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Okay, get ready to throw Tomatoes but I liked "Endgame".

Like Picard said, once you're assimilated you're already good as dead anyway.
So no, killing Borg doesn't count.
Killing a drone is putting that person out of their misery.
There is no way to save them all.
You can't reprogram the minds of billions of species, especially ones from unknown long gone cultures.
 
Like Picard said, once you're assimilated you're already good as dead anyway.

Well, a number of Borg throughout TNG and VOY were freed, although in all cases they had a damn hard time reverting to their previous states.

I think the real problem comes in when you try to free Borg en masse - Unimatrix Zero is gone. There's no easy way to free massive amounts of drones. They tried to free as many Borg as possible in Unimatrix Zero, but they could only do so much before they had to shut the operation down.

And war is war. Fleeters do have compassion and try to be as diplomatic as possible when it's reasonable, but sometimes they simply have to fight to survive. Endgame was the only time they ever really went on an unprovoked offensive - usually Voyager only killed Borg when provoked. Hell, they even tried an alliance with the things in Scorpion.

I'm pretty sure anyone who was around for Wolf 359 would consider someone atop a pile of Borg corpses a hero.
 
I suppose it's difficult to tell the difference between winning a battle and winning a war when you're all dotnose.

The collective it ju...

figured it out.

If the Borg Hive mind is just a complex omnidirectional subspace transmission, which starfleet has had success at blocking with even 'forcefields" (the forcefield latices they erected to capture the space beasties in Equinox could have been used to partition Borg from the Collective, but i suppose that most Drones won't stop following preexisting orders just because they are not receiving new orders otherwise every time a ships shields would go up (even on Cubes), the Borg would free themselves...

Omega bombs.

No subspace no hive mind.

then of course they could have borrowed that Holo Civilwar from a few light years back. Advised them about the walking mainframes that can give them flesh bodies to prance about in?

It'd be like an infection.

If the take over was instantaneous, the Borg could never assimilate enough data to understand the process and they'd be as fucked as they were by 8472... Who janeway could have called for help at almost any point?

Icheb killed cubes.

The kid was poison.

The doctor was an idiot is hhe didn't inoculate the crew with that stuff and every other alien race he met(massive prime directive violation there.) removing the Borgs ability to procreate... But then when the Wraith in Star gate Atlantis had their human food sources poisoned, they just started destroying planets.
 
Endgame was pretty good, certainly one of the shows better offerings imho.

It's one of the few episodes that actually focuses on Janeway's feelings of regret. People keep complaining that the Admiral's trip through time is both risky and selfish, but that's the whole point.

In the end, Admiral Janeway overcomes her grief and sides with the more hopeful voice of her younger self.

That's a nice story, or at least the beginnings of one.
 
Endgame was pretty good, certainly one of the shows better offerings imho.

It's one of the few episodes that actually focuses on Janeway's feelings of regret. People keep complaining that the Admiral's trip through time is both risky and selfish, but that's the whole point.

In the end, Admiral Janeway overcomes her grief and sides with the more hopeful voice of her younger self.


That's a nice story, or at least the beginnings of one.

How do you figure? She succumbs to that grief to the point where she refuses to live in a life where she has to live with the choices she made and then kills herself to make sure she can undo them.
 
Posted by Guy:
She succumbs to that grief to the point where she refuses to live in a life where she has to live with the choices she made and then kills herself to make sure she can undo them.

She overcomes her grief to the point where she gives up a safe, certain outcome for something which is risky, but worthwhile.

YMMV, but thanks for playing!
 
I still would have preferred that (if time travel had to be involved no matter what) Admiral Janeway was coming from a much sorrier future. Timeless worked better than Endgame for this reason, IMO. Timeless' future was awful.

Even better, Timeless showed us Harry and Chakotay's loss. We saw the Voyager crew die in probably the most epic sequence of the whole series. Harry and Chakotay's loss wasn't just mentioned in dialog (like Endgame) but laid out for the audience to see for themselves. Endgame gave us a couple tidbits (Chakotay's grave, Tuvok's mental decline, Seven's name making Janeway uncomfortable) but it looked like a pretty decent future, all things considered. We didn't feel Janeway's desperation or pain because we hardly got to see it or understand it.

It just didn't justify her giving everything up. I can certainly see Janeway turning the old Temporal PD on its head for her people, but I just don't think the situation warranted it. And, even if it did, we never got to see all the events that really pushed her to the edge. There was a fanfic I read once that tried to fill in the long gap in the original Endgame timeline - and holy hell, the writer made it extremely sad. If it went anything like that, I could believe it. But we were left in the dark!
 
