Any connection between Battle of Axanar and Battle of Donatu V?

[ghoyle1]

Both of these battles seem to have taken place in the 2240s, according to what little I could dig up about them. Is there any reason to believe that they are not some part of a larger military event (such as a war with Klingons?) Garth of Izar is at his height of glory. There is also a suggestion in "Whom Gods Destroy" that there was a significant threat to the Federation at this time. Any other info would be appreciated. I was wondering if this era would be a good one for some stories.

Guy

 

[kkozoriz1]

They were part of The Four Years War according to the FASA RPG.

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Four_Years_War

 

[Captain Robert April]

Well, the battle at Donatu V was fought twenty-three years prior to "The Trouble With Tribbles", putting it in 2244, and given the proximity to the Klingon border, it's a pretty safe bet that it involved the Klingons (I used that incident in one of my SNW submissions as part of the reason Capt. April got command of the spanking new Enterprise in 2245).

All we know about Axanar, however, is that it occurred prior to Kirk's time at the Academy (have to allow for enough time for the event to make it into the textbooks), and that first contact was made by Capt. Archer in 2151. All things considered, I doubt Garth was fighting the Axanar; most likely he was defending Axanar against some other enemy. Could be the Klingons, could be the Kzinti, could be the Pakleds for all we know, but I'd push it a little further back than Donatu V.

 

[Potemkin_Prod]

IIRC, one of JTK's first assignments was to Axanar as part of a peace mission to the planet. In his insanity, Garth repudiated the mission. JTK argued that they were idealists with a dream that eventually led to a unification of sorts (possibly the Federation itself) which made it possible for he and Spock to consider themselves brothers.

 

[Wingsley]

Unless you subscribe to FASA role-playing history, there is no canonical evidence in TOS to support a connection between either of these incidents. That having been said, we could speculate that there was a war (or a series of cold-war-style confrontations) between the Federation and the Klingons, or perhaps some third party was involved.

The only military incident we know off between the Federation and the Klingons in that era was the Battle of Donatu V, which Spock called "inconclusive". This suggested a stalemate. We do not know if Spock meant that there was an actual war going on from what he said during the briefing. For all we know, the Battle of Donatu V could've been a series of starship engagements and evasions where both sides sustained damage and/or casualties, and nobody came out ahead, so both sides decided the confrontation wasn't worth it. (Not unlike what happened at Organia.)

 

[ghoyle1]

IIRC, one of JTK's first assignments was to Axanar as part of a peace mission to the planet. In his insanity, Garth repudiated the mission. JTK argued that they were idealists with a dream that eventually led to a unification of sorts (possibly the Federation itself) which made it possible for he and Spock to consider themselves brothers.

That's the part that intrigues me. Kirk makes it sound as if the Federation was in danger of breaking up, and that Garth might have had a part in preserving it. Am I misreading this, or is itpossible that the Federation was threatened with some kind of civil war in the Pike era or just before? (It would be sheer speculation, I know, but a fun idea to kick around.)

 

[Wingsley]

It could be that there were confrontations between the various parties (Federation, Klingons, possibly other powers) that threatened to escalate from a cold war to a hot one, and the Federation and representatives of its member-worlds decided to step in and take some chances and intervene to resolve whatever conflict was brewing. Kirk told Garth they had a vision, and it spread throughout the stars. Maybe the UFP and the Klingons of the 2240s were headed toward open warfare and the diplomats found a way to diffuse the tensions and assure peace for a generation to come.

 

[ghoyle1]

It could be that there were confrontations between the various parties (Federation, Klingons, possibly other powers) that threatened to escalate from a cold war to a hot one, and the Federation and representatives of its member-worlds decided to step in and take some chances and intervene to resolve whatever conflict was brewing. Kirk told Garth they had a vision, and it spread throughout the stars. Maybe the UFP and the Klingons of the 2240s were headed toward open warfare and the diplomats found a way to diffuse the tensions and assure peace for a generation to come.

But I'm still a bit baffled by the reference that Kirk made to whatever happened at Axanar making it possible from him and Spock to become like brothers. It can't be something trivial, like being where he and Spock first met, because that's not relevant to the situation with Garth. That sounds to me as if Vulcan was in danger somehow of leaving the Federation, and the incident at Axanar prevented this.

What I suspect (without a shred of evidence to back me up) is that when Kirk is talking about the idealism that led to him and Spock yadda yadda, is that what he's referring to the birth of the Federation itself! (Wait, wait, let me explain!) We know that a lot of Star Trek background chronology wasn't firmly nailed down during TOS, including the age of the Federation. It remained for later series to tie it to the end of the Earth/Romulan War. Unless we want to postulate that the Federation was having a political crisis bad enough to make Vulcan consider withdrawng from the Federation (subsequently resolved by a Peace Mission to Axanar), then I think that the idealists Kirk refers to are the founding fathers of the Federation, and that this event happened at about the time Garth was active as a Starship captain (which is in conflict with the accepted date 2161).

