The Borg ships VOY introduced

[Anwar]

I know VOY gets flack for being able to do any damage whatsoever to any Borg ship, and it was considered "heresy" that they could blow up that Probe ship that one time but there's something else I've noticed:

The Borg Tactical Sphere and the Borg Tactical Cube shown in the series were actually both still MUCH smaller than the massive "Assimilation" Cubes we saw in Q Who?, BOBW, FC and Scorpion.

Is it likely that despite having cooler names both of these ship types are actually much weaker than the "normal" Cube type seen (which was practically unstoppable)? I saw a size comparison chart once that showed a Tactical Sphere not being that much bigger than a few Sovereign class ships, certainly not the massive Cube size seen in FC or BOBW.

 

[Python Trek]

Making the Borg invulnerable in QWho? worked quite well for that story. They even found a backdoor in Best of Both Worlds, but the damn Borg should never have appeared again. We just knew they would be de-fanged at some point. I guess they were "only mostly invulnerable", to paraphrase Miracle Max. And with the introduction of the Queen (what happened to "no individuals"?), they became just another alien baddie. Why not weaken their ships, over time? Given another season or two, and Voyager would've been knocking out two ships with one shot. Meh.

 

[Anwar]

I do agree that the one Cube in BOBW should've been the only Cube in existence and they all die in BOBW. There's only so much you can do with such a limited concept.

BUT, if they had just made it clear that VOY was fighting Borg ships that were all vastly weaker than the ships seen in TNG (after all, the ENT-E destroyed that one Sphere easily and no one complained) maybe it would've gone over better.

 

[The_Baroness]

Problem is, just 'cos it's bigger, don't mean it's stronger.

Am I right in thinking that the tactical cubes are the ones with all the armour sellotaped to the outside? Cos they've gotta be pretty 'ard. I mean, bits of metal!!

I know I'd rather be shooting at a big chunky box with lots of surface area to hit and light armour, than a small squatty box thats harder to hit and looks like it's been covered in titanium gift wrap....

 

[Anwar]

Just because it has some accessories on the outside and has a more battle-oriented name doesn't mean it's stronger. I mean, the Sphere was a "Tactical Sphere" but we saw the Ent-E destroy one easily in FC. So having "Tactical" in the name doesn't count for much.

 

[Ayelbourne]

The Borg Tactical Sphere and the Borg Tactical Cube shown in the series were actually both still MUCH smaller than the massive "Assimilation" Cubes we saw in Q Who?, BOBW, FC and Scorpion.

I've always assumed, that the Assimilation Cubes were, what the game ST: Armada 2 called "Fusioncubes".

Basically they're Cubes consisting of 8 ordinary cubes that "fused".
In the game, those were really devastating, having the firepower of 8 cubes.

 

[Anwar]

The Fusion Cube was supposed to be what happens when 8 Assimilation Cubes join together, I think.

 

[RyuRoots]

I know VOY gets flack for being able to do any damage whatsoever to any Borg ship, and it was considered "heresy" that they could blow up that Probe ship that one time

Do please get over yourself, people don't think this.

but there's something else I've noticed:

The Borg Tactical Sphere and the Borg Tactical Cube shown in the series were actually both still MUCH smaller than the massive "Assimilation" Cubes we saw in Q Who?, BOBW, FC and Scorpion.

Is it likely that despite having cooler names both of these ship types are actually much weaker than the "normal" Cube type seen (which was practically unstoppable)? I saw a size comparison chart once that showed a Tactical Sphere not being that much bigger than a few Sovereign class ships, certainly not the massive Cube size seen in FC or BOBW.

Do you remember where you saw the size comparison? I'm interested.

 

[Saquist]

I know VOY gets flack for being able to do any damage whatsoever to any Borg ship, and it was considered "heresy" that they could blow up that Probe ship that one time but there's something else I've noticed:

The Borg Tactical Sphere and the Borg Tactical Cube shown in the series were actually both still MUCH smaller than the massive "Assimilation" Cubes we saw in Q Who?, BOBW, FC and Scorpion.

Is it likely that despite having cooler names both of these ship types are actually much weaker than the "normal" Cube type seen (which was practically unstoppable)? I saw a size comparison chart once that showed a Tactical Sphere not being that much bigger than a few Sovereign class ships, certainly not the massive Cube size seen in FC or BOBW.

You are correct.

 

[Anwar]

Do you remember where you saw the size comparison? I'm interested.

http://www.st-minutiae.com/misc/comparison/

 

[Tulaberry whine]

Surely a 'Borg tactical cube' is a contradiction in terms.

 

[Kai Winn]

Do you remember where you saw the size comparison? I'm interested.

http://www.st-minutiae.com/misc/comparison/

the trek encyclopedia ditl.org indicates that the tactical cube has the same size (3x3x3km), and substantially heavier weaponry than the all-purpose vessel. on the bottom of your chart, what's the "star trek universe class"? never seen.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Do you remember where you saw the size comparison? I'm interested.

http://www.st-minutiae.com/misc/comparison/

For starters, that chart is wrong. The 2009 Enterprise is 725m long (it's on the Bluray and in the "Art of" book), not 300. It's got a whole fleet of shuttles, an entire beer brewery for an engine room and a whole deck behind the bridge.

