Why do People like Ezri?

[iguana_tonante]

You're incredible.

To quote Chiun the Great, 102nd Master of Sinanju, "No, I am better than that!"

Since you seemed to agree with Admiral Shran, how was I supposed to know you were joking? If so, it was funny.

 

[ares93]

You're incredible.

To quote Chiun the Great, 102nd Master of Sinanju, "No, I am better than that!"

Since you seemed to agree with Admiral Shran, how was I supposed to know you were joking? If so, it was funny.

I do agree with Shran, but since discussion was starting to heat up again, I figured I'll cool it down with a joke. If it worked or not is up for discussion. Nonetheless, lets write this one off as a communications failure, aight?

 

[iguana_tonante]

Yup. I'm always up for defusing any eventual tension with a breath of fresh air. Or with some good ol' rock'n'roll!

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?hl=en&v=CNip8ZEesow&gl=US[/yt]

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Okay....just so we are clear folks - I'm not taking sides on the topic itself...but I will say that I have to come down on the side of IT as to whether or not he was trolling in the post to which you referred, St. William.

Impassioned debate is NOT trolling. Even heated debate is not trolling....although I would prefer we stay away from 'heated' as the next step after that could well be into an area where we WOULD have problems, if someone were to lose their temper.

St. William...you need to dial back the accusations of trolling. And you also need to realize (although how this escaped you until now is beyond me) that IT is a tough debater who is absolutely gonna hold your feet to the fire in a discussion such as this. There are no free passes when debating IT. So you'd better damn well have your ducks in a row when you choose to debate with him. Because debating with IT is no longer the shallow end of the pool, my friend.

All of that said, I would very much appreciate it if you guys DID keep the discussion away from the 'heated' area. It's a very good discussion and I have no interest in ending up having to buzzkill the whole thing because things start straying over the line.

I'm not seeing that yet, and I want to be clear about that...but just be mindful. I would very much prefer to continue thinking about this thread as a 'good discussion'. Not a 'good discussion that ended badly'.

Ya get my drift?

Thanks so much!

 

[Kegg]

It's a different kind of inequality and in fact, a lot of the inequalities that men face are a result of the historical male domination of society.

That's an important point - the double edged sword - and it hints at other problems with gender equality,

And quite often it's not got anything to do with discrimination against men. Women may not die in great numbers in armies on film, but that's because more men serve in armies in the real world, and that has something to do with 'women and children'; the infantilizing of the other gender.

But when you make it an infant, you accrue to yourself the adult tasks you've proscribed it.

 

[Deckerd]

It's a bit unfair to use war films as an example of women's percieved importance over men anyway. How many frontline troops are women? Probably more now than ever before and even then the number is tiny. Before anyone starts on about that being an injustice, the reason women aren't put on the front line is because the vast majority of them are crap at killing people. Deep Space Nine was always far more egalitarian than happens in reality. Science Fiction as a whole has traditionally been gender blind when it comes to battles. Good for them but there in a nutshell is the problem with comparing fiction to reality. You can have Joss Whedon's tiny women flooring giant musclemen but it doesn't happen in the real world. It's supposed to be amusing and having outraged men saying it's damaging them is even more amusing.

 

[TheLobes]

What I liked about Jadzia is that she seemed to have a certain gusto for life. That was fun to watch - and not all that common among all those uptight Starfleet types.

Agreed!

 

[DS9 Gal AZ]

Personally St. William, I hope you were joking about the whole "feminist takeover" and "male chavinism" being the backlash thing. I'm sorry, but as a woman, I know, see, and feel that I still face plenty of inequalities. When women dominate the workplace (not just as low-payed grunts but as management/CEOs), when juries start letting women off for killing their abusives male partners or believing women who bring up rape charges* (and believe me they often don't, I work in this field, I know), when women who have a lot of sex partners are called "players" and admired but men who do the same are called "sluts" and looked down on ... then I will feel that men are being discriminated against. Frankly, I hope that day never comes, but I do hope the day comes when men and women are regarded by all as equals.

*Which is not to say all men are abusive or rapists, not at all.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Science Fiction as a whole has traditionally been gender blind when it comes to battles. Good for them but there in a nutshell is the problem with comparing fiction to reality. You can have Joss Whedon's tiny women flooring giant musclemen but it doesn't happen in the real world. It's supposed to be amusing and having outraged men saying it's damaging them is even more amusing.

