Rank of Doctor

[PsychoPere]

[...] imagine Counselor Troi commanding the Enterprise even though Data is the more capable in a crisis situation.

By the end of TNG, that seemed to be inexplicably a possibility. After passing her "Bridge Officer Examination," Troi was promoted from Lieutenant Commander to Commander, while Data - who had been out of the Academy for 25 years, compared to Troi's 11 years, and was Chief Science Officer, Chief of Operations, and Second Officer of the Enterprise-D - was still only a Lieutenant Commander. Yet was Troi really qualified to be in command of the ship compared to Data's qualifications and experience? I'd think not, but if a crisis situation arose wherein Troi was the ranking officer on the bridge, command would have fallen to her by default even if the ship's Second Officer was there too!

After Janeway died in Before and After "someone" awarded Chakotay four Pips to demonstrate that his Captaincy was real...

This was odd, too. While Chakotay could certainly be captain (position), there was no one of sufficient standing available to promote him to Captain (rank). The death of one's captain does not automatically promote the First Officer to Captain (rank); the First Officer (or highest ranked remaining officer) would only assume the position of captain. Only an officer of flag rank would be able to promote another officer to Captain (rank). If an Admiral had not promoted Chakotay to Captain, then Chakotay would have been guilty of illegally assuming a rank that was not his. Of course, looking at Memory Alpha, it appears that the timeline in "Before and After" in which Chakotay was Captain of Voyager was set in the year 2379, which would be 3 years after Project Pathfinder established contact with Voyager in the proper timeline, so it's certainly possible that Chakotay was promoted to Captain via subspace orders from Starfleet if Pathfinder was successful in that alternate timeline as well.

Was Chakotay the XO because he was the leader of the Maquis or was Chakotay the XO because of his awarded hypothetical and imaginary rank? What if their was a power struggle inside the Maquis that by their traditions Chakotay fell from Grace? Would he accordingly lose his position of if he was no longer representative of the ruling body of the Maquis?

Somehow I doubt that Janeway would've accepted any other Maquis - except perhaps B'Elanna - as First Officer, regardless of any internal power struggle within the Maquis onboard Voyager. She probably wouldn't have tolerated any internal Maquis political struggle, anyways, since she expected the Maquis to act as Starfleet once she issues their provisional ranks.

 

[Chaos Descending]

Doctor isn't a rank, it's a medical degree. :P

Actually - that's wrong too. Doctor is a PhD, not a medical degree. In medicine, medical practitioners use the term doctor as a courtesy title only - most of them a not doctors (unless they also have a PhD). Same as vets, dentists, chiropractors and similar professions that have "adopted" the use of the academic title doctor.

That's some semantic wrangling there that is also not quite true, but that's a debate for another place. Suffice to say that doctor most certainly is a medical degree, but not all doctors are medical doctors.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Provisional rank means that they provisionally accept her orders.

If she failed to accept their "new leader" then the Maquis would have had cause to have gone on strike, which would have forced Janeway to restrict/remove their liberty (threaten a marooning) and the ship would grind to a halt because Voyager was dangerously understaffed.

The Maquis had her by the short and curlies.

 

[milo bloom]

CMO is a transitory rank held by the Boss Doctor however.

It's somewhat like what Potter gave Hawkeye to boss around Charles in the Operating theatre because his rank did not reflect his skill as a meatball surgeon.

Minor tangent, pretty sure it was Blake that made Hawkeye Chief Surgeon because Frank was a major and the camp XO, but Hawkeye was the superior surgeon. Charles was certainly a far better surgeon than Frank, but was an asshat, so he was also a major and the camp XO but still reported to Hawkeye in the OR.

This sorta applies to Trek in that McCoy, Crusher, Pulaski all ranks of Lt Commander and Commander, but were not actually in the chain of command. The situation in "Disaster" was a unique one in that the regular officer of the deck had been killed, so then you needed a command level officer to take over.
If Worf had been there, even as a Lieutenant, he would have taken command, even over Troi, as I'm fairly certain he was in the chain of command as a line officer.