Second, size doesn't equal strength in Star Trek. Look at how the Defiant cut up Worf's ship in the mirror universe, or how a few Jem'Hadar fighters destroyed a Galaxy-class starship.

 

[Anwar]

It's fairly easy to destroy something when you ram it and you have an anti-matter core that explodes on destruction.

 

[RoJoHen]

I was generally annoyed that VOY introduced different kinds of ships at all.

FC introduced the Sphere only because it needed to give the Queen a means of surviving. If they hadn't invented the Queen character, that Sphere probably would not have existed.

Having so many different kinds of ships really goes against everything we knew about the Borg at the time. Why would the Borg need tactical ships? Probe ships? The very nature of the Borg assumes that one type of ship should be able to accomplish all of its goals.

 

[Anwar]

TNG already showed us that there were Borg Probe and Scout ships, and the vessel from "Descent".

Why need "Tactical" ships? For species that can actually fight back and the Borg can't just easily adapt to. They'd have to exist or the Borg would rule the DQ completely by the TNG era.

 

[RoJoHen]

TNG already showed us that there were Borg Probe and Scout ships, and the vessel from "Descent".

Why need "Tactical" ships? For species that can actually fight back and the Borg can't just easily adapt to. They'd have to exist or the Borg would rule the DQ completely by the TNG era.

I guess I just don't get why they wouldn't make ALL of their ships tactical ships. Why have ships that are intentionally weaker than other ships? It just doesn't seem like something the Borg would do.

As for that ship in "Descent," I was never convinced that was originally a Borg ship. Seems more like something Lore stole from someone else.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I wondered if the Tactical cube (a normal cube with huge plates of armour) was a response to the Borg getting whupped by Species 8472.

The Borg ship from "Descent" re-appears very briefly on a display screen as part of the Borg's plan against Species 8472 in "Scorpion" part 2. I think (it's been ages, I could be misremembering) they say it's a mine layer or something.

 

[Anwar]

I guess I just don't get why they wouldn't make ALL of their ships tactical ships. Why have ships that are intentionally weaker than other ships? It just doesn't seem like something the Borg would do.

Because the Borg don't have unlimited resources and numbers? It probably takes a lot to build one of those Assimilation Cubes, and if a species has enough numbers or advanced enough tech to fight the Borg off then it makes sense to send in something to weaken them first or distract them while an Assimilation Cube attacks their world.

As for that ship in "Descent," I was never convinced that was originally a Borg ship. Seems more like something Lore stole from someone else.

It was far too powerful for it to have been a normal vessel stolen from someone, and it makes sense that if Hugh's individuality had spread to his group their ship would've been incapacitated.

Of course the Ent-D was able to destroy THAT ship better than VOY handled their Borg battles and no one cared or said it ruined the Borg, but that's the unfairness series to series you get.

 

[RoJoHen]

I guess I just don't get why they wouldn't make ALL of their ships tactical ships. Why have ships that are intentionally weaker than other ships? It just doesn't seem like something the Borg would do.

Because the Borg don't have unlimited resources and numbers? It probably takes a lot to build one of those Assimilation Cubes, and if a species has enough numbers or advanced enough tech to fight the Borg off then it makes sense to send in something to weaken them first or distract them while an Assimilation Cube attacks their world.

I really think you're missing my point. The Borg, as introduced in TNG, have ships that are crazy powerful already. One single Borg cube managed to break past all of the Federation's defenses. If it hadn't been for Locutus being tricked into making the cube self-destruct, Earth would have been toast. They had no need for "tactical" ships. One regular Borg ship took care of the job just fine.

Until Species 8472 arrived, FROM ANOTHER DIMENSION, the Borg had absolutely no problems assimilating anybody with their regular Cubes.

Also, the nature of Borg technology and society (as it was until VOY decided to invent all this other crap) was redundant. Borg Cubes had no power core. They had no primary defensive grid. Nothing about a Cube stands out, and every drone in the Collective is as unremarkable as the next. It wouldn't make sense, given the Borg's mindset, to have different classes of ship. Every Borg ship would be identical and be able to accomplish the exact same goals.

Now, I realize VOY changed the rules and made the Borg society a much different animal, but I'm arguing from the perspective of how the Borg were originally conceived. I mean, the Borg in "Scorpion" are still pretty much the same as they were in "Q, Who?" and "BOBW." It wasn't until later that all these changes were introduced.

As for that ship in "Descent," I was never convinced that was originally a Borg ship. Seems more like something Lore stole from someone else.

It was far too powerful for it to have been a normal vessel stolen from someone, and it makes sense that if Hugh's individuality had spread to his group their ship would've been incapacitated.

Of course the Ent-D was able to destroy THAT ship better than VOY handled their Borg battles and no one cared or said it ruined the Borg, but that's the unfairness series to series you get.

I maintain my position. Maybe Lore and Hugh stole it, and then they upgraded it with Borg technology. I just don't believe it was originally of Borg design.