"I like the new movie better..."

[Devon]

Too much of JJ Trek simply screamed "Look at what WE changed!" That's why a lot of fans were put off in whole or in part...too much "change for change's sake".

Didn't matter, since 9 times the amount of fans enjoyed it.

 

[Devon]

Why can't they make a film that pleases BOTH fandoms? One of the best received films in the series (IV) did that quite well.

Done

View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
Excellent

695 63.53%
Above Average

205 18.74%
Average

81 7.40%
Below Average

39 3.56%
Poor

74 6.76%

Voters: 1094.

http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=90455

Note that while I don't expect the results to change significantly, that poll was found in the Trek XI+ forum ... an area where people who don't like the film are as likely to go. This introduces a selection bias. Even I hadn't seen it.

And what of TrekWeb's poll which had very similar results?

My point being is, Yes Orci & Kurtzman stated they were STAR TREK fans, yes the "complimentary" nod moments ( i.e.. tribbles, the slight reference to character dialogue(( I'm givin' her all she's got!!!!)) which technically he NEVER said). If they did there would have been a better thought put into a story EVERYONE would flock to see.

"Better thought" in regards to what non-subjective standard?

And you get your info where? I know

Correction: you believe.

if they would have done as I suggested, YES I would have gone multiple times myself to see it in the theater. Multiply that by how many more posters on here that think negative on this board alone.

So what?

And we see that your logic to thinking what you do is totally false.

What?

Why can't they make a film that pleases BOTH fandoms? One of the best received films in the series (IV) did that quite well.

Done

Again you put your own perception on "since this movie hit it big financially" (although it took a big loss from its budget)

It's "big loss" still made it more successful than most other Trek just on profits alone.

that this STAR TREK pleased BOTH sides. Which is wwwaaayyy far from the truth in itself.

That was a polling of forum members here, not box office data. Please read that part of the post again.

Also, why did you say that I "again" have a perception that its financial success means it pleases both sides? When have I have stated this before?

Actually, it's not silly to ask that they put a little more effort into their production.

Who are you to say that they didn't put sufficient effort into their production? Just because you don't agree with production or writing choices doesn't mean they didn't put enough effort into it, it just means that you had a different opinion. The implication that they didn't "put enough effort" into it is an attempt to downplay their contribution to justify why you feel the way you feel. It is no different than the train of thought of "You have a different opinion than me, therefore you are not as intelligent."

What's being ignored is that this Trek XI is actually amongst the most LIKED installments in the franchise.

Ad populum and basing it on a self-selected survey in a biased forum.

Not basing it on this alone. See above. So, yes, it is amongst the most liked installments.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

^The "top movie" polls I posted earlier say otherwise. Multiple mentions of non-JJ Trek and nary a mention for JJ Trek.

 

[Devon]

Link?

 

[Dukhat]

Too much of JJ Trek simply screamed "Look at what WE changed!" That's why a lot of fans were put off in whole or in part...too much "change for change's sake".

I love it when people make nebulous statements like this, as if they're in communication with the total amount of the Star Trek fanbase other than the relatively few fans who post on this site.

There is only one true "fact." And that is that Star Trek '09 was a huge commercial and financial success. So tell me, just who were the people that shelled out all that money to see it? Were they Star trek fans? JJ Abrams fans? Fans of action films in general who were not necessarily Star Trek fans? How could anyone possibly know this? Did someone interview each and every person who bought a ticket and asked them if they were a fan? Did someone interview them after the movie to find out if they liked or disliked it?

Let's face it. The only fans who were "put off in whole or in part"... are about ten people tops who post as such on the TrekBBS.

 

[Warped9]

Too much of JJ Trek simply screamed "Look at what WE changed!" That's why a lot of fans were put off in whole or in part...too much "change for change's sake".

I love it when people make nebulous statements like this, as if they're in communication with the total amount of the Star Trek fanbase other than the relatively few fans who post on this site.

That isn't what he said. He expressed what he perceived and there's nothing wrong with his viewpoint if that's how he saw it. He never claimed to speak for anyone but himself. And "a lot of fans" doesn't automatically mean "most" or "the majority." You can have a minority percentage of a given group and it can still be a lot of people. 100,000 is only 10% of 1,000,000 yet it's still a lot of people.

