Did anyone else have a problem with Equinox, part two?

[froot]

Simple answer, it was Janeways monthly 'special lady time'.

Forgive me, for I have sinned and bumped this thread. But ARE YOU SERIOUS

So, I work in video game QA, and we frequently have younger folks coming in on the summers each season. Anyways, a young man who I can only describe as a "bro" was severely annoying a female with a somewhat prickly disposition over the course of several weeks. One day, the woman snapped and lightly beaned the fellow with the backing of a Wii Remote (this is the sort of thing that could only occur in game QA). Granted, not a good thing to do. But the fellow spent the next hour grousing at the top of his lungs about how the "bitch" was "CLEARLY ON HER PERIOD" and turning to me and asking me if I thought she was on her period.

Finally, the other females in the room had heard quite enough and that was that. I don't like to sit around and wave that tired old sexism flag, but damn. I take equal issue with those stupid keychains and shirts about PMS because looking at them lowers my IQ. I make "silly woman" jokes all the time, but entirely on a joke level. But when people use PMS even partly honestly as an argument for a real person or fictional person it just drives me batty. I guess a woman can't be upset unless she's on her period? lolwhat? Perhaps she's just, you know, mad. Because she's human. Maybe something bad happened. Bad disposition. Constipation. Jerk. But, no, no, the silly woman is just suffering from PMS and can't control herself because she's too stupid.

Oh my goodness, I'm sorry for the rant but...but wow.

On topic!

Of course people should have problems with Equinox II. What Janeway was becoming throughout the episode was bad news, and the episode was written so the viewer would slowly back up and realize the hero was starting to become a bit like the villain. I recall watching this episode rather dispassionately on its original broadcast and was like "Oh, I get it, she almost became like Ransom but his death helped her find herself again. Okay."

She was supposed to be wrong, despite what someone said about "never having the woman be wrong" malarkey. Good. Glad to see a few chinks in the armor. Chakotay and Tuvok should have teamed up and held her back - in a way, Chakotay did. She may not have gone so far as to commit murder (I honestly doubt it) but Chakotay did the right thing in stilling her hand all the same.

She was not moping at the end of the episode because she was sunshine and flowers about what she almost became. She was probably scared of herself. Thankfully, she was able to pull back from the brink - something else the episode tried to get across. Rudy bounded over that brink and didn't look back until he was about to die in his silly little "sacrifice." Janeway did not.

Heck, Chakotay was glaring daggers at her in that final scene with the plaque, even though they were trying to come together and play nice. (that's also the scene that made me a J/Cer initially... )

A follow-up would have been great, [insert some tired comment/argument about the nature of self-contained episodes], but alas.

 

[CobraCommander]

I believe that had Chakotay relieved her it would have been an act of mutiny. The person with the power and legitimate authority would be the Chief Medical Officer. Although the Equinox's EMH wouldn't have minded.

In regards to her dealings with the Equinox, she became obsessed with them. If I recall correctly (Part 1), the Equinox crew fled because Janeway was going to punish the crew. Captain Ransom wasn't going to let his people end up in the stockade. Had he had some assurances that his crew would be granted amnesty until they reach Earth, he would have surrendered. On the flip, he should have informed Janeway of what he had done since her ship was now in danger. Lastly, his crew (even though they were willing participants) were following his orders. The ultimate responsibility of a crew's conduct on a starship rests on the hands of the commanding officer. Lastly, his crew needing some serious psychiatric help for having endured seven years of hell (minus a reset switch).

I realize this episode was supposed to show the more grittier sides of Janeway. If failed because it showed her as being disconnected from her crew and Chakotay being a "token Maquis" in her eyes. It was also another "We have to save our precious Seven" episode. Cobra

 

[Guy Gardener]

Why didn't the Equinox EMH relieve her of duty?

As plans go, it's a little better than telling idiots how to shoot at the shit you're standing on better. You would think that removing his ethical subroutines would have dissolved any martyr complex the holobloke had unless they replaced that programming with amended ethical subroutines that allowed for loyalty to his ship with out loyalty to decency.