My logic is probably flawed. I would love to know what whoever wrote the episode meant when he or she wrote those lines, but I don't suppose that's ever gonna happen.

 

[ghoyle1]

Oops. I just realized, Garth was poo-pooing idealists peacemakers like those at Axanar, and Kirk was saying that idealsts were the ones (throughout the history of the Federation) that had made it possible for the Federation to exist. I was reading far too much into the scene.

I now officially repudiate my previous theory as the ravings of a madman ;-)

Guy

 

[Captain Robert April]

Let's all take a look at the scene in question, just so everyone's on the same page:

GARTH: You'll find that I am magnanimous to my friends and merciless to my enemies, and I want you, both of you, to be my friends.

SPOCK: On what, precisely, is our friendship to be based?

GARTH: Upon the firmest of foundations, Mister Spock. Enlightened self interest. You, Captain, are second only to me as the finest military commander in the galaxy.

KIRK: That's very flattering. I am primarily an explorer now, Captain Garth.

GARTH: And so have I been. I have charted more new worlds than any man in history.

KIRK: And tried to destroy Antos Four. Why?

GARTH: Well, I could say because they were actively hostile to the Federation.

KIRK: Yes, you could say, but that would be untrue.

GARTH: Agreed. Actually they were quite harmless, and they made me whole when I was maimed and dying. And in my gratitude, I offered them the galaxy. They rejected me, and I condemned them to death.

SPOCK: How could you, a Starship fleet Captain, believe that a Federation crew would blindly obey your order to destroy the entire Antos race, a people famous for their benevolence and peaceful pursuits?

GARTH: That was my only miscalculation. I had changed. I had risen above this decadent weakness which still has you in its command, by the way, Captain. My crew had not. I couldn't sway them, but my new crew, the men in this room, will obey my orders without question. Gentlemen, you have eyes but you cannot see. Galaxies surround us, limitless vistas. And yet the Federation would have us grub away like some ants on some somewhat larger than usual anthill. But I am not an insect. I am master of the universe, and I must claim my domain.

KIRK: I agree there was a time when war was necessary, and you were our greatest warrior. I studied your victory at Axanar when I was a cadet. In fact it's still required reading at the Academy.

GARTH: As well it should be.

KIRK: Very well. But my first visit to Axanar was as a new fledged cadet on a peace mission.
GARTH: Peace mission! Politicians and weaklings!

KIRK: They were humanitarians and statesmen, and they had a dream. A dream that became a reality and spread throughout the stars, a dream that made Mister Spock and me brothers.

GARTH: Mister Spock, do you consider Captain Kirk and yourself brothers?

SPOCK: Captain Kirk speaks somewhat figuratively and with undue emotion. However, what he says is logical and I do, in fact, agree with it.

GARTH: Blind! Truly blind! Captain Kirk is your commanding officer and you are his subordinate. That is all. Yet, Mister Spock, you are a worthy commander in your own right, and in my fleet, you will surely have a Starship to command.

SPOCK: Please forgive me, but exactly where is your fleet?

GARTH: Out there waiting for me. They will flock to my cause, and for good reason. Limitless power, limitless wealth, and solar systems ruled by the elite. We, gentlemen, are that elite, and we must take what is rightfully ours from the decadent weaklings that now hold it.

SPOCK: Captain Garth

GARTH: Lord Garth!

SPOCK: As you wish. At any rate, you must be aware of the fact that you are attempting to recreate the disaster which resulted in your becoming an inmate in this place.

GARTH: I was betrayed and treated barbarically.

SPOCK: On the contrary. You were treated with justice, and with compassion which you failed to show towards any of your intended victims. Logically, therefore, one must assume --

GARTH: Remove this animal!

Keep in mind, this is with regard to a third season retread of "Dagger Of The Mind", so there's bound to be some credibility drift.

 

[ghoyle1]

Thanks for putting it in perspective, Captain April.

So what we do have is:

1) Captain Garth was the Federation's finest warrior, at a time when the Federation needed warriors.

2) His victory at Axanar was required reading at the Academy during Kirk's time and continues to be so at the time of the episode. This establishes it as occurring prior to Kirk's entrance into the Academy, so sometime prior to 2250 (approximately)

3) As a new-fledged cadet, Kirk was part of the Peace Mission to Axanar. I read this to mean that Axanar had a significant role to play in the hostilities, whether or not external powers (such as Klingons) were involved.