And he's right. A lot of people around here (for example) are critical of the film even if they aren't a majority.

 

[Potemkin_Prod]

Bad example, models in general are hardly considered childish. LEGO enthusiasts maybe.

Where LEGOs big in the 50's/60's? Are there currently 60 year old LEGO enthusiasts? If so, that works for me.

I know of one chap in particular in SC who illustrated fanzines for Orion Press who's rather elderly and yes loves Legos and Erector sets. Goes to what amounts to conventions for them, in fact.

What's being ignored is that this Trek XI is actually amongst the most LIKED installments in the franchise.

Ad populum and basing it on a self-selected survey in a biased forum.

Not basing it on this alone. See above. So, yes, it is amongst the most liked installments.

So? Even I admit that I like it...a LOT. But that doesn't stop me from seeing its flaws.

Who are you to say that they didn't put sufficient effort into their production? Just because you don't agree with production or writing choices doesn't mean they didn't put enough effort into it, it just means that you had a different opinion. The implication that they didn't "put enough effort" into it is an attempt to downplay their contribution to justify why you feel the way you feel. It is no different than the train of thought of "You have a different opinion than me, therefore you are not as intelligent."

What utter nonsense! They simply made decisions to go with a different approach to the film because it was EASIER for them to do so, and because they perceived (probably quite rightly) that the audience would've been confused by people like Number One, Bones Boyce, Jose Tyler and Yeoman Colt, Gary Mitchell, and several others. They're assuming that the audience doesn't know its Trek, and they're probably right. But don't tell me that they couldn't have put a little more effort into it to make it more coherent with the Prime Universe's canon with a few lines of dialogue. I think they have the talent to produce a movie that would've been more acceptable, but they deliberately chose not to.

What's being ignored is that this Trek XI is actually amongst the most LIKED installments in the franchise.

Ad populum and basing it on a self-selected survey in a biased forum.

Not basing it on this alone. See above. So, yes, it is amongst the most liked installments.

LOL -- Doesn't change the fact that you're make ad populems all over the place.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Nothing changes the fact that this film's success has so pleased the folks who own it that the possibility of returning to the oldTrek straitjacket is effectively nil. When this version eventually falters commercially - and eventually it will, as all such properties do - oldTrek will be far further in the past than it is now and the lesson they'll take from this successful experience is to revamp/reboot again based on the tenor and content of other successful contemporary entertainment of their era.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Link?

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=4404569&postcount=101

 

[Potemkin_Prod]

Oh, I have no doubt that that's quite true. The concept is so terrific that it will end up being rebooted time and again. And next time, it might be JTK with Uhura and Spock with Sulu and the fans on the Spock/Uhura relationship set up in nuTrek will be miffed.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Nothing changes the fact that this film's success has so pleased the folks who own it that the possibility of returning to the oldTrek straitjacket is effectively nil.

And that would be a great tragedy, because it has so much more to give us than cheap and shallow "reboots" can.

When this version eventually falters commercially - and eventually it will, as all such properties do - oldTrek will be far further in the past than it is now and the lesson they'll take from this successful experience is to revamp/reboot again based on the tenor and content of other successful contemporary entertainment of their era.

Given the mentality of Hollywood execs (who are notorious panderers to the "flavor of the moment" and short-term thinking), you may even be right.

But no power in the 'Verse can make those of us who remember what truly GOOD Trek was and is call a shit sandwich caviar.

 

[Dukhat]

That isn't what he said. He expressed what he perceived and there's nothing wrong with his viewpoint if that's how he saw it. He never claimed to speak for anyone but himself.

It may be his opinion, but he's also point-blankedly speaking for other fans when he says "That's why a lot of fans were put off in whole or in part...too much "change for change's sake," as if he speaks for every fan. He certainly doesn't speak for this fan.

And anyway, I don't know why I'm even bothering arguing with you, as if I didn't already know your own biases.

And that would be a great tragedy, because it has so much more to give us than cheap and shallow "reboots" can.