Posted by Guy:
She succumbs to that grief to the point where she refuses to live in a life where she has to live with the choices she made and then kills herself to make sure she can undo them.
She overcomes her grief to the point where she gives up a safe, certain outcome for something which is risky, but worthwhile.

YMMV, but thanks for playing!

Define worth while?

And define risky?

Admiral Janeway is an idiot.

Her great plan was kneecapped by her youngerselfs need for glory( it wasn't a nearly almost operational game changing Death star, this transit System had been up and running for decades if not hundreds of years AND THERE WAS SIX OF THEM!.) and she hardly brang all the toys and tools she needed to fight borg 40 years her junior ( I watched the Final Countdown yesterday. A USS Aircraft Carrier from 1980 sails through a time window to December 6th 1941 and they have to decide if they're going to engage the Japanese fleet before it attacks Pearl Harbour... It's exactly the same shit except with backbone.) Which should have been a piece of cake if she wanted to go about a mission with zero risk. There's nothing that happened by Admiral Janeways capture that wouldn't happen any time that Icheb was captured and the Doctor was an idiot is every one wasn't carrying his virus (so that suddenly the Borg and the federation are hammering out protected planet treaties where they only inoculate portions of the galaxy against the Borg in Return the Borg don't destroy all the inoculated planets. Well isn't that just a little bit Stargate season two and three?).

But Admiral Janeway chose a shitty plan instead of a good plan, two shitty plans really, instead of a good plan out of the gate her Youngerself couldn't find fault with because she's an idiot or that she wanted to die. Janeway is only an idiot emotionally. Or course there's the third option that Admiral Janeway is a Genius who offered a shitty plan on purpose because she knew everything would go much smother if the child version of herself thought that it was in charge and mistressing how the ducks were being lined up to attack the hub and Unimatrix 001. Why would Captain Janeway resist Captain Janeways plan(yes I meant to say that.)?

When the Admiral said that she knew it was going to be a one way mission it's kinda obvious that she never intended on going back and she couldn't stay and if she travelled home, great shades of Back to the Future, IT WOULDN'T EXIST... There'd be either another Admiral Janeway waiting for this Admiral Janeway in the future who is a different person telling this (lost and presumptuous)Admiral not to steal her life, her family and her shit (Tom Riker murdered a Clon... I mean Will Riker murdered his clone because ( I quote) the universe is only big enough for one Tom R.. I mean "Will Rikers". These women however, they'd frakking kill each other for their tennis trophies and winner gets to delete Marks wife since whacking that "bitch" (she stole her man, the language is accurate and in context. Haven't you listened to any Modern Country Music?) is going to be piss easy after filleting her doppelgänger for spare parts (for in case of emergency) after 12 rounds of foxey boxing with those broken shard glass boxing gloves... )or a smoking crater in space where the federation used to be... I can't believe I never asked this before but how can she go home if she is rewriting the time line, especially since Miral already tested the time travel device with a trip possibly of her own to make sure the bastard worked (which she said that it did.) that she didn't return to a mildly different universe already that she couldn't live with the guilt of erasing everyone she knew that she elected to allow mad old Janeway to exterminate her and the timeline she was standing on to put her own self out of her misery... Though why did Harry think that he was going to be demoted if the timeline was going to be destroyed out from under him as Janeway leaped back in time to put wrong which once went right?

Besides Korath had been playing with time for how long and he had failed so badly at trying to make the future perfect, exactly how stupid was he to think that even a sane federation officer wouldn't undo everything he had done to time to make him cool and the Klingons on top because unlike Annorax, maybe korath knew when to give up, but maybe he wasn't giving up playing with time more so than deciding that he would ride on Janeways shooting (craps metaphor? The Dude spent a decade hanging out in Las Vegas.) which means that he would have had temporal shields and the universe would change around him as Janeway changed the past if he wasn't a fool, and besides he only gave her one opportunity to see if she could make his universe better by chance than he could by design, and since he was shielded, Korath could have easily undone the Admirals alterations to the timeline without too much effort if he wasn't fond of her accomplishments... (How much of the Federation has temporal Shileds? How large a fleet does the Federation have standing outside of time looming for in case that some bastard doesn't try to destroy earth before the Voth left? It's altogether possibly that time and space is constantly changing around the 25th century Federation fleet and their key planets which are still inside time.)

Um.

My point?

She didn't over come her grief.

bottled it and ignored it.

but dealt with it?

Fuck that.