3) Garth was also an explorer, and discovered more new worlds than any other captain (at least, at the time). Possibly irrelevant to this discussion, but it does go to show that the period of hostilities was only a few years, and not a few decades (to leave room for exploration). His exploits probably took place both before and after the Battle of Axanar.

4) The Battle of Donatu V also took place in the same time period (2243?0, near the Klingon border. If these two battles are part of the same set of hostilities, then Klingons may have been involved at Axanar, too (speculation).

5) The first mention of possible war, in TOS Season 1, is the breakdown in negotiations with the Klingons in "Errand of Mercy".

That's very little information to go on. I would tentatively suggest that the Klingons and the Federation engaged in a war in the 2240s, during which Garth of Izar served with great distinction (" I agree there was a time when war was necessary, and you were our greatest warrior"). (Christopher Pike was active in Starfleet during this time, but his role is unknown.) There were major battles at Donatu V involving Klingons, and a decisive battle at Axanar. Participation in the resulting Peace Mission earns then-Cadet James T. Kirk a medal, the Palm Leaf of Axanar Peace Mission, so apparently Axanar played a crucial role in the war. Apparently, though, peace with the Klingons requires an ongoing series of negotiations, because they are on the verge of breaking down a couple of decades later, in "Errand of Mercy".

Not very much to go on. It is sheer speculation that the battle of Axanar involved Klingons but it's not much of a stretch since we know they were involved at Donatu V at roughly the same time (unless we want to assume that the Federation was in conflict with several enemies at this time). In "The Cage", Christopher Pike's disenchantment with starship command might be a sign that he saw too much of the bloody war, as well, and was suffering some kind of post-traumatic stress.

Not sure where I'm going with this, but it could be an interesting setting for a story, or series of stories.

 

[Wingsley]

Thanks, CRA, for quoting the scene above.

That's a big help.

As far as this scene suggesting the birth of the Federation at Axanar, I can see where someone might conclude that. This is one of many dialogues throughout the series that was written and acted to be just vague enough to mean whatever anyone wants it to mean. Nobody explicitly said that the Federation was born at Axanar, or that Federation history somehow went through a massive upheaval as a result of Axanar, but clearly something historic happened (1: at some point prior to Kirk enrolling at Starfleet Academy, and again (2: when Kirk, as an Academy cadet, served on a peace mission there.

It is not clear to me that the Federation was either collapsing or endangered by external threats during the Battle of Axanar, or that such a threat precipitated the later peace mission. All we know is that Captain Garth conducted some kind of military action at Axanar prior to Kirk enrolling at the Academy (thus vaguely placing the Battle of Axanar at 20 years prior to "Whom Gods Destroy") and that Garth's actions were widely praised in the Federation, becoming required study at Starfleet Academy. We also know that Cadet James T. Kirk attended a peace mission there. It is unclear if the Battle of Axanar and the later peace mission are connected.

The whole conversation is tantalizingly vague. You can assign just about any meaning you want to it. And, like a misbehaving kitten, it is just as easy to get all tangled up in this ball of yarn and wait for Mom to come along and rescue you...

 

[ghoyle1]

I misinterpreted the whole "Birth of the Federation" thing at Axanar, and am happy to discard it. Clearly it is not tied to Axanar.

Axanar's main significance is that Garth's victory there was one of great (but unknown) significance, and that new-fledged cadet James T Kirk earned the first of many Starfleet honors at subsequent Axanar Peace Mission.

Guy

Thanks, CRA, for quoting the scene above.

That's a big help.

As far as this scene suggesting the birth of the Federation at Axanar, I can see where someone might conclude that. This is one of many dialogues throughout the series that was written and acted to be just vague enough to mean whatever anyone wants it to mean. Nobody explicitly said that the Federation was born at Axanar, or that Federation history somehow went through a massive upheaval as a result of Axanar, but clearly something historic happened (1: at some point prior to Kirk enrolling at Starfleet Academy, and again (2: when Kirk, as an Academy cadet, served on a peace mission there.

It is not clear to me that the Federation was either collapsing or endangered by external threats during the Battle of Axanar, or that such a threat precipitated the later peace mission. All we know is that Captain Garth conducted some kind of military action at Axanar prior to Kirk enrolling at the Academy (thus vaguely placing the Battle of Axanar at 20 years prior to "Whom Gods Destroy") and that Garth's actions were widely praised in the Federation, becoming required study at Starfleet Academy. We also know that Cadet James T. Kirk attended a peace mission there. It is unclear if the Battle of Axanar and the later peace mission are connected.

The whole conversation is tantalizingly vague. You can assign just about any meaning you want to it. And, like a misbehaving kitten, it is just as easy to get all tangled up in this ball of yarn and wait for Mom to come along and rescue you...