Well...that's actually what makes Samus Aran convincing as a character in that mech suit of hers: a different set of strengths and skills is called for, one where she is not at a physical disadvantage. With the right technology to even the odds, I see no reason why women cannot be in front-line combat.

There is also, of course, a minority of women who are physically capable of taking down a man. They are not as common, but they do exist.

And DS9Gal--I'm not Rush Limborg here, but what I can say is that I see injustices going both ways. I think that there is still the older kind of gender discrimination, but there IS also a backlash from some women, some revenge-taking. And there are also other instances of discrimination against men that have never been addressed. Just look at how a man is treated when he is the victim of a sexual crime or domestic violence (and it happens way more than you would think and is NOT a laughing matter). He does not have the resources or the social support that is given to women. What I want to see, personally, is a world where all have access to the same advantages and resources. NOT at each other's expense, NOT by thinking it has to be a one or the other thing, though.

 

[DS9 Gal AZ]

You have a good point Nerys Ghemor. I still don't believe male chauvinism is an acceptable response to this though.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I don't think pointing out that there are injustices against men, or that there's a backlash, is male chauvinism. Part of the reason I see it is because I know how hard-fought women's gains are, and it makes me attuned to see injustice regardless of who it's against. It makes me remember that these are things I would not want done to me, and how I would feel if they were--and it's not acceptable against someone else just because they have a Y chromosome. It goes both ways.

 

[Thestral]

Touche. Still--it was in the Second Season that the creators decided to make her more "wild", more of a Party Girl.

But even from the first season, she has the coy, amused, teasing and altogether confusing attitude around him (indeed--one could say Season 1 was the worst as far as that is concerned....).

The first season is when she was at her most aloof and "otherworldly" too - which is a notably different complaint against her than you've been having.

Oh...I'd say it's a bit of both ways, in that case.

Maybe, but even if so, which one's more notable - Jadzia Dax being a bit flirtatious to defuse an uncomfortable situation... or a Jem'Hadar warrior hitting on her?

I'll give you that. But that kinda proves my point even more, then!

Actually, it disproves your point. Remember, in Fascination everybody was publicly expressing their latent, subconscious attractions. Which tells us that Jadzia is subconsciously (at least?) attracted to Ben Sisko - which except when she's acting explicitly out of character, she keeps under wraps.

Well, that gulf, to be frank, seems to be more of a "grey area". Still, that doesn't make it any less uncomfortable....

Maybe it's uncomfortable, but life is sometimes. There's no onus on Jadzia for that - should she change her behavior just because Julian's misreading her intentions (or even perhaps because she's unsure of her own intentions?)

It's not so much one specific thing he had done, as it is who he is--his character, his spirit, his soul, his personality.

Alright then. What is it that he is? For that matter - you also mentioned Jake, so between Jake, Quark, and Bashir, what is
the is which makes Bashir ok, but not Jake and Quark?

My problem with Jadzia is that she used it on men for her own amusement, without much regard to restraint, on how it affects men.

I'm still not seeing much in the way of evidence for this viewpoint, TBH.

http://www.amazon.com/WAR-AGAINST-BOYS-Misguided-Feminism/dp/0684849577/ref=pd_sim_b_1

http://www.amazon.com/War-Against-Men-Richard-Hise/dp/1930859619/ref=pd_sim_b_10

http://www.amazon.com/Spreading-Misandry-Teaching-Contempt-Popular/dp/0773530991/ref=pd_sim_b_10

http://www.amazon.com/Legalizing-Mi...mination-Against/dp/0773528628/ref=pd_sim_b_1

http://www.amazon.com/Sanctifying-Misandry-Goddess-Ideology-Fall/dp/0773536159/ref=pd_sim_b_2

http://www.amazon.com/Save-Males-Matter-Women-Should/dp/1400065798/ref=pd_sim_b_4

http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Male-Power-Warren-Farrell/dp/0425181448/ref=pd_sim_b_3

So... normally when I ask a blatantly leading question, I'm expecting some of the responder's own thoughts on the matter. Why exactly should I check out those books?