Go get Chuckles and then march onto the bridge forcing the issue that she was bat shit.

THAT EMH had the opposite of loyalty to the woman.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

If I recall correctly (Part 1), the Equinox crew fled because Janeway was going to punish the crew

Nope.

The following exchange occurred before Janeway even began to suspect something wasn't right on the Equinox.

[Equinox Bridge]

BURKE: Once we take their field generator we'll part company.
GILMORE: What happens to Voyager?
BURKE: They have weapons, shields, a full crew. They'll survive.
LESSING: Maybe we should abandon ship. Try to forget everything that's happened here.
RANSOM: A shower and a hot meal. I guess that's all it takes for some of us to forget what's at stake here. We're going home, We can't let Voyager stop us now, not when we're this close. Now we're proceeding as planned. Are there any other objections? I need each and every one of you to give me your very best, as you always have. Max.
BURKE: This won't be easy. The generator is located on deck eleven, next to the warp plasma manifold. We can't get a clean lock without boosting the signal. Marla, I need you to set aside your claustrophobia and crawl through the access port, set up the transport enhancers.
GILMORE: Understood.
BURKE: We'll have to take the internal sensors in that section offline. Noah, you're elected.
LESSING: You can count on me, sir.
BURKE: I'll disengage the power couplings from Engineering.
RANSOM: You'll all have time for one last shower. Make the most of it.


This next conversation occurred on Voyager, just before Janeway revealed her knowledge of the evil Equinox's crew was committing in the name of getting home with "all alacrity."

BURKE: I'm going to miss this (Voyager) ship.
RANSOM: Once we get back to Earth, there'll be plenty of women. Status?
BURKE: Ready on all fronts. The transport enhancers are in place and Noah's created a subroutine to mask Voyager's internal sensors.
RANSOM: Power couplings?
BURKE: Bypass controls have been routed to our Bridge. All you need to do is say energise.
RANSOM: Janeway wants to bring on the security grid at nineteen hundred hours. We'll have to act before then. Tell the others to be prepared to. Max, the transporter room's not far from here. Keep moving.
TUVOK (to Ransom) Captain Janeway wishes to speak with you.

Ransom and his crew not only killed methodically and in cold blood 38? aliens in an attempt to get home, they tried to kill 140 or so humanoids that called Voyager home when they stole Voyager's field generator which was supplementing her protection against those aliens intent on revenge.

As far as "saving our precious Seven", I have to disagree on that point too. Janeway wasn't "about" saving Seven, she was ALL about revenging herself upon the Equinox for their betrayal of their Starfleet oaths (and of Janeway) as blindly as the Ankari were intent on revenge for the murder of their fellow beings.

Considering how this season began, with Janeway in a depression over stranding her ship in the DQ because she tried to save a species, to find a fellow (even decorated) Captain killing wantonly to get his ship home more quickly was anathema to her.

Simply put, the woman finally snapped.

Did I like that she did?

Nope.

But I can't really fault her either.

 

[froot]

Simply put, the woman finally snapped.

Did I like that she did?

Nope.

But I can't really fault her either.

Yeah, Equinox was the logical follow-up to Night (I honestly thought this was on purpose, since Night was the first episode of the season.) She was getting a little bristly in 11:59, too.

It's a weird episode if you like the character, because you want to take her side, and you understand where she's coming from, but when she's finally on the brink, you aren't really supposed to be taking her side anymore. The Equinox crew were bad news bears. But she was on the road to becoming that way herself - her usual sense of justice was twisted.

J/7ers might disagree, but I could have done without Seven being captured, as well. She wasn't a good parallel for Lessing - someone actually in Starfleet would have been more appropriate. Tom, maybe? He was always very loyal.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

The problem was they needed an engineering whiz on the Equinox to be captured... and they needed B'Elanna on Voyager to have that heartfelt talk via the com channel with Max when he stole her generator.