 

[T'Girl]

It is not clear to me that the Federation was either collapsing or endangered by external threats

The Federation would seem to have been in existence prior to the time period of what happen at Axanar, so perhaps the event of Axanar was the Federation's version of "The Great Patriotic War." It in some way pulled the previously existing Federation together into a whole that wasn't there before.
--------
Another possibility is that Garth, as a non-Human, is well over a century old and the battle of Axanar and the Axanar peace mission were separated in time by several decades.

 

[blssdwlf]

Don't forget that Garth learned from Antos 4 how to heal his body (even regenerate from damage) making him potentially immortal. As T'Girl pointed out, we don't know how old Garth is and he could be significantly older and the "Battle of Axanar" might date to the Romulan War or earlier.

 

[ghoyle1]

It is not clear to me that the Federation was either collapsing or endangered by external threats

The Federation would seem to have been in existence prior to the time period of what happen at Axanar, so perhaps the event of Axanar was the Federation's version of "The Great Patriotic War." It in some way pulled the previously existing Federation together into a whole that wasn't there before.
--------
Another possibility is that Garth, as a non-Human, is well over a century old and the battle of Axanar and the Axanar peace mission were separated in time by several decades.

I agree that there is no reason to assume that the Federation had only been in existence for a short time prior to Garth's victory at Axanar; my theory about that was quickly demolished when I took the time to look that scene up. Nor do I think that the Federation was in any danger of breaking up at that time; Kirk was referring to idealists such as the ones which founded the Federation, and that was the source of Kirk's reference to his "brotherly" relationship with Spock. This relationship had nothing to do with Axanar or the peace mission, either, so that's moot.

Are there any other references to Federation military action before TOS, besides the references to Axanar, Donatu V, and the Earth/Romulan War?

Guy

 

[blssdwlf]

According "The Undiscovered Country", "70 years of unremitting hostility with the Klingons" were about to come to an end. So that would put a potential Klingon conflict 20 years prior to Donatu-5 if TUC occurred in the mid-2290s.

 

[ghoyle1]

Don't forget that Garth learned from Antos 4 how to heal his body (even regenerate from damage) making him potentially immortal. As T'Girl pointed out, we don't know how old Garth is and he could be significantly older and the "Battle of Axanar" might date to the Romulan War or earlier.

I thought of that, but "Whom Gods Destroy" is the source of both of those references, and one would expect them to be directly connected unless there was something mentioned to the contrary; when you see hoofprints, you expect to find horses, not unicorns. We know that Kirk studied Garth's victory at Axanar in the Academy, and that his first mission was on the peace mission to Axanar; that establishes that the Peace mission happened after Garth's victory. Garth could be an immortal, true, but there's no reason to assume that given in the episode itself. Besides, Garth is a human name, and we know humans have colonies on other planets; besides, most starship captains in TOS seem to have been humans, with the exception of the unnamed Vulcan captain of the Intrepid. Zephram Cochrane was known as "Zephram Cochrane of Alpha Centauri" to Kirk, and he was human. In the absence of proof to the contrary, I see no reason to assume that Garth was either non-human or immortal.

 

[ghoyle1]

According "The Undiscovered Country", "70 years of unremitting hostility with the Klingons" were about to come to an end. So that would put a potential Klingon conflict 20 years prior to Donatu-5 if TUC occurred in the mid-2290s.

Just so we're clear, the hostilities started 20 years prior to Donatu V and continued up until TUC, correct? So Donatu V would have been part of that hostile period, since "unremitting" means "never slackening or stopping; unceasing; constant". Which doesn't take into account the enforced peace of the Organian Peace Treaty in 2267, of course ;-/

I find it hard to beleive that the Federation was in a constant state of war for 70 years, since the Enterprise, the pride of Starfleet, saw relatively little action against the Klingons. so I guess the idea of the Cold War with various flareups makes the most sense.

 

[blssdwlf]

KIRK: How does he manage to change form at will?
CORY: The people of Antos taught him the techniques of cellular metamorphosis to restore the destroyed parts of his body. By himself, he later learned to use the technique to recreate himself into any form he wished.

Garth was being ravaged by some type of disease that was cured through what the Antos taught him. He was able to restore destroyed body parts and with some thought alter is physical appearance. That can put him in potential immortal territory.

Or let's backtrack a bit. How old should Garth be?

Joins academy at age 17 or 18.
Graduates at 23-24.
Has an awesome career that is required reading at the Academy. That could be a few years to a few decades.
Kirk joins Academy ~17 years prior to episode

So Garth at the minimum would be 24+ 5? + 17 = 46 years old or much older given his career and exploits.

But he looks pretty good for his age, whatever it might be

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x14hd/whomgodsdestroyhd0085.jpg