Eugenics Wars.

[Christopher]

Did the show actually say the embryos were next-generation Augments created by Khan and his contemporaries? I remember the impression I walked away with was that they could've been leftovers from the original Chrysalis project in the '70s, so they were Khan's lost siblings, and not lost children.

I believe it was said that the embryos were captured by government forces when the Wars ended. This, to me, would strongly indicate that they were engineered by Khan or his contemporaries.

That wasn't specifically stated. All that was said is that they were "left over from the Eugenics Wars" and that they weren't destroyed after the Wars because it was too controversial. It could be that, in the wake of the Eugenics Wars, the governments of the world investigated what had led to those wars and discovered a hidden Chrysalis cache as a result, leading to a controversy over what to do with them. Thus, people looking back on history could easily blur that together with the Wars themselves. People rarely remember the precise details of everything they studied in history class.

And as I said in another thread, the death toll given in ENT of 30-35 million casualties would seem to indicate that the Wars were fought all across the world, on the scale of a proper, full-blown world war, not scattered brushfire conflicts fought here and there.

Well, as I've said before, I think it's possible to interpret the EW novels as consistent with an open conflict, because it doesn't go into detail about the coverups.

And here's a thought: why do you suppose they were called the Eugenics WarS, plural? Maybe the 1993-96 conflict was only the first Eugenics War, and others came in the ensuing decades.

 

[Lieut. Arex]

It's possible the plural describes both coups used by the genetic supermen to overthrow various governments as well as the subsequent battles they fought amongst themselves.

 

[Christopher]

Well, yeah, but I'm saying that if we choose to interpret it to mean that there were later eugenics conflicts after the one that ended in '96, that can allow us to resolve some continuity questions. Seemingly inconsistent statements about the Eugenics Wars could be explained if they're referring to more than one war.

 

[David cgc]

It would also fit in with the other fan-rationalization that some (Vulcan) historians lump the Eugenics Wars in with World War III, much like some current historians regard World War I and II as the same conflict. If the Augments' fingers stretched throughout the wars of the 21st century, it'd be possible to make a case that the Eugenics Wars and WWIII were the same, extended conflict, even if the human convention is to refer to them separately.

 

[captcalhoun]

my fanon article for my fan-fic was that the EW was several conflicts taking place across the planet at the same time: one in the Balkans, one in central Asia, one in Australia and one in Central America. and a couple of side-events in north and east Africa.

 

[SicOne]

How many Eugenics Wars books were there? As far as I am aware of, there were the two Rise and Fall of KNS, followed by the To Reign In Hell book, so just the three, right?

 

[SicOne]

The way an event is taught by history is often different from the way it's experienced by those living through it, because history filters, reinterprets, and systematizes the events it describes.

Extremely well-spoken.

 

[Saquist]

Are these novels any good and would you recomend them?

Yes, they're really good, fast, lot's of Action, good characters and it's quite entertaining to see how all those little bits of information we have about that period are tied together to one big panorama. Definitely Greg Cox best books and also among the best TOS-Books.

I doubt that. Greg Cox as not a very good writer the few books I tried from him. That Q series was BLAND. I hating reading books where the most interesting thing is the information tie ins.

If someone is just dying to know about the period I guess he would be tolerable he's not as bad as the following authors under Trek.

Dafydd ab Hugh: VOY: INVASION #4 Simply one of the worse books I've ever read. Unsuspenseful and extremely anticlimactic.

Nathan Archer-VOY: Ragnarock- NEVER AGAIN
Eric Kotani & Dean Wesley Smith: VOY: Death of a Neutron Star (I don't know which one of them was at fault but this was a snooze fest)

S.D Perry: Avatar DS9: It's like I said...you're reading for the events but the story isn't well told at all. The events are oddly arrange and as a reader you can't feel where the plot is going.

Andy Mangels & Michael A. Martin TITAN SERIES: Red King/ Taking Wing (Not a good launch. It was VERY hard to decipher all these alien characters, they really had no personality in their books. It wasn't until Christopher L. Bennett in the next book that these characters literally jumped off the page.

And the Mediocre writers:
John Vornholt
J.M. Dillard
David Mack


If you care about reading a good story These are not the guys to read. They are filler authors. Instead go after ...

A.C Crispin
Diane Carey
Peter David
L.A. Graf "Let's. All. Get. Rich. and. Famous."
Christie Golden
Keith R.A. DeCandido
Michael Jan Friedman
Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens
Jean Lorrah
Kristine Katherine Rusch
Howard Wienstien
Diane Duane

 

[SicOne]

And the Mediocre writers:
John Vornholt
J.M. Dillard
David Mack

Gotta step up and defend the Mack-man. Anyone who can rub out sixty-five billion sentients off a Ships Of The Line calendar image is no one to be triffled with.

 

[21Spike65]

And as I said in another thread, the death toll given in ENT of 30-35 million casualties would seem to indicate that the Wars were fought all across the world, on the scale of a proper, full-blown world war, not scattered brushfire conflicts fought here and there.

This makes me wonder...how many people DID die in the 90s during the various wars, genocide attempts, ethnic clashes, etc. that took place? Perhaps history views many of these incidents as symptoms of the larger Eugenics Wars, and groups them all into the larger death toll. I'm not sure if the figure would be quite what ENT quoted it to be, but I imagine it would easily get into the millions.

 

[kkozoriz1]

And here's a thought: why do you suppose they were called the Eugenics WarS, plural? Maybe the 1993-96 conflict was only the first Eugenics War, and others came in the ensuing decades.