Yup. I'm always up for defusing any eventual tension with a breath of fresh air. Or with some good ol' rock'n'roll!

That was exactly what I was thinking!

Personally St. William, I hope you were joking about the whole "feminist takeover" and "male chavinism" being the backlash thing. I'm sorry, but as a woman, I know, see, and feel that I still face plenty of inequalities. When women dominate the workplace (not just as low-payed grunts but as management/CEOs), when juries start letting women off for killing their abusives male partners or believing women who bring up rape charges* (and believe me they often don't, I work in this field, I know), when women who have a lot of sex partners are called "players" and admired but men who do the same are called "sluts" and looked down on ... then I will feel that men are being discriminated against. Frankly, I hope that day never comes, but I do hope the day comes when men and women are regarded by all as equals.

*Which is not to say all men are abusive or rapists, not at all.

 

[Rush Limborg]

I'm sorry but if she has Jadzia's memories she knows exactly how to manipulate men. You can't have it both ways. Someone with 8 people's memories, frankly, doesn't have a lot of surprises left in her life.

I'm not saying she has no restraint. Obviously that would be a stupid thing to say. But to suggest she's a naive little angel in a world of badness is also a stupid thing to say.

I did not. I'm simply saying she has a quality of innocence about her--not to that level, clearly, but still apparent.

iguana_torrone, you act as if you take everything you disagree with personally.

That's funny, coming from a guy that takes it on himself to "defend a woman's honour" in regard to fictional characters. I don't take it personally. I obviously have no ill feelings towards anybody. It's called being passionate in a debate. I'm an impassioned speaker when I talk about statistical distribution of baryonic matter in the HST deep field, too. I suppose you would label my seminars here at the university as furious rants.

Frankly, iguana, I think it were obvious I was being humorous when I was referring to defeding honor. I know she is fictional. I am simply being lighthearted in expressing my side in the debate.

Kindly stop exaggerating what I and others have said into straw men--and stop puting words in our mouths.

It didn't seem to me I exaggerated any of your positions in regards of the "sex war" . If I unwillingly did, I apologize. But I'd also like to see where I did it.

I'm sorry, how is saying "she's egotistical, vain and slutty because she likes to flirt with people" not judgemental?

Where did I say anything of the kind?

Frankly, some would call what you're doing "trolling". It is tiring to me...and it's tiring for everyone else. Please stop pulling this thread into angry arguments, lest it be locked down.

I have no intent in having this locked down. I'm sure people here can discriminate between passionate debate and angry arguments. As for your accuses of trolling, I won't dignify them with an answer.

Well, you said from the beginning you were reluctant to contribute to this thread. That implies, to be frank, that you are simply arguing to argue.

The "bumbling husband" steretype in tv (which does exist), is a problem just as the "stupid blond bimbo" stereotype, but I don't see you up in arms about that.

Because that is not the subject at hand. If it were, I would be.

Personally St. William, I hope you were joking about the whole "feminist takeover" and "male chavinism" being the backlash thing.

I was being sarcastic, making a point as to why one would not want me to continue the point I'd briefly made. Basically, I was exaggerating to make a finer point.

I'm sorry, but as a woman, I know, see, and feel that I still face plenty of inequalities. When women dominate the workplace (not just as low-payed grunts but as management/CEOs), when juries start letting women off for killing their abusives male partners or believing women who bring up rape charges* (and believe me they often don't, I work in this field, I know), when women who have a lot of sex partners are called "players" and admired but men who do the same are called "sluts" and looked down on ... then I will feel that men are being discriminated against. Frankly, I hope that day never comes, but I do hope the day comes when men and women are regarded by all as equals.

*Which is not to say all men are abusive or rapists, not at all.

I do not contest any of that points. I am referring to the images of men and women in pop culture--as were Shran and Nerys. Note the examples I have cited.

As I have also said, the male chauvinism you see is a self-defeating response to this which I do not endorse or condone in any manner whatsoever.

 

[DS9 Gal AZ]

St. William, that's what I figured. Oh, and I totally don't think you're a troll BTW. In any case, you should check on the latest caption contest, I posted a caption there that might amuse you.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Okay....just so we are clear folks - I'm not taking sides on the topic itself...but I will say that I have to come down on the side of IT as to whether or not he was trolling in the post to which you referred, St. William.

