The Borg ships VOY introduced

[Anwar]

Compared to how big the Assimilation Cube was compared to Fed ships in BOBW and FC, the Tactical Cube IS smaller when you see how it compared size-wise to VOY. Having the name "Tactical" Cube still could mean its weaker. Assimilation Cubes are for the major assimilation of species, while Tactical Vessels are for the earlier military engagements but aren't fit for assimilation duties themselves.

It would've been better for the Borg to be more like the Zerg Swarm: Every single Assimilation Cube would be a Collective unto itself, acting on its own for the greater Borg goal of assimilation but with it's own interpretation of how to achieve this. There wouldn't be one single "Big Voice" controlling all Borg vessels, but a different "Big Voice" for each one. Also, the Collectives could be at odds with one another; attacking and assimilating other Borg into their Collectives to increase their own power and numbers.

This would handily explain why that One Cube operated on its own in BOBW: It was the decision of that one Cube and that one Cube alone, and it didn't bother telling other Collectives what it was doing. So until VOY showed up in the DQ the rest of the Borg wouldn't have been aware of the Feds, but they'd be too busy battling one another for a real joint-invasion (if they even cared enough about the Feds).

 

[exodus]

Compared to how big the Assimilation Cube was compared to Fed ships in BOBW and FC, the Tactical Cube IS smaller when you see how it compared size-wise to VOY. Having the name "Tactical" Cube still could mean its weaker. Assimilation Cubes are for the major assimilation of species, while Tactical Vessels are for the earlier military engagements but aren't fit for assimilation duties themselves.

It would've been better for the Borg to be more like the Zerg Swarm: Every single Assimilation Cube would be a Collective unto itself, acting on its own for the greater Borg goal of assimilation but with it's own interpretation of how to achieve this. There wouldn't be one single "Big Voice" controlling all Borg vessels, but a different "Big Voice" for each one. Also, the Collectives could be at odds with one another; attacking and assimilating other Borg into their Collectives to increase their own power and numbers.

This would handily explain why that One Cube operated on its own in BOBW: It was the decision of that one Cube and that one Cube alone, and it didn't bother telling other Collectives what it was doing. So until VOY showed up in the DQ the rest of the Borg wouldn't have been aware of the Feds, but they'd be too busy battling one another for a real joint-invasion (if they even cared enough about the Feds).

Wouldn't that make the Borg come off as dumb?

The Borg don't twitter?

 

[Anwar]

Nah, they just don't want to share their piece of any pies they find.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Ω

As for that ship in "Descent," I was never convinced that was originally a Borg ship. Seems more like something Lore stole from someone else.

Agreed.

If nothing else, the "Descent" ship was wildly asymmetrical. The Borg, as a rule, do not make ships that look like that. Borg vessels are absolutely orderly as to shape - perfect spheres or cubes.

Either Lore stole it, or it was freshly assimilated and didn't yet become a cube (as ENT's "Regeneration" showed, Borg-assimilated ships are gradually transformed into cubes).

 

[Anwar]

But then what happened to the Borg ship the newly individualized Borg were traveling around in when Lore found them? And if they stole it, who is out there with such a powerful ship?

Frankly, talking about Descent just reminded me of the double standard from TNG to VOY. TNG destroyed the Borg ship with a solar flare, but if VOY did anything like that it'd just get criticized.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Either Lore stole it, or it was freshly assimilated and didn't yet become a cube (as ENT's "Regeneration" showed, Borg-assimilated ships are gradually transformed into cubes).

They were building stuff onto it, but I didn't see anything cube-like.

Frankly, talking about Descent just reminded me of the double standard from TNG to VOY. TNG destroyed the Borg ship with a solar flare, but if VOY did anything like that it'd just get criticized.

Beverlump defeating the Borg all by herself pissed me off far more than anything Janeway and co ever did.

 

[Timo]

Incidentally, why are we opposed to the idea that a small Borg Cube could be considered "tactical"?

I mean, it's only logical. Small ships deal with tactical needs, big ones deal with strategic ones. A small tactical Cube does small jobs, such as space battles; a large strategic Cube does big ones, such as assimilation of cultures.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Anwar]

Because folks can't stand that VOY wasn't blown apart in a single shot by any Borg vessel, and couldn't stand that they could do any damage at all to any Borg ship.