I do agree the rank thing on Voyager was a constant source of annoyance. Both the changing ranks of Tuvok and Paris, and the lack of rank for the Doctor and the lack of promotion for Harry.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The chain of command covers just about every one.

If Worf could have taken command over Dee, then Ro could have as well.

Deanna only had command because she had first option.

She could have passed it on.

Maybe it wasn't explained to her that she could have given command away to O'Brien or Ro? (Maybe O'Brien preferred Dee over Ro?) But she felt that she had to stay in command for one reason or another which might have been as petty as that Ro had shagged Riker in Conundrum after the entire crew had been made amnesiacs... Oh? Disaster happened first? Well, it was obvious that Ro was sniffing around in Dee's sand box well before she started making castles.

 

[PsychoPere]

Provisional rank means that they provisionally accept her orders.
If she failed to accept their "new leader" then the Maquis would have had cause to have gone on strike, which would have forced Janeway to restrict/remove their liberty (threaten a marooning) and the ship would grind to a halt because Voyager was dangerously understaffed.
The Maquis had her by the short and curlies.

Technically, "provisional rank" mean "temporary rank," but your point is true that that didn't necessarily mean the Maquis would always choose to follow Janeway's orders. However, what other choice did they really have? Their ship was destroyed, so they were relying on Voyager and its crew to get home. While some of the Maquis were certainly useful (perhaps even necessary), I doubt that the majority of the Maquis would've been absolutely essential to rounding out Voyager's vacant-through-attrition purposes.

If Worf had been there, even as a Lieutenant, he would have taken command, even over Troi, as I'm fairly certain he was in the chain of command as a line officer.

I'm not sure about that. Worf was the Enterprise-D's third officer but he was in the Operations Division, rather than Command Division, so I think he would've been obligated to follow the orders of the ranking officer, even if that officer was in the Sciences Division (even though Worf, as Tactical Officer & Chief of Security would certainly have been a more logical choice than a Lt Cmndr Counselor). I don't even think a Command Division Lt Worf would've technically been in command over Lt Cmndr Troi, simply virtue of the fact that she outranked him regardless of position. If it had been Worf on the bridge instead of Troi, then naturally Worf would've taken command over Ro and O'Brien, even though Ro still would've been the only Command Division officer on the bridge.

As another example: Cmndr Troi was in command of the bridge while the Enterprise-E traveled to the Briar Patch, yet Lt Cmndr Data was Second Officer of the ship.

The chain of command covers just about every one.
If Worf could have taken command over Dee, then Ro could have as well.
Deanna only had command because she had first option.
She could have passed it on.

No, Troi was in command because there were only two officers on the bridge at the time: herself (Lt Cmndr) and Ro (Ensign). O'Brien explained that, as ranking officer, command fell to Troi.

 

[Anwar]

I do agree the rank thing on Voyager was a constant source of annoyance. Both the changing ranks of Tuvok and Paris, and the lack of rank for the Doctor and the lack of promotion for Harry.

Well, the Doc was originally just meant to be a temporary thing. Would Starfleet really think about putting a program from the Ship's computer potentially in the chain of command for the vessel?

As for the others, well they were separated from Fleet Command so what would the point of promotions be? I mean, what would stop Janeway from making herself an Admiral if she felt like it?

 

[henbane]

Doctor isn't a rank, it's a medical degree. :P

Actually - that's wrong too. Doctor is a PhD, not a medical degree. In medicine, medical practitioners use the term doctor as a courtesy title only - most of them a not doctors (unless they also have a PhD). Same as vets, dentists, chiropractors and similar professions that have "adopted" the use of the academic title doctor.

That's some semantic wrangling there that is also not quite true, but that's a debate for another place. Suffice to say that doctor most certainly is a medical degree, but not all doctors are medical doctors.

As a medical practitioner (MBBS) with a doctrate (PhD), (I prefer research to patients....lol) I can assure you that the use of the term doctor by the medical profession (and others such as vets, dentists, chiropractors) is a courtesy title only. They are not "doctors" according to the true definition of the title.