In Space Seed Spock does mention that some 80 or 90 of the Eugenic Supermen were missing after 1996. He doesn't say that they later resurfaced. The implication is that they were all aboard the Botany Bay. I would imagine that the wars started in various areas and it was later realized that they were all part of a larger program of eugenics.

 

[EJA]

Of course, if Saddam had supported Khan, then he would have been overthrown too when Khan was. If he resisted Khan's offer, Khan would've had him and his Ba'ath party executed.

 

[David cgc]

Not necessarily. Cuba and North Korea outlasted the Soviet Union.

 

[Christopher]

And like I said, it's a historical fact that Saddam's reign was threatened by insurrections from within throughout the '90s. It would be easy to fit that into the "secret history" premise of the EW novels and assume that that was Khan attempting to punish Saddam for refusing to play along, by clandestinely supporting or organizing the insurrectionists.

 

[JD]

Are these novels any good and would you recomend them?

Yes, they're really good, fast, lot's of Action, good characters and it's quite entertaining to see how all those little bits of information we have about that period are tied together to one big panorama. Definitely Greg Cox best books and also among the best TOS-Books.

I doubt that. Greg Cox as not a very good writer the few books I tried from him. That Q series was BLAND. I hating reading books where the most interesting thing is the information tie ins.

So far I've read only the preview on my Nook, but I really liked that little bit.

If someone is just dying to know about the period I guess he would be tolerable he's not as bad as the following authors under Trek.


S.D Perry: Avatar DS9: It's like I said...you're reading for the events but the story isn't well told at all. The events are oddly arrange and as a reader you can't feel where the plot is going.

Andy Mangels & Michael A. Martin TITAN SERIES: Red King/ Taking Wing (Not a good launch. It was VERY hard to decipher all these alien characters, they really had no personality in their books. It wasn't until Christopher L. Bennett in the next book that these characters literally jumped off the page.

I couldn't possibly disagree with you anymore at all. The Avatar duo and Taking Wing are two of my favorite books I have ever read.

And the Mediocre writers:
John Vornholt
J.M. Dillard
David Mack

You're joking about that last one right.... you really have to be.[/QUOTE]

If you care about reading a good story These are not the guys to read. They are filler authors. Instead go after ...

A.C Crispin
Diane Carey
Peter David
L.A. Graf "Let's. All. Get. Rich. and. Famous."
Christie Golden
Keith R.A. DeCandido
Michael Jan Friedman
Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens
Jean Lorrah
Kristine Katherine Rusch
Howard Wienstien
Diane Duane

Christie Golden? I think you're only like the second or third person I've ever heard say they actually like her books.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I gave up trying to make "best/worst author" lists when I realized that many of those who wrote my most-hated Trek novels also wrote some of all-time favourites.

 

[Lieut. Arex]

Well, yeah, but I'm saying that if we choose to interpret it to mean that there were later eugenics conflicts after the one that ended in '96, that can allow us to resolve some continuity questions. Seemingly inconsistent statements about the Eugenics Wars could be explained if they're referring to more than one war.

True. Since Colonel Green is described as leading a genocidal war in the early 21st century it might have been a related conflict included in the discussions with Green himself either one of the last eugenic supermen loose or a follower of the philosophy which created them.

Of course, the inconsistent statements about the EW arise from GR's adding a war to the Trek universe with "Encounter at Farpoint" and its new World War III of the mid-21st century, which was elaborated upon by First Contact and blended with the EW by ENT's Augment episodes among others. Taking only Spock's comments from "Space Seed", the Eugenics Wars are unambiguously also World War III and confined to the late 1990's.

 

[Christopher]

Of course, the inconsistent statements about the EW arise from GR's adding a war to the Trek universe with "Encounter at Farpoint" and its new World War III of the mid-21st century, which was elaborated upon by First Contact and blended with the EW by ENT's Augment episodes among others. Taking only Spock's comments from "Space Seed", the Eugenics Wars are unambiguously also World War III and confined to the late 1990's.

Yep. When TNG came along, the '90s were too close to be a credible setting for a future war. So Roddenberry's intent, I'm fairly certain, was to retcon the Eugenics Wars out of Trek history altogether. (And the whole WWIII/Post-Atomic Horror thing was basically the backstory from his Genesis II/Planet Earth pilots grafted onto the Trek universe.) His view was that new canon superseded old -- which, really, is pretty much the way it always works, but he seemed to take to it more aggressively than most creators. It was only later in DS9 and ENT that the Eugenics Wars were reasserted as part of Trek history, though they stayed vague about the timing (well, Ron Moore actually got the date wrong by 200 years in "Doctor Bashir, I Presume", an admitted error on his part).

 

[EJA]

I recall an episode of TNG were Picard referenced Khan once. Don't remember which one it was though, or if Roddenberry was still around for that one.

And to be honest, like other people on this forum, I have some difficulties with the notion of Khan working "behind the scenes." If he had nearly all of Asia and the Middle East in his hands, surely he wouldn't have to be clandestine in his operations?

In ENT "The Augments", Malik states that the Botany Bay was launched at the end of the Great Wars. Just thought this might be worth considering to those who reckon Khan was only involved in the "first Eugenics War."

 

[EJA]

Not necessarily. Cuba and North Korea outlasted the Soviet Union.

The USSR wasn't brought down by a mass civilian uprising/civil war or a foreign invasion though.