I'm FAR from being a J/7er.. but her being on the Equinox did provide one of my fav exchanges...

SEVEN: State your intentions.
RANSOM: You know, once we get our enhanced warp drive back online we'll be on our way home, but it'll still take months to get there. You can spend that time in the brig, or you can become part of this crew. I'd prefer the latter.
SEVEN: I'd prefer the brig.
RANSOM: You know, Janeway's not the only Captain who can help you explore your humanity.
SEVEN: You would be an inferior role model.



(realizing Seven doesn't know Janeway's going around the bend again.)


Season 5 was difficult all around. If I were to compare it with the "new" series that I've become invested in this fall, its like season 3 of Xena. Lots of angst and hurt to go around for months on end.

I frequently look at season 5 as Voyager's "dark night of the soul"... Something they all had to go through singly, to emerge whole "on the other side".

In fact I don't consider season 5 to be "over" until "Barge of the Dead" Season 6's 2nd ep. That was when the hatchet was finally buried between Janeway and B'Elanna, and it WASN"T in Kathryn's back!

 

[froot]

^ Huh, you're right. Pretty much each episode in 5 is an angst-ridden character piece. I usually identify Season 5 with Jim Wright's description - "Year of the Undershirt." But I think yours fits better.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

^ Huh, you're right. Pretty much each episode in 5 is an angst-ridden character piece. I usually identify Season 5 with Jim Wright's description - "Year of the Undershirt." But I think yours fits better.

Yowl! I don't remember that, then again I think I just discovered him at the end of season 5.

I think Jim's fanfic about Janeway being a BorgQueen was better than the one Pocket Books gave us.

He really WAS hooked on the Captain, wasn't he.

 

[froot]

^ Yeah, among other things about that darn book, I thought Before Dishonor was such a rip-off of Best of Both Girls! When I first saw the summary for the book online, I remember thinking "Wow, that sounds like a bad version of Jim's story." And, anyway, Jim's came first. By like... 10 years.

He did love his redheads.

I actually think Equinox (of all things) was the first of his reviews I read, but I've since read them all about 383892423479.38 times.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

^

He did love his redheads.

I actually think Equinox (of all things) was the first of his reviews I read, but I've since read them all about 383892423479.38 times.

.38????

And I thought I was bad.

 

[vas2009]

^^^^ What?!!! I wanna read it!

 

[vas2009]

Also... It isn't unlike Janeway to take crazy risks to save her crew especially 7.

If the Equinox used their super duper warp drive Voyager would not have been able to catch up with them.

It was no secret she wanted Ransom bound and beaten and that just may have been what clouded her jugement because I do agree she was out-of-line and T'd off.
I mostly feel that way because it is unlike Janeway to dismiss the idea of trying further to communicate with the creatures, usually she is all over that... However they did not have a lot of time.

However, is it any more crazy then beaming on to a Borg vessel and confronting the Queen just to save our precious Seven?

 

[Guy Gardener]

I think you need a new prescription for your rose coloured glasses or your sarcasm gland is on 'roids.

 

[vas2009]

^^^ Maybe... but I am not sure what you are getting at. There wasn't any sarcasim (I know I am usually guilty of it). Perhaps it seems I am trying to justify her actions, but like I said, I agree she was out-of-line... I really was just saying somethings I think no one else says, From what I have read... and these are things I often think in regards to this topic.

Although I will lovingly proclaim with absolutly no hard evidence, Janeway does no wrong... *slight sarcasim

 

[CaptJamesScott]

I think the moral of Voyager has always been that Janeway is a megalomaniac. Her attitude is aristocratic, arrogant, not to mention her self-righteous attitude. She's also a hypocrite. Several occasions, she lauds the Prime Directive, but others she directly violates it. For example, in the episode "The Swarm", she says she doesn't care that the Swarm doesn't want people in their space, even though Tuvok correctly informs her that it's against Starfleet regulations and the Prime Directive.