 

[Guy Gardener]

As for the others, well they were separated from Fleet Command so what would the point of promotions be? I mean, what would stop Janeway from making herself an Admiral if she felt like it?

The law.

Kathy can only promote any one as high as captain.

She can't even promote herself or some one to "Fleet captain" if they discovered another ship and started building a fleet.

However she can promote anyone to any provision rank she wants to because they're not real ranks. Janeway could have make herself a PROVISIONAL Admiral and wore a Provisional rank badge just like her Maquis Crew no matter how awfully her Starfleet crew swore under their breath that she was stealing and cheating.

Though I've often wished that the crew had pursued a civilian government to work alongside and in some cases on top of Janeways authority especially if the guy working in waste reclamation is going to be sifting shit for the next 60 years might want to wonder why no one else gets to relieve his shitty job now and then? That is the ideals upon which the Maquis were founded on right? Personal determination?

Compared tot he tedium of some of the other jobs on that ship for the lower decks folkes who had been in Starfleet for possibly decades already, regulating this and maintaining that, watching a bouncing ball on a screen as a visual depiction of danger or saftey... Harry kim was Royalty.

And PsychoPere, I was suggestign that once it had been established that Dee was in command, that she could have bowed out at any point and let Ro take over if she accepted that was not the time to be horsing about when things were blowing up.... Ro's contempt must have been painful to be standing next to, so it's no wonder Dee didn't satisfy this very very tall women who seemed to have no respect of confidence in her.

Every third thought in that bouncy little betazoids head during the troi administration on the Enterprise must have been "Fuck you Ro!"

It's like Dee was Archie and Ro was Reggie and some thign had happened to the band.

 

[PsychoPere]

Kathy can only promote any one as high as captain.

No, you can't promote someone to the same rank you have, only to the rank immediately subordinate to yours.

However she can promote anyone to any provision rank she wants to because they're not real ranks. Janeway could have make herself a PROVISIONAL Admiral and wore a Provisional rank badge just like her Maquis Crew [...]

No, provisional ranks are real ranks; they're simply temporary until recognized by the issuing officer's central authority. Janeway could not have issued herself a provisional rank of Admiral because she cannot promote herself, nor could she have issued a provisional rank of Admiral to anyone else because that rank was superior to her own.

And PsychoPere, I was suggestign that once it had been established that Dee was in command, that she could have bowed out at any point and let Ro take over if she accepted that was not the time to be horsing about when things were blowing up....

Troi could not have turned over command to Ro without violating the entire chain of command, regardless of whether or not it was a crisis situation. There was at least one other Ensign still alive (I watched the episode not that long ago while doing a series rewatch); for Troi to have handed command over to Ensign Ro, she would've undermined the entire hierarchy that Starfleet is based on in front of not only Ensign Ro (who would likely have never respected her again) but two other subordinates as well. As the situation unfolded, O'Brien and Ro were essentially in charge anyways since Troi followed most of their suggestions, but she still had to be the one to issue the orders.

For what it's worth, Lt(jg) Monroe initially took charge until being killed by an explosion from the Conn station because she had been left in command of the bridge. If Monroe had lived, Troi would not have been able to take command.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I believe in field commissions. They're real.

But I have always assumed that these provisional rank badges which Janeway handed out where bullshit.

There's a wiki page on Brevet ranks so Provisional ranks used to be real but it was more to do with honours and duty assignments 200 years ago... And how they are describing provisional rank, it's more about how you don't get a pay bump to go along with your promotion more so than you are given fake regalia so that every one knows that you are not a real officer.

I can't believe they never bothered to tell us about the badges and if Janeway invented them for their unique case or she was following some sort of precedent?

...

In DS9 a (dying) Captain promoted a third year cadet to Captain who had enough balls on him to forget he was really still only a third year cadet with illusions of grandeur when he met an Ensign who submitted to the cadets command structure.

In VOY Futures End Ensign Kim had Command of Voyager for a fair chunk of both episodes despite that Lieutenant B'Elanna Torress was by his side the whole time as his Yes Woman.