^ And endangers the whole frickin' galaxy in order to save a handful of people.
Which we should know from watching years of Trek, isn't true.:rolleyes:

But if she "dangers" the entire fricking galaxy then she doesn't save anyone. She's potentially certainly killing everyone to maybe make everythign almost as good 40 years before the era she should care about?

Word for the day "Vagenda".
 
What gave me Le Shits about this episode was that ultimately it boils down it being about Seven of Nine and Janeway's Judi Dench in Notes on a Scandal type bone on for her.

Admiral Janeway didn't go back to alter the timeline to save the 23 nameless no bodies who died or even her BFF Tuvok, she did it for Seven of Nine. Apparently Seven of Nine is so awesome that Admiral Janeway wiped out 16 years of future/history for her. This was an entirely selfish reason and Captain Janeway was stupid and hypocritical for going along with it. In fact it went against all the supposed principles that Janeway apparently held so dear.

That said, they should have brought back the female caretaker. In fact the female caretaker and her race should have been the recurring big bad instead of the Borg. It would have been cool if season seven had been about them going on a quest to find the female caretaker eventually leading to a big showdown in the finale with possibly the delta quadrant and the chance for voyager to get home at stake.

The entire episode has no heart, is vapid and an insult to everyone who loyally watched the show and who had already put up with a lot of bullshit. Quite frankly watching this episode was like having a wank with sand paper.
 
Posted by Guy:
She succumbs to that grief to the point where she refuses to live in a life where she has to live with the choices she made and then kills herself to make sure she can undo them.
She overcomes her grief to the point where she gives up a safe, certain outcome for something which is risky, but worthwhile.

YMMV, but thanks for playing!

Define worth while?

And define risky?

Admiral Janeway is an idiot.

Her great plan was kneecapped by her youngerselfs need for glory( it wasn't a nearly almost operational game changing Death star, this transit System had been up and running for decades if not hundreds of years AND THERE WAS SIX OF THEM!.) and she hardly brang all the toys and tools she needed to fight borg 40 years her junior ( I watched the Final Countdown yesterday. A USS Aircraft Carrier from 1980 sails through a time window to December 6th 1941 and they have to decide if they're going to engage the Japanese fleet before it attacks Pearl Harbour... It's exactly the same shit except with backbone.) Which should have been a piece of cake if she wanted to go about a mission with zero risk. There's nothing that happened by Admiral Janeways capture that wouldn't happen any time that Icheb was captured and the Doctor was an idiot is every one wasn't carrying his virus (so that suddenly the Borg and the federation are hammering out protected planet treaties where they only inoculate portions of the galaxy against the Borg in Return the Borg don't destroy all the inoculated planets. Well isn't that just a little bit Stargate season two and three?).

But Admiral Janeway chose a shitty plan instead of a good plan, two shitty plans really, instead of a good plan out of the gate her Youngerself couldn't find fault with because she's an idiot or that she wanted to die. Janeway is only an idiot emotionally. Or course there's the third option that Admiral Janeway is a Genius who offered a shitty plan on purpose because she knew everything would go much smother if the child version of herself thought that it was in charge and mistressing how the ducks were being lined up to attack the hub and Unimatrix 001. Why would Captain Janeway resist Captain Janeways plan(yes I meant to say that.)?

When the Admiral said that she knew it was going to be a one way mission it's kinda obvious that she never intended on going back and she couldn't stay and if she travelled home, great shades of Back to the Future, IT WOULDN'T EXIST... There'd be either another Admiral Janeway waiting for this Admiral Janeway in the future who is a different person telling this (lost and presumptuous)Admiral not to steal her life, her family and her shit (Tom Riker murdered a Clon... I mean Will Riker murdered his clone because ( I quote) the universe is only big enough for one Tom R.. I mean "Will Rikers". These women however, they'd frakking kill each other for their tennis trophies and winner gets to delete Marks wife since whacking that "bitch" (she stole her man, the language is accurate and in context. Haven't you listened to any Modern Country Music?) is going to be piss easy after filleting her doppelgänger for spare parts (for in case of emergency) after 12 rounds of foxey boxing with those broken shard glass boxing gloves... )or a smoking crater in space where the federation used to be... I can't believe I never asked this before but how can she go home if she is rewriting the time line, especially since Miral already tested the time travel device with a trip possibly of her own to make sure the bastard worked (which she said that it did.) that she didn't return to a mildly different universe already that she couldn't live with the guilt of erasing everyone she knew that she elected to allow mad old Janeway to exterminate her and the timeline she was standing on to put her own self out of her misery... Though why did Harry think that he was going to be demoted if the timeline was going to be destroyed out from under him as Janeway leaped back in time to put wrong which once went right?