Impassioned debate is NOT trolling. Even heated debate is not trolling....although I would prefer we stay away from 'heated' as the next step after that could well be into an area where we WOULD have problems, if someone were to lose their temper.

St. William...you need to dial back the accusations of trolling. And you also need to realize (although how this escaped you until now is beyond me) that IT is a tough debater who is absolutely gonna hold your feet to the fire in a discussion such as this. There are no free passes when debating IT. So you'd better damn well have your ducks in a row when you choose to debate with him. Because debating with IT is no longer the shallow end of the pool, my friend.

Oh, I have no problem with tough debates, or holding my feet to the fire. My problem is the use of "straw men" and other means of stretching my words to fit what he wants them to mean.

And of course...there is, among other things, his childish pet peeve over my calling those I'm debating with "sir". Sci insists on calling me "dude" in these scenarios--you don't hear me whining about that. It's simply how he, and I, write.

All of that said, I would very much appreciate it if you guys DID keep the discussion away from the 'heated' area. It's a very good discussion and I have no interest in ending up having to buzzkill the whole thing because things start straying over the line.

I'm not seeing that yet, and I want to be clear about that...but just be mindful. I would very much prefer to continue thinking about this thread as a 'good discussion'. Not a 'good discussion that ended badly'.

Ya get my drift?

Thanks so much!

I dig--but I don't exactly care for seeing a subject which I love discussing (and which everyone begged for me to be involved in) dissolving into a debate about feminism and male chauvinism in contemporary culture.

Thus, iguana, as John Adams wrote to Thomas Jefferson, whether you or I are right, posterity must judge. For now, if we could simply agree to disagree on matters of culture, and not allow this to cotinue to dissolve into fits of rage.

Do I like how Jadzia's style of "flirting" with men--the on/off "game" she plays with Julian pre-Worf, for one? Absolutely not. You know my reasons. To be frank, I freely admit Nerys is far more qualified to debate this subject, and has done so more effectively.

But do I think for a moment that she is a "slut", or any other of the exaggerated labels iguana has accused me of giving her? Not at all--not in the slightest.

 

[Rush Limborg]

St. William, that's what I figured. Oh, and I totally don't think you're a troll BTW. In any case, you should check on the latest caption contest, I posted a caption there that might amuse you.

Thanks. That's good to know.

 

[Rush Limborg]

And DS9Gal--I'm not Rush Limborg here, but what I can say is that I see injustices going both ways. I think that there is still the older kind of gender discrimination, but there IS also a backlash from some women, some revenge-taking. And there are also other instances of discrimination against men that have never been addressed. Just look at how a man is treated when he is the victim of a sexual crime or domestic violence (and it happens way more than you would think and is NOT a laughing matter). He does not have the resources or the social support that is given to women. What I want to see, personally, is a world where all have access to the same advantages and resources. NOT at each other's expense, NOT by thinking it has to be a one or the other thing, though.

Right on, right on, right on!

 

[Admiral Shran]

When women dominate the workplace (not just as low-payed grunts but as management/CEOs),

Women are on the way to doing just that. They already outnumber men in college.

when juries start letting women off for killing their abusives male partners

While justice absolutely needs to be served on abusive spouses, regardless of gender, the is such a thing as the female sentencing discount. Here's an example of such a thing from a town close to where I live (with a link to the court documents)....

http://asmalldarklight.wordpress.com/2010/06/18/kim-anderson/

A wife shot her husband in the back, watched him crawl into a closet to hide, then shot him seven more times. She claimed he was abusive, yet no evidence of it was found anywhere. The jury found her not-guilty.

or believing women who bring up rape charges* (and believe me they often don't, I work in this field, I know),

Again, rape is a serious problem and rapists ABSOLUTELY need to be brought to justice, but you can't just take the accuser's word for it. Just look at the Duke Lacrosse Case.

So... normally when I ask a blatantly leading question, I'm expecting some of the responder's own thoughts on the matter. Why exactly should I check out those books?