So by that logic, every new iteration of a Shakespeare play is complete and utter crap when compared to the original. Or if you just want to use sci-fi references, the new Doctor Who and nuBSG are utter crap compared to the originals. Please.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

That isn't what he said. He expressed what he perceived and there's nothing wrong with his viewpoint if that's how he saw it. He never claimed to speak for anyone but himself.

It may be his opinion, but he's also point-blankedly speaking for other fans when he says "That's why a lot of fans were put off in whole or in part...too much "change for change's sake," as if he speaks for every fan. He certainly doesn't speak for this fan.

No, I speak for myself and fans who feel similarly to me...several of whom have posted in this very thread.

And anyway, I don't know why I'm even bothering arguing with you, as if I didn't already know your own biases.

And that would be a great tragedy, because it has so much more to give us than cheap and shallow "reboots" can.

So by that logic, every new iteration of a Shakespeare play is complete and utter crap when compared to the original. Or if you just want to use sci-fi references, the new Doctor Who and nuBSG are utter crap compared to the originals. Please.

No that's not what I meant. A better analogy would be Shakespeare translated into Ebonics. It might "sell", but it would be cheap and shallow and pandering to the lowest common denominator instead of challenging the audience to rise to it's level.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Or if you just want to use sci-fi references, the new Doctor Who and nuBSG are utter crap compared to the originals. Please.

Believe it or not, there are people who think that. They seriously, really think that.

Shockingly, most folks who are even a little bit open to new things don't get nearly as "miffed" when things change as do the hard-core uberfans who complain endlessly over the minutiae.

Back when Ron Moore launched his version of Battlestar Galactica, a lot of the oldBSG fanbase liked to compare their self-dramatized "anguish" to that of trekkies: "oh yeah, well, how would you like it if they rebooted Star Trek?"

Well, the answer is: most of us have liked it just fine.

 

[Warped9]

Shockingly, most folks who are even a little bit open to new things don't get nearly as "miffed" when things change as do the hard-core uberfans who complain endlessly over the minutiae.

This is always trotted: you don't like it because it's new.

No, we don't like it because we don't agree about it being good. We do happen to like some new things, but not necessarily and automatically everything.

And if someone automatically without reservation likes anything new that comes along then I suspect they're not very discerning.

You considered the film and liked it. Fine. Then why can't it be accepted that someone else considered it and doesn't like it?

 

[darkwing_duck1]

^Or that someone liked it, but found it badly flawed?

 

[number6]

Shockingly, most folks who are even a little bit open to new things don't get nearly as "miffed" when things change as do the hard-core uberfans who complain endlessly over the minutiae.

This is always trotted: you don't like it because it's new.

No, we don't like it because we don't agree about it being good. We do happen to like some new things, but not necessarily and automatically everything.

And if someone automatically without reservation likes anything new that comes along then I suspect they're not very discerning.

You considered the film and liked it. Fine. Then why can't it be accepted that someone else considered it and doesn't like it?

Are you speaking in the royal We? Or are you speaking for all five of the people here who bitch about every new thing?

I can accept people not liking something. What I don't understand is why those people have to continually hang around and troll the fans of the thing they supposedly couldn't care less about. That makes no sense to me.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I can accept people not liking something. What I don't understand is why those people have to continually hang around and troll the fans of the thing they supposedly couldn't care less about. That makes no sense to me.

Exactly so. Honestly, I don't care whether someone else likes something that I enjoy - it's their problem, not mine. I do get bored with encountering constant, obsessive complaining whether on the Internet or IRL.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Are you speaking in the royal We? Or are you speaking for all five of the people here who bitch about every new thing?

I can accept people not liking something. What I don't understand is why those people have to continually hang around and troll the fans of the thing they supposedly couldn't care less about. That makes no sense to me.

Translation: I'm burned that there are people who won't surrender to the groupthink and mindlessly praise JJ Trek as the fount of all things good and wonderful.

 

[number6]

Are you speaking in the royal We? Or are you speaking for all five of the people here who bitch about every new thing?

I can accept people not liking something. What I don't understand is why those people have to continually hang around and troll the fans of the thing they supposedly couldn't care less about. That makes no sense to me.

Translation: I'm burned that there are people who won't surrender to the groupthink and mindlessly praise JJ Trek as the fount of all things good and wonderful.

I don't need you to speak for me.

Please don't.