Besides Korath had been playing with time for how long and he had failed so badly at trying to make the future perfect, exactly how stupid was he to think that even a sane federation officer wouldn't undo everything he had done to time to make him cool and the Klingons on top because unlike Annorax, maybe korath knew when to give up, but maybe he wasn't giving up playing with time more so than deciding that he would ride on Janeways shooting (craps metaphor? The Dude spent a decade hanging out in Las Vegas.) which means that he would have had temporal shields and the universe would change around him as Janeway changed the past if he wasn't a fool, and besides he only gave her one opportunity to see if she could make his universe better by chance than he could by design, and since he was shielded, Korath could have easily undone the Admirals alterations to the timeline without too much effort if he wasn't fond of her accomplishments... (How much of the Federation has temporal Shileds? How large a fleet does the Federation have standing outside of time looming for in case that some bastard doesn't try to destroy earth before the Voth left? It's altogether possibly that time and space is constantly changing around the 25th century Federation fleet and their key planets which are still inside time.)

Um.

My point?

She didn't over come her grief.

bottled it and ignored it.

but dealt with it?

Fuck that.

^ And endangers the whole frickin' galaxy in order to save a handful of people.
Which we should know from watching years of Trek, isn't true.:rolleyes:

But if she "dangers" the entire fricking galaxy then she doesn't save anyone. She's potentially certainly killing everyone to maybe make everythign almost as good 40 years before the era she should care about?

Word for the day "Vagenda".
One word: Proof.

I want proof that what Janeway did "dangers" the entire galaxy because the writers(GOD) are implying she didn't or if she did, it was one of the violations fixed that was mentioned in "Relitivity".
So in the end, the furture and all those in it are A-Ok.:bolian:
 
You're right, of course.

Janeway didn't endanger the entire galaxy.

Rather, she transferred herself to an alternate timeline. :) Of course, the original is still out there.
 
What's better?

26 years of good history where the federation thrives?

Or 26 years of unpredictable random unmapped uncertain history where the fate of the Federation and every one in it is tipping in the wind?

It's like she was cheating at black jack, winning large, and then for some reason, she stops counting cards.

She demolished a timeline refated a universe.

That's murder on a universal scale, and pomposity unbound.

Imagine some one goes back in time a year exodus, and sets your car on fire. You right now? You're gone. Wiped out of existance. Murdered by that time traveller because all the fun you've had with your car in the last year has been replaced with bussing and taxis if not car shopping if the insurance came through quick. You are the fading photo from back to the Future and it can all be blamed on the actions of this one person playing god with a time machine pouring kerosene onto your car. Would you rather wink out or exist? And is it any consolation that some other version of you is going to replace you in some new universe jutting off in another direction leading a mildly different life a year earlier? maybe your redundant timeline survived and you carry on parallel to a copy of you without a car but Star trek is so inconsistent with time that it's just as possible that you have been destroyed to make room for the carless you.

Does oblivion feel good?
 
What's better?

26 years of good history where the federation thrives?

Or 26 years of unpredictable random unmapped uncertain history where the fate of the Federation and every one in it is tipping in the wind?

It's like she was cheating at black jack, winning large, and then for some reason, she stops counting cards.

She demolished a timeline refated a universe.

That's murder on a universal scale, and pomposity unbound.

Imagine some one goes back in time a year exodus, and sets your car on fire. You right now? You're gone. Wiped out of existance. Murdered by that time traveller because all the fun you've had with your car in the last year has been replaced with bussing and taxis if not car shopping if the insurance came through quick. You are the fading photo from back to the Future and it can all be blamed on the actions of this one person playing god with a time machine pouring kerosene onto your car. Would you rather wink out or exist? And is it any consolation that some other version of you is going to replace you in some new universe jutting off in another direction leading a mildly different life a year earlier? maybe your redundant timeline survived and you carry on parallel to a copy of you without a car but Star trek is so inconsistent with time that it's just as possible that you have been destroyed to make room for the carless you.

Does oblivion feel good?
In the real world, no but this is Star Trek. Which is pure fiction and make believe. If the writers give the impression that the future of Voyager, it's crew and the future of the Trek Universe is secure, who are we to say otherwise? It's not my story, it's theirs and I accept it. From TOS thru to Voyager has given us enough canon for decades to know Trek in general doesn't believe nor is ever about unhappy endings. It ALWAYS ends with the benefit of all the crew and mankind. I used to believe that's what the majority became fans of the franchiese for.
 