Giving command away is simple. Picard does it every time he leaves the bridge. Janeway too. But that is to say he gives away command of the bridge not the entire ship, and since they didn't know if Picard was dead, they were not wondering who had command of the ship, but command of the bridge and Honestly by your rules here, Munroe could not have taken or received or been in command of the Bridge while Troi was there being all superior in command in the background.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Phlox was a civilian on Enterprise.

On the NX-01, yes, but he is a veteran. He was a medic in the Denobulan military at one time ("Cease Fire").

 

[PsychoPere]

In DS9 a (dying) Captain promoted a third year cadet to Captain [...]

I haven't seen the episode (I'm assuming you're referring to "Valiant") but the Captain would technically have only been able to promote the cadet as high as Commander and position of captain, rather than rank of Captain.

In VOY Futures End Ensign Kim had Command of Voyager for a fair chunk of both episodes despite that Lieutenant B'Elanna Torress was by his side the whole time as his Yes Woman.

I haven't seen that episode either, so my question would be this: Was Kim left in command of the bridge when a higher-ranked officer left the bridge? If so, then it was correct that he was still in command even when Torres was on the bridge (see TNG "The Arsenal of Freedom").

Giving command away is simple. Picard does it every time he leaves the bridge. Janeway too. But that is to say he gives away command of the bridge not the entire ship, and since they didn't know if Picard was dead, they were not wondering who had command of the ship, but command of the bridge and Honestly by your rules here, Munroe could not have taken or received or been in command of the Bridge while Troi was there being all superior in command in the background.

You've highlighted the difference already. When someone is placed in command of the bridge, it is when the normal officer in charge is vacating the bridge and therefore is unavailable to issue orders to the bridge crew. In "Disaster," Monroe was in command of the bridge after Picard left; Troi was originally on the bridge only to deliver the science fair winners to Picard for their tour of the ship. Once Monroe was killed, command fell to Troi as senior officer present.

Episode transcript:

RO
We need to start emergency procedures. Who's the duty officer?

O'BRIEN
Lieutenant Monroe was in command, but he's dead.

There is a beat as O'Brien realizes what that means. There hadn't been a chance to consider this question before now.

O'BRIEN
(continuing)
I believe Counselor Troi is the senior officer on the bridge.

RO
Counselor Troi?

O'BRIEN
She carries the rank of Lieutenant Commander.

Once Monroe was dead, there were three officers (Lt Cmndr Troi, Ensign Mandel, and Ensign Ro) and one enlisted officer (CPO O'Brien) on the bridge. For Troi to have relinquished command of the bridge once command fell to her, she would've needed to leave the bridge, which wasn't an option at that point.

 

[Guy Gardener]

That's a tit-tickling technicality which could have been circumnavigated by Dee just by exiting the bridge into the Captain's ready room for five seconds and then returning to the bridge.

But you really should see Futures End.

Ed Bagley JR as the baddie and Sarah Silverman as the Love interest for Tom. It's one of the least shittiest episodes because it's complete fanwank... And if you keep your eyes peeled, you see Khan's Sleeper Ship in the corner of one scene for about 12 frames.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ yep, the Botany Bay shows up as a model on Rain Robinson's desk. It even has the booster rockets used to launch the ship into orbit, a detail which we never saw in TOS.

And speaking of tit-tickling technicalities: That episode transcript of "Disaster" got Monroe's gender wrong in some places, but not others... (it quotes O'Brien as saying "...but he's dead", which is wrong, as Monroe was a woman; but in earlier scenes, described Monroe struggling to get to HER feet)

 

[Shatnertage]

Actually - that's wrong too. Doctor is a PhD, not a medical degree. In medicine, medical practitioners use the term doctor as a courtesy title only - most of them a not doctors (unless they also have a PhD). Same as vets, dentists, chiropractors and similar professions that have "adopted" the use of the academic title doctor.

That's some semantic wrangling there that is also not quite true, but that's a debate for another place. Suffice to say that doctor most certainly is a medical degree, but not all doctors are medical doctors.