I've given my thoughts on the matter. Those books provide much, much more detail and examples (more than I could possibly provide here) of the "war" you asked about.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^And also, the conspiracy theories he brought up is an erroneous comparison. For every book or online article swearing up and down that "9/11 Was An Inside Job!", there is the legendary Popular Mechanics piece which systematically tears every single one of the main points of that "theory" to pieces--from "Steel doesn't burn at that temperature", all the way down to "Tower 7".

But--that's for another time....

Touche. Still--it was in the Second Season that the creators decided to make her more "wild", more of a Party Girl.

But even from the first season, she has the coy, amused, teasing and altogether confusing attitude around him (indeed--one could say Season 1 was the worst as far as that is concerned....).

The first season is when she was at her most aloof and "otherworldly" too - which is a notably different complaint against her than you've been having.

Well...neither stage is particularly likeable to me, to be honest. Season 1, she's a bit of a hypocrite--one moment, she's giving Julian a massage on his neck...and accepting his request for "a-a drink" while justifying to Sisko why she's accepting such an invitation from a man who's "a little young for you" ("He's 27--I'm 28!")--

The next--"Julian, I consider myself above such feelings".

Once again, it's the Game--act not interested, and then act interested, and then not interested...

Season 2-on, ("Party Girl" mode), she does the same kind of thing. Recall when she duels with Worf, who remarks that she put on an especially "flattering" outfit to distract him. She goes, "You thought I wore this for you.... Talk about overconfidence!" Yeah.... Again, on-and-off-and-on.

And she continues to flirt after she's engaged to Worf (again, "Let He Who Is Without Sin..."--which, like it or not, is cannon).

Even as far as "You Are Cordially Invited"--she flirts with the Hawaiian dancer, and implies...

Yeah. That's my problem. I...hope that evidence is acceptable.

Oh...I'd say it's a bit of both ways, in that case.

Maybe, but even if so, which one's more notable - Jadzia Dax being a bit flirtatious to defuse an uncomfortable situation... or a Jem'Hadar warrior hitting on her? [/QUOTE]

Oh, I'm not saying that Jem'Hadar doesn't have problems--but his are more easily justified. After all, those guys live their lives deprived of company, and...

Actually, it disproves your point. Remember, in Fascination everybody was publicly expressing their latent, subconscious attractions. Which tells us that Jadzia is subconsciously (at least?) attracted to Ben Sisko - which except when she's acting explicitly out of character, she keeps under wraps.

Yep, I'll give you that one--one of the few times she does so, BTW....

Maybe it's uncomfortable, but life is sometimes. There's no onus on Jadzia for that - should she change her behavior just because Julian's misreading her intentions (or even perhaps because she's unsure of her own intentions?)

Um...yeah?

Alright then. What is it that he is? For that matter - you also mentioned Jake, so between Jake, Quark, and Bashir, what is
the is which makes Bashir ok, but not Jake and Quark?

Going way back to my first post in this thread, I'd venture to say that it's that Ezri sees something of a kindred spirit in Julian:

Ezri, as Shran has put it, is respectful of others, respectful of men. She's the kind of girl you can build a deep, abiding frienship with...one that you can refer to when you're down, and need someone to help you in your hurt.

In this, we see a warm, pleasent, nurturing nature--an innocent desire to help those who need it, to relieve the suffering of those who don't deserve to suffer. This is a most noble, heroic trait, to be honest--and to be frank, it easily indicates the connection with Julian. They both desire to help those who are hurting--Ezri for the emotional, Julian for the physical. (They make a great team, don't they--it helps make them a great couple. Too bad we didn't see much of this kindred element between them in the show....)

In effect, her heart beats in synch with him, a lot.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Holy multiple posts, Batman!

First of all, I must thank CindyLouWho in her mod's hat for her support (not necessarily of my position, but of my style of posting). I bow to wisdom, since I have no intention of causing any ruckus in this thread. At the same time, it was a little unsettling being dubbed IT and talked about like a children-eating monster...

Frankly, iguana, I think it were obvious I was being humorous when I was referring to defeding honor. I know she is fictional. I am simply being lighthearted in expressing my side in the debate.

I know. At the same time, there is wisdom in following your own advice of not acting as if you take everything you disagree with personally.

I'm sorry, how is saying "she's egotistical, vain and slutty because she likes to flirt with people" not judgemental?

Where did I say anything of the kind?