I like the show, but Janeway is easily the most annoying character in Trekdom.

 

[vas2009]

I think the moral of Voyager has always been that Janeway is a megalomaniac. Her attitude is aristocratic, arrogant, not to mention her self-righteous attitude. She's also a hypocrite. Several occasions, she lauds the Prime Directive, but others she directly violates it. For example, in the episode "The Swarm", she says she doesn't care that the Swarm doesn't want people in their space, even though Tuvok correctly informs her that it's against Starfleet regulations and the Prime Directive.

I like the show, but Janeway is easily the most annoying character in Trekdom.

Those are some harsh OPINIONS, surely there is one thing the old bitch has going for her.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If they met up with space gods and the ship got challenged to a (space)tennis match for their souls, well then Janeway is our girl.

Captain Jimmy is trying to say everything in his mind in his first post, but he's mostly right despite the gruff execution of his argument.

Swarm is a magnificent example. Chakotay is bumbling with the universal translator trying to reach an accord, Janeway tells him to stop wasting his time and he's pissing her talking about opening a peaceful dialogue, and then she murders 10's of thousands of Swarmies who were only defending their boarders form bastard invaders who didn't understand that "fuck off" really means "fuck off OR ELSE".

OI also liked how on the Basics planet Janeway was sharpening spears to remove the indigenous stone age culture because the planet wasn't big enough for Kathy and anyone that irked her, before Chuckles rescued a princess from some lava flow and suddenly the local savages are willing to tolerate Janeway if she's with Chakotay.

Janeway had some very dark moments which has you wonder exactly how irrationally violent she's pretending she isn't most of the time when she's faking an air of reasonability.

 

[froot]

I think the moral of Voyager has always been that Janeway is a megalomaniac.

That was the moral of the whole show? What about that whole "journey" thing? Family? Home?

I must have been watching a different show.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I honestly believe I did watch a dfferent show when I read some of the more hardline gushers.

7 years in and she had crew that hadn't been on an away mission (other than Basics II.) and 7 years in and she hadn't promoted Harry Kim who worked his ass off trying to get her attention and please her.

If it was about the journey, then why did Admiral Janeway annihilate 2/3rds of the trip home? Completely changing Miral Paris' upbringing and exterminating all the other children that had been destined to be born on Voyager in the course of the next 16 years? Murdering babies is not cool.

Janeway said they were a family all the time but she also said that sh had to distance herself from her crew all the time. It really depends on who was writing if she was kind or cold, but it's all canon which makes her both unreliably saintly and unreliably vicious.

 

[AuntKate]

I think the moral of Voyager has always been that Janeway is a megalomaniac. Her attitude is aristocratic, arrogant, not to mention her self-righteous attitude. She's also a hypocrite. Several occasions, she lauds the Prime Directive, but others she directly violates it. For example, in the episode "The Swarm", she says she doesn't care that the Swarm doesn't want people in their space, even though Tuvok correctly informs her that it's against Starfleet regulations and the Prime Directive.

I like the show, but Janeway is easily the most annoying character in Trekdom.

Know what? This particular argument about the Swarm is just a bit off IMHO. Why? Well, there are nations on Earth that proclaim that their territorial waters extend a hundred miles out (or farther) and warn other navies to keep out. So what? Does that mean that they have the right to do that? Or that other nations have to respect it? Maybe such a proclamation was something that in the AQ might be more easily respected, but why go weeks and months out of your way when all you intend to do is go through?

Plus, remember this--Voyager would have made it fine and dandy, with no damage and without detection, except that Janeway stopped to help another ship that, like Voyager, had tried to cross the Swarm's "territory" without permission.

Before we get all high and mighty about Janeway breaking the Prime Directive to cross the Swarm's space, we might stop and wonder just why the Swarm would care? Is it possible that they use it as a "speed trap"?

As for Janeway's "aristocratic, arrogant, not to mention her self-righteous attitude"? Well, I'm thinking that any captain who performs the dying swan for her crew would not fit that description too well.