate timeline to TOS.
Kirk's premature birth in that shuttle may have led to his eyes changing color due to radiation from that massive, knarly-looking star they were flying near.
Hmmm, so which of the numerous Enterprise realities is TOS related to?
The one us viewers saw Archer and crew live through. Not the ones Daniels, Future Guy, the Sphere Builders or Vosk are from.
As I said earlier, from any one point in time, everything afterward is only a possibility. Just as two of the branches after Enterprise lead to TOS and STXI, the billions more beyond lead to everything from TNG to "Endgame" to "Yesterday's Enterprise" to "All Good Things" to "Relativity" to "Captain's Holiday" ...and so on.
As you must be aware, the viewpoints and personal opinions of the writers and others in the production team are in no way at all canon. Only what's on the screen/soundtrack counts in the least.
James T. Kirk was born in Iowa (per TFF), Alternate universe Kirk was born in space near the Klingon border. No dialog during Star Trek Eleven (you know, canon) mention returning to Earth anytime soon. Any conjecture of such a return is completely unsupported.
Winona was already with the ship's medical staff at the beginning of the emergency, heavily pregnant, wearing a (medical) gown and in the process of delivering. New-born Kirk did not appear premature.
This is a clear indication that the universe depicted in the movie was different prior to the emergence of the Narada.
And some people pick out large glaring ones.
,
^Kirk was from Iowa in both timelines. Nothing in STIV says he was actually born there.
That sign outside Riverside isn't canon, either
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That sign outside Riverside isn't canon, either
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Funny.
In the other thread, people argue about the Countdown comic, and they say it's not canon, because - even though the story for the comic comes from Orci & Kurtzman - it's not in the movie.
In this thread, people argue that the alternate universe quantum mechanic timetravel many worlds theory crap is canon, because - even though it's never stated in the movie - it has been stated by Orci (and ONLY Orci) on Trekmovie.com.
So there are many levels to non-canon? LOL. "It's not canon, but still more canon than the other non-canon thing."
In the other thread, people argue about the Countdown comic, and they say it's not canon, because - even though the story for the comic comes from Orci & Kurtzman - it's not in the movie.
In this thread, people argue that the alternate universe quantum mechanic timetravel many worlds theory crap is canon, because - even though it's never stated in the movie - it has been stated by Orci (and ONLY Orci) on Trekmovie.com.
So there are many levels to non-canon? LOL. "It's not canon, but still more canon than the other non-canon thing."
Kirk's premature birth in that shuttle may have led to his eyes changing color due to radiation from that massive, knarly-looking star they were flying near.
Actually, since NuChekov must have grown from a different sperm and ovum to TOS Chekov, who was a few years younger, and since George was written out of the movie, NuKirk could in reality have grown from the sperm and ovum that made TOS George...
There is probably some canon reference to the age difference between the brothers but if there isn't, they could in theory have been born in the same year (they certainly looked the same age in TOS...
George/Sam/Jonny Kirk Jr. was older. Shatner's stick-on moustache confirms this.
And who says TOS Chekov isn't STXI Chekov? The former may have experinced some relativistic time dialation, fallen through a wormhole, gotten stuck in a stasis tube or any number of other sci-fi mishaps.
.And who says TOS Chekov isn't STXI Chekov? The former may have experinced some relativistic time dialation, fallen through a wormhole, gotten stuck in a stasis tube or any number of other sci-fi mishaps.
And I in turn could tell you that I think that the Kelvin was on it's way back to Earth, Winona did give birth prematurely, and that if they hadn't met the Narada, she could have returned to Iowa in time to deliver, and that your opinion can't be any more or less supported than mine. Just because the writers didn't force-feed some dialog to us indicating all this didn't mean that that wasn't what was going to happen. However, I have the creators of the movie on my side, and regardless of what you personally consider "canon" or "official," I'm apt to take the word of the film's creators over some internet Trek fan who thinks they know better.
The whole point of the movie is that Spock Prime's actions changed history. If he didn't change the Prime universe's history, then what was the point of having him in the movie at all if it was already an alternate universe?
George/Sam/Jonny Kirk Jr. was older. Shatner's stick-on moustache confirms this
And who says TOS Chekov isn't STXI Chekov? The former may have experinced some relativistic time dialation, fallen through a wormhole, gotten stuck in a stasis tube or any number of other sci-fi mishaps.
Of course George/Sam was older but he could have been 9-12 months older... Actually I think JT was born in March and in NuTrek he was born in January so it would be tough for Geroge/Sam to squeeze in that same period.
As for Chekov - don't be silly - the odds of Nero's incursion resulting in the same ovum AND the same sperm meeting on a different date are about as astronomical as stumbling into a time travelling Vulcan in a random cave on a random planet. Like that would ever happen.
FINALLY! Somebody else see's it too!
"the creation of the alternate Universe changed the past of that universe as well as the future."
Yes!
This is my own personal interpretation of it too. And it actually makes sense when you consider that in Star Trek's uni...er...multiverse, the past and the future are constantly interacting with each other (beings & ships & whatnot traveling back and forth in time) - so changes at any point in time could, and *would*, ripple both forwards *and* backwards in time!