As a medical practitioner (MBBS) with a doctrate (PhD), (I prefer research to patients....lol) I can assure you that the use of the term doctor by the medical profession (and others such as vets, dentists, chiropractors) is a courtesy title only. They are not "doctors" according to the true definition of the title.

So M.D. doesn't mean "Doctor of Medicine" (or some variant of it)?

FWIW, the New York Times and many other publications will only identify someone as "Dr. Suchandsuch" if they have a medical degree.

 

[Chaos Descending]

As soon as he said he has a MBBS I realized why we are at odds. It comes down to the difference between the British system and the American system. MBBS means Bachelor of Medicine Bachelor of Surgery. That's the general Medical Degree given in Commonwealth nations. They don't consider those medical degrees to be "doctorate" level.

In the United States the general medical degree is either "M.D." which means Medicinae Doctor, or "D.O." which means Doctor of Osteopathy. The US academic system DOES consider these to be doctorate level degrees.

The US used to use the British system up until over a hundred years ago.

So his comments are correct in the UK, Australia, etc. or the US in the Nineteenth Century. My comments are correct in the US for the bulk of the 20th Century and the 21st Century.

EDIT:
Let me clarify that I do not intend to suggest that an MBBS is somehow inferior to an MD or a DO. Far from it. They are equal. The difference is that the UK academic community does not consider them "doctor level" while the American academic community does.

 

[Shatnertage]

OK, that makes sense. I've heard a stray American Ph.D. claim this (usually with a degree in a not-so-rigorous discipline), so I'm a little on guard about this.

 

[PsychoPere]

And speaking of tit-tickling technicalities: That episode transcript of "Disaster" got Monroe's gender wrong in some places, but not others... (it quotes O'Brien as saying "...but he's dead", which is wrong, as Monroe was a woman; but in earlier scenes, described Monroe struggling to get to HER feet)

According to the Memory Alpha entry on "Disaster," that error was in the original script.

 

[henbane]

As soon as he said he has a MBBS I realized why we are at odds. It comes down to the difference between the British system and the American system. MBBS means Bachelor of Medicine Bachelor of Surgery. That's the general Medical Degree given in Commonwealth nations. They don't consider those medical degrees to be "doctorate" level.

In the United States the general medical degree is either "M.D." which means Medicinae Doctor, or "D.O." which means Doctor of Osteopathy. The US academic system DOES consider these to be doctorate level degrees.

The US used to use the British system up until over a hundred years ago.

So his comments are correct in the UK, Australia, etc. or the US in the Nineteenth Century. My comments are correct in the US for the bulk of the 20th Century and the 21st Century.

EDIT:
Let me clarify that I do not intend to suggest that an MBBS is somehow inferior to an MD or a DO. Far from it. They are equal. The difference is that the UK academic community does not consider them "doctor level" while the American academic community does.

Correct - but you have a few things wrong....I'm a she (not a he) and Australian, not British. Never call an Aussie a Pom!!!

MBBS is actually 2 degrees (not one) - Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery. This is why, academically it can't be regarded as equivalent to "doctor" or a doctorate in anyway, just like any other double degree (eg. law/arts, science/arts etc).

Also, MD and other such "doctor degrees" are not considered equivalent to a PhD (or doctorate, doctor of philosophy) for a very simple reason. Being awarded a doctorate, by it's basic definition, signifies that the holder has made a significant original (new) contribution to the existing body of knowledge by independent research. Clearly, completing 1,2 or even 6 Bachelor degrees doesn't fulfil this requirement.

As you quite correctly pointed out, an MD is the equivalent of MBBS and as MD candidates do not undertake significant independent research projects, an MD cannot be regarded as the equivalent of a PhD, hence the title doctor cannot be conferred on these grounds.

The US system also differs from the UK system in other respects too when it comes to adopting academic titles eg. anyone teaching in a university in the US can use the title professor. In the US/UK/Europe (and most other countries too), professor is a senior academic appointment, usually confined to one professor per disciple eg Professor of Microbiology.