Sure, it's okay for the Ent-E to blow away that Borg Sphere like it was nothing in FC but if VOY destroys a Borg Probe ship that's WEAKER than VOY there's hell to pay.

 

[exodus]

Because folks can't stand that VOY wasn't blown apart in a single shot by any Borg vessel, and couldn't stand that they could do any damage at all to any Borg ship.

Sure, it's okay for the Ent-E to blow away that Borg Sphere like it was nothing in FC but if VOY destroys a Borg Probe ship that's WEAKER than VOY there's hell to pay.

Especially considering the Intrepid class was designed and built after BOBW, after the Defiant when Starfleet was very aware of the Borg and that they had to build smaller stronger ships too withstand a Borg vessels fire power.
I'm not sure why but it seems some seem to forget in BOBW the reason the Borg were whooping our asses was that we weren't ready for them yet. The Admiral tells Picard this loud and clear in the first part when Picard warns Starfleet the Borg are coming.

 

[Kai Winn]

Ω

As for that ship in "Descent," I was never convinced that was originally a Borg ship. Seems more like something Lore stole from someone else.

Agreed.

If nothing else, the "Descent" ship was wildly asymmetrical. The Borg, as a rule, do not make ships that look like that. Borg vessels are absolutely orderly as to shape - perfect spheres or cubes.

Either Lore stole it, or it was freshly assimilated and didn't yet become a cube (as ENT's "Regeneration" showed, Borg-assimilated ships are gradually transformed into cubes).

it looked just like the mighty powerful mine 7 suggested to use and scatter nanoprobes in scorpion.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Either Lore stole it, or it was freshly assimilated and didn't yet become a cube (as ENT's "Regeneration" showed, Borg-assimilated ships are gradually transformed into cubes).

They were building stuff onto it, but I didn't see anything cube-like.

Here you can see a cube shape beginning to form on the aft portion of the assimilated ship. It's clearer in the actual episode when the Enterprise confronts and destroys it.

 

[Timo]

...it looked just like the mighty powerful mine 7 suggested to use and scatter nanoprobes in scorpion.

Or perhaps a mine-sowing vessel? Seven just says that her solution to the problem at hand is "A multikinetic neutronic mine", but her subsequent show-and-tell might feature the total weapons system.

Because folks can't stand that VOY wasn't blown apart in a single shot by any Borg vessel, and couldn't stand that they could do any damage at all to any Borg ship.

But in that respect, it should be a good thing that the vulnerable Borg ship was designated "class 4 tactical" (which sounds small and weak) instead of "class 1 strategic" (which doesn't).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Anwar]

That's what I'm trying to say. I had an argument last year or so where Disillusioned was talking about how VOY invented "Advanced Tactical Borg Ships" that VOY fought and survived against which just made the Borg look weak, while I believe that the Tactical Cube and Tactical Sphere were both WEAKER than the Borg vessels usually seen in Trek so it makes more sense they'd survive.

 

[Jefferies]

There is no definite on screen evidence though as to how large or strong the Tactical Cube really was. I always put the episodes where Voyager kicks Borg ass with minimal effort down to lazy writing. They should have found situations where direct confrontation with the Borg wasn't nesseccary like in BOBW or Scorpion. There the menacing nature of the Borg was maintained and yet the Feds managed to come out on top.

Also people need to keep in mind that the Intrepid class is by no means a warship. It was built as a science and exploration vessel. Compared to ships like the Defiant class and Sovereign class it has much less and much weaker weapons. Thus it should not be able to do much damage to any kind of Borg vessel, let alone destroy them single handedly with a few shots. After all consider that in First Contact it took a whole armada of Starfleet warships that had been purpose built to fight the Borg in order to bring down a single Cube.

 

[Timo]

Also people need to keep in mind that the Intrepid class is by no means a warship. It was built as a science and exploration vessel. Compared to ships like the Defiant class and Sovereign class it has much less and much weaker weapons.

How can we tell? The number of phaser strips on the Voyager is basically the same as on the E-E, while the smaller ship has better overall coverage. The number of phaser strips or other phaser mounts on the Voyager is vastly greater than on the Defiant. Torpedo tube count seems to be something like Voyager 4, Defiant 4, E-E 5 at minimum in the early movies, 10 at maximum in ST:NEM.