I agree that that's what Star Trek should be about, but I don't think I'd want to watch the show if everything the characters did could always be jusitifed with "it will all turn out right in the end because it's Star Trek". In fact, to me that would seriously detract from the characters' credibility, and I could never encourage someone to view a character as any sort of role-model if they never needed to justify their actions because God had already done it for them.

Episodes like ITPM, Lower Decks, Conspiracy, BoBW are compelling to me precisely because not everything turns out right in the end. I want things to turn out right, but it's possible to do that without turning the show into a sitcom. The "let's have a good laugh at the end" moments of TOS were entertaining, but not if you want to consider the show in the same lens people tend to filter TNG or DS9 through.
 
In the real world, no but this is Star Trek. Which is pure fiction and make believe. If the writers give the impression that the future of Voyager, it's crew and the future of the Trek Universe is secure, who are we to say otherwise? It's not my story, it's theirs and I accept it. From TOS thru to Voyager has given us enough canon for decades to know Trek in general doesn't believe nor is ever about unhappy endings. It ALWAYS ends with the benefit of all the crew and mankind. I used to believe that's what the majority became fans of the franchiese for.

Have you read Watchmen? Not seen it, read it, Hollywood fumbled the ending. In the comic, the antihero screwed over everyone, flipped morality upside down and sacrificed a lot. New York City among other things. But his justification was that he would bring about peace and save the world from the nuclear powers digging in and starting WWIII, so after he wins, he's taknig a victory lap asking his former friends who he just cornholed and stabbed in the back "It was worth it right, all the horrible things I did to the planet and to you, it was worth it, because I saved the world, right?" to which Doctor Manhatten replies "Yes, you saved the world, for today."

Admiral Janeway didn't even do that.

She saved the world yesterday.

Which leaves today and tomorrow both in flux.

Because no Janeway really knows what's going to unfold for the next 20 years or the next two millennia specifically because of changes they elected to make to the timeline that never would have come about if not for their butterfly effecting.

Was Annorax creating alternate timelines or was he overwriting time?

By the real world, shmeal world. I was using the real world to attempt to illustrate one set of rules that are sometimes(mostly?) used in Star Trek to finally attempt to converse the wongitudity of what the Admiral did which you take great delight in ignoring ( I assume for humour's sake since you are smart enough to understand what you don't believe in.). Changing the past destroys one future and creates a new one future too who's citizens are bitches tot he changes set in motion by the timetraveler kicking off the dominoes

You're, right, here's no proof that she is changing things for the better or the worse but there is proof that she is changing things for the difference... Remember in Buffy when the Master had the factory that bled people like cows on a conveyor belt in a mirror universe, and Giles is deciding that if time is wrong, that none of this was ever have meant to happen, if his timeline is supposed to not exist does he have the right to wind shit back and destroy everything he's standing on just to give a displaced timeline a second chance? The Master asks him (After he snaps Buffys neck) How do you know that the other universe is going to be any better? And Giles replies "It has to be better than this."

Relatively speaking, there was nothing wrong with Admiral Janeways Future.
 
Admiral Janeway is like one of those angel of death nurses who murder terminal patients because the end doesn't seem worth hanging around for rasping on a ventilator.
 
I agree that that's what Star Trek should be about, but I don't think I'd want to watch the show if everything the characters did could always be jusitifed with "it will all turn out right in the end because it's Star Trek". In fact, to me that would seriously detract from the characters' credibility, and I could never encourage someone to view a character as any sort of role-model if they never needed to justify their actions because God had already done it for them.

Episodes like ITPM, Lower Decks, Conspiracy, BoBW are compelling to me precisely because not everything turns out right in the end. I want things to turn out right, but it's possible to do that without turning the show into a sitcom. The "let's have a good laugh at the end" moments of TOS were entertaining, but not if you want to consider the show in the same lens people tend to filter TNG or DS9 through.
I agree with your points, if we were talking about eps. within the series run but they would NEVER end an entire series with the concept that a Captain and person we were supposed to admire as a mass murderer. If God did it for them, then it was God's plan all along. So was there ever really any crime to require justification? Besides, I think weve also seen from characters like Kirk, Sisko, Archer, Garak, Quark, Suder, B'Elanna, Chakotay, Alexander too name a few, that you don't have to always be a role model to be a hero.

Sorry but on a side note and generally speaking, I just find the idea one in a long line bullshit issues trying once again to villianize the first featured female lead in a Trek series. It's becoming boring in it's repetition already.
 
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