Where? Well, let's see... (I'm not going to identify all quotes, but I'm sure people will recognize themselves)

(Erzi) she's the polar opposite of Jadzia. Instead of using and manipulating men, Ezri respects them. Her personality is sweet, innocent and caring - not arrogant, self-absorbed and ball-busting. She cares about the needs of others. She's warm, inviting and, dare I say it, feminine. She's also vulnerable; not all female characters have to be hard-charging, gung-ho, hoorah Amazons.

Absolutely. Jadzia was notorious for being (...) a Party Girl. Wild, carefree, "free spirit", she is not the person who truly appreciates the "deeper" things of life, contstantly giving snarky remarks that leave little, if anything, sacred.

Jadzia? Well, she's very "freewilling" towards some men, and very coy towards others. It seems to depend on what "mood" she's in--whether she wants to bed a guy in a one-night stand, or play a "game" and make him insane trying to win her favor...which he never does.

(in reference to Worf marrying Jadzia) "Now go thy ways, thou hast tamed a cursed shrew!"

(in reference to Jadzia's behaviour) Gender "equality" does not and should NOT mean lording it over men--sorry. (...) Nor should it be about using sexuality as a weapon in return just because some men did that in the past, or turning men into playthings and treating them like it's OK to emotionally manipulate them for one's amusement, because men are PEOPLE who have the right to dignity, just like anybody else.

In fact, this is what I see as a problem with a lot (not all, but a lot) of Jadzia supporters. They're willing to look beyond her arrogance and manipulating, superficial nature (...)

Her relationship with Worf was a primary example, the way she claim to love him and then would mock everything important to him and piss all over his values. But the way she toyed with Bashir was also pretty arrogant and domineering, too. If she wasn't interested, she shouldn't have led him on (...) I'm not even going to get into the others that I get a feeling were "just" booty calls...the way she acted in her supposedly serious relationships was quite enough for me.

I don't like seeing Jadzia Dax treat men like pieces of meat any more than I liked seeing Kirk treating women that way.

(again, in reference to Jadzia's behaviour) Now...again, there is self-confidence (...) and then there is manipulation of others, for the sake of exercising "freedom"--read, freedom to exercise power over others.

(and...if she's being honest when she tells him she's "above" romance...why IS she wearing perfume so stong that Julian is so quick to take note of it?).

Jadzia had played a game with Julian, the "coy" act, constantly claiming she's not interested--and yet her behavior (...) stronly implying feelings for him (which Ezri would later confirm, of course), and therfore encourages him to keep his hopes up.

THAT is what I call "manipulation" and "power over men". It's maddening how she treats it like a game, spinning him--and, coincidently, Quark, and to a certain extent, Worf--around her finger.

(Jadzia's) warrior princess/Klingon party girl shtick did get a bit old. She could come off as bit self-centered, smug, and holier-than-thou in her judgments at times.

(in reference to men that behave like Jadzia) Playing a game where you tease her to make her interested, and then constantly bash her hopes, and then encourage her again--being, in short, a constant deliberate heartbreaker--

That is NOT "smooth". It is cruel and heartless--not to mention dishonest. Indeed, it is often referred to as "treating women like a piece of meat", or "sexism", or "male chauvinism".

But when a woman does it--oh, she's just "making her own choices", or "being a free spirit", or something similar.

At her best, she's a "big sister/buddy". At her worst, she's a "man-eating seductress"

Jadzia sans Curzon is a heck of a lot more likeable to me than with him. I'd say Curzon's hard-hitting womanizing channeled itself into Jadzia being such a flirt....

Goes to show--she practically flirts with every guy out there except for the Siskos, Odo, and O'Brien. Drives me nuts--no, not in the "good" way.

Somehow...it looks like Ezri was only being half-sarcastic when she said about Jadzia, "I don't think there was anyone aboard DS9 who wasn't her lover!"

You can be unprudish and non-puritanical and not take it to extremes, which is what Jadzia did in my opinion.

Jadzia would clearly be a fun person to hang out with. But as a lover, it's quite clear that it's all about her, her, her.

My problem with Jadzia is that she used it on men for her own amusement, without much regard to restraint, on how it affects men.

Well, I guess that's enough to make my point.