People & events in Star Trek often interact with their own past - and have influence on how those past events play out. So if you change the future - you would change the past (and visa versa.) An event which changes the (relative) present - would change the (relative) future - and when time travel is involved it would ripple backwards and change the past too. ALL of time would...rectify...itself. (Though, of course, there aren't really consistent rules of time travel in Star Trek anyway...sometimes time travel rewrites the past & future...sometimes it creates a whole new timeline. Maybe *both* happen...in a way.)
I think that Nero's arrival *created* the new timeline - but the changes ripples backwards and forwards in time...and that explains the differences we saw on screen.
Instead of time branching off like a "Y" shape from Nero's arrival - it branched off like an "X" shape instead.
If you think about it, if that *didn't* happen - then nuSpock would have memories of a version of himself from an alternate universe journeying back and visiting him as a child (that is, if you accept "Yesteryear" as cannon, which many fans do) - and the nuTrek's history would have a crew of an *alternate* (to them) future crew of an alternate future Enterprise-E who came back and visited them. And it's 20th Century history would have Kirk & Spock & Sulu from an alternate future who visited that past twice.
I think those events - or events *like* them - may very well have happened in the new timeline - but they happened slightly differently - with *that* "new" timeline's versions of Kirk & Spock & Picard & co. going back in time (or *not*!)
Again, if you take into account that in Star Trek's universe, because of time travel, the (relative) future often interferes with and shapes the relative past - an event that creates changes in the timeline would then have a mechanism for rippling in *both* directions along the timeline.
Hence Nero's arrival creates a new timeline/history where Stardates are different, and some technology seems different from how it was in the "prime" timeline.
This is, of course, just my own personal theory - but it's how *I* choose to view the apparent differences and inconsistencies in nuTrek's universe.
It works for me. take it or leave it if you want.
Actually, Future Guy is from one possible future, and we saw a number of possible futures in Enterprise as choices were made.
Every trip back in time, by definition, creates a new reality, a split between a) The traveller arrives, and b) the traveller does not arrive.
Every trip back in time, by definition, creates a new reality, a split between a) The traveller arrives, and b) the traveller does not arrive.
Except that when Admiral Janeway went back in "Endgame", when Daniels went back in Enterprise, the Enterprise-C was sent back to Nerendra III and whatnot, they didn't end up altering anything from before they arrived, only events that occured afterwards - even though various events further in the past depend on interference from further in the future (like Braxton and Daniels) that would/may have changed.
Here's how I see it:
If the timelines all branch from one original like a big tree, then the various incompatible alternate future episodes we've seen ("Shockwave", "Shattered", "Endgame", "Azati Prime" etc) can all be instumental in the creation of a shared, paradox-free past.
Since all these timelines exist concurrently (seen from outside linear time), even the ones that seemingly haven't been created yet can be instumental in this shared past of the multiverse. Therefore stuff like First Contact happened the same for Archer, Kirk, nuKirk, Picard, YE Picard, Old Janeway and Daniels.
Here's how I see it:
If the timelines all branch from one original like a big tree, then the various incompatible alternate future episodes we've seen ("Shockwave", "Shattered", "Endgame", "Azati Prime" etc) can all be instumental in the creation of a shared, paradox-free past.
Since all these timelines exist concurrently (seen from outside linear time), even the ones that seemingly haven't been created yet can be instumental in this shared past of the multiverse. Therefore stuff like First Contact happened the same for Archer, Kirk, nuKirk, Picard, YE Picard, Old Janeway and Daniels.
kkozoriz1
Fleet Captain
George/Sam/Jonny Kirk Jr. was older. Shatner's stick-on moustache confirms this
And who says TOS Chekov isn't STXI Chekov? The former may have experinced some relativistic time dialation, fallen through a wormhole, gotten stuck in a stasis tube or any number of other sci-fi mishaps.
Of course George/Sam was older but he could have been 9-12 months older... Actually I think JT was born in March and in NuTrek he was born in January so it would be tough for Geroge/Sam to squeeze in that same period.
As for Chekov - don't be silly - the odds of Nero's incursion resulting in the same ovum AND the same sperm meeting on a different date are about as astronomical as stumbling into a time travelling Vulcan in a random cave on a random planet. Like that would ever happen.
Maybe George and Jim were identical wins with George being born a few minutes earlier. Something happened in the NuUniverse and they lost one baby. There ya go, older brother in one universe, no George in the other.
It also explains why George looked like Jim with a moustache.
Or *gasp*, we simply didn't see George Kirk on screen, but he was still there.
After all, there is nothing to suggest that George Kirk did not exist, or that his path had been altered from the Prime reality we know (TOS).
We never see the restrooms on the Enterprise, doesn't mean the crew don't have and use them.
After all, there is nothing to suggest that George Kirk did not exist, or that his path had been altered from the Prime reality we know (TOS).
We never see the restrooms on the Enterprise, doesn't mean the crew don't have and use them.
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