We never hear what the Voyager was built for, unless we count Tom Paris' humorous "for combat performance, not musical performance". If we want to divine her intended mission, we have only two examples to go by: the Maquis hunt from "Caretaker", and the courier mission of a sister ship from DS9 "Inter Arma Silet Leges". All the rest of the exploits of this ship class were unintended, imposed on the ship by the Delta quadrant, and would have to have been performed even if she happened to be an Oberth or Juggernaut class vessel.

For all we know, the Voyager was intended to be a combat vessel by design, whereas the E-E was designed for exploration and only carried some incidental armaments for defensive purposes.

Whether Starfleet ever built any of its starships as dedicated Borg-killers is debatable, considering how poorly starships in general have fared against Borg vessels. It's almost invariably some unconventional dirty trick pulled off by the crew of a generic starship that stops the Borg. The only known dedicated Borg-killer, the Defiant, was declared a failure before completion, was subsequently utilized for armed recce, and didn't fare too well when finally getting to face a Borg Cube...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kai Winn]

i reckon the power output of phasers and shields was a lot bigger on both e-e and defiant than on voyager, and they stored a lot more torpedoes. where all that energy came from on the small defiant is difficult to understand, it's power core looked a bit undersized, but it was a dedicated warship, and voyager is not.

 

[Anwar]

The Sovereign class destroyed a Borg Sphere like it was NOTHING. No one complained there.

Plus, the Intrepid was designed and launched after the Defiant class and the other more War-Oriented classes like the Akira/Norway/Steamrunner/Sabre class ships. Any advances they have, the Intrepid would have. The Intrepid was probably superior to 50% of the ships in FC at the Borg battle.

 

[exodus]

There is no definite on screen evidence though as to how large or strong the Tactical Cube really was. I always put the episodes where Voyager kicks Borg ass with minimal effort down to lazy writing. They should have found situations where direct confrontation with the Borg wasn't nesseccary like in BOBW or Scorpion. There the menacing nature of the Borg was maintained and yet the Feds managed to come out on top.

Also people need to keep in mind that the Intrepid class is by no means a warship. It was built as a science and exploration vessel. Compared to ships like the Defiant class and Sovereign class it has much less and much weaker weapons. Thus it should not be able to do much damage to any kind of Borg vessel, let alone destroy them single handedly with a few shots. After all consider that in First Contact it took a whole armada of Starfleet warships that had been purpose built to fight the Borg in order to bring down a single Cube.

When did Voyager ever single handedly destroy any Borg vessel with just a few shots?

Why would Starfleet put thousands of Officers lives in serious jeapody by continuing to send them out into deep space to explore without improving the tactical design of their vessels to defend itself?

If the Intrepid class was built inbetween the Defiant class & Prometheus design, why would you still assume Voyager is weaker? Especially after they've repeated season after season that the Intrepid class was more advanced than any ship before it. The Tri-Cobalt torpedos is stocked in "Caretaker" alone were more powerful than any artillary the Defiant had, Voyager was also twice as fast.

 

[exodus]

i reckon the power output of phasers and shields was a lot bigger on both e-e and defiant than on voyager, and they stored a lot more torpedoes. where all that energy came from on the small defiant is difficult to understand, it's power core looked a bit undersized, but it was a dedicated warship, and voyager is not.

I think this is the problem.
I think we assume that sometimes bigger means more powerful and that because Defiant=warship, that any other Starfleet ship is weaker in comparision.

 

[Deks]

i reckon the power output of phasers and shields was a lot bigger on both e-e and defiant than on voyager, and they stored a lot more torpedoes. where all that energy came from on the small defiant is difficult to understand, it's power core looked a bit undersized, but it was a dedicated warship, and voyager is not.

I think is the problem.
I think we assume that sometimes bigger means more powerful and that because Defiant=warship, that any other Starfleet ship is weaker in comparision.

Indeed.
I actually proposed that the Intrepid is in fact a downsized Galaxy class.
Equal in shield/weapons output but overall smaller torpedo count and size while being faster.

The Defiant can probably rival larger ships because it doesn't have any luxuries on-board and most of it's systems were specifically made to fight the Borg.
The Intrepid is able to rival it's larger 'brothers' because it has a medium between luxuries and tech for combat.
The luxuries were downsized to the amount where it would be able to cater to a crew of only 150 leaving the rest for more powerful energy source, shields and weapons.

The Galaxy class is FILLED with luxuries in contrast and has to accommodate a much larger crew.

Bigger doesn't always mean 'more powerful' in Trek.