"I like the new movie better..."

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I remember in 1983 when I saw "Return Of The Jedi" and folks were bitching about the Ewoks and (somewhat less) about the very soft ending, thinking "Lucas has said all along the movies are intended to create 'healthy fantasies' for kids, so how did people expect them to end?"

Which was, of course, an afterthought once I'd seen the movie. Between TESB and the release of ROTJ, those of us who were (ahem) adult fans of the films postulated that there might be all kinds of sacrifices and losses in the third film based on the darker turn that the second had taken. It was widely rumored that Han wouldn't make it through the movie, etc. But in the end, hell, even the hero spaceships survived intact, and the only major character ongoing through the series that anyone cared about who was killed (Yoda dying of old age) was the tall villain in the skullface mask and Dracula cape - died redeeming himself, in fact. Quite the good fairy tale.

 

[number6]

I remember in 1983 when I saw "Return Of The Jedi" and folks were bitching about the Ewoks and (somewhat less) about the very soft ending, thinking "Lucas has said all along the movies are intended to create 'healthy fantasies' for kids, so how did people expect them to end?"

Or begin for that matter.

 

[Sparky]

I remember in 1983 when I saw "Return Of The Jedi" and folks were bitching about the Ewoks and (somewhat less) about the very soft ending, thinking "Lucas has said all along the movies are intended to create 'healthy fantasies' for kids, so how did people expect them to end?"

Or begin for that matter.

Exactly. People expected the movies to "grow up" with them and that didn't really happen. A friend of mine has 2 boys age 6 and 8. Ep 1-3 are their favorite movies. You can guess who their favorite character is....

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Evidently you missed episodes like Errand of Mercy and Arena, which presented more thoughtful and challenging moral fare in the classic sereieses.

You wanted examples of thoughtful and challenging moral fare.... and picked "Errand of Mercy" and "Arena."

Yes, darkwing_duck1, killing is wrong.

If that's all you took away from them you weren't doing much in the way of thoughtful analysis. Both episodes examined the underlying motivations and assumptions behind the parties reasons for killing, which is much more sophisticated than "Killing bad" (which, by the way is also the wrong lesson, as not all killing is bad, even in the Trek universe."

 

[JarodRussell]

Evidently you missed episodes like Errand of Mercy and Arena, which presented more thoughtful and challenging moral fare in the classic sereieses.

You wanted examples of thoughtful and challenging moral fare.... and picked "Errand of Mercy" and "Arena."

Yes, darkwing_duck1, killing is wrong.

If that's all you took away from them you weren't doing much in the way of thoughtful analysis. Both episodes examined the underlying motivations and assumptions behind the parties reasons for killing, which is much more sophisticated than "Killing bad" (which, by the way is also the wrong lesson, as not all killing is bad, even in the Trek universe."

And that makes it an "adult show"? How dumb do you think children are?

 

[zar]

And that makes it an "adult show"? How dumb do you think children are?

I don't recall anyone ever claiming that kids are too dumb to understand. You're the one claiming that it's a "kids show", apparently based on the fact that kids can understand it. With that type of reasoning you could argue that every show on TV was made for kids.

 

[sonak]

1. Lucas talks out of his ass a lot. He also claimed that he had the entire prequels story laid out when he made the OT which clearly isn't true

2. The Indiana Jones series were also based on Saturday morning action serials but are seldom considered kids' movies

3. Lucas cheerfully accepted Joseph Campbell's endorsement of the original Star Wars as a re-telling of ancient myths, the hero's journey, etc. It can't be true that the movies are BOTH light children's movies AND modern mythology

4. The ROTJ example proves my point, as that is generally considered the weakest film of the OT, so the pattern of "the lower the quality, the more likely it is defended as just a kids' movie" continues

 

[Galileo7]

1. Lucas talks out of his ass a lot. He also claimed that he had the entire prequels story laid out when he made the OT which clearly isn't true

True, I remember that.

 

[Kelso]

It always comes off as quite silly when adults try to justify their continued love of things from their childhood by claiming that they were meant for adults all along.

I wonder if model train enthusiasts maintain similar delusions.

 

[Warped9]

It always comes off as quite silly when adults try to justify their continued love of things from their childhood by claiming that they were meant for adults all along.

I wonder if model train enthusiasts maintain similar delusions.

From the get-go TOS and TNG were intended for an adult audience. It's revisionist to claim otherwise.

 

[Galileo7]

From the get-go TOS and TNG were intended for an adult audience. It's revisionist to claim otherwise.

I have to agree. I remember as a young boy first seeing the Star Trek Animated Series that was aimed at the child viewer and that is what made me search out Star Trek TOS later.

 

[zar]

It always comes off as quite silly when adults try to justify their continued love of things from their childhood by claiming that they were meant for adults all along.

I wonder if model train enthusiasts maintain similar delusions.

Bad example, models in general are hardly considered childish. LEGO enthusiasts maybe.

TOS wasn't part of my childhood and I didn't appreciate TNG until I was older.
Nice try at trolling though...

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Aiming for something and achieving it are two different things, of course. It was pretty well understood by the folks programming Trek in syndication around the country in the 1970s that the core audience for it was young folks - young adolescents through college age. Star Wars aimed a little younger than that.

The marvelous thing about TNG that turned it into the most successful of the Trek TV series was that it became a family show - something that people of all ages watched together. When the studio recognized that, they played it up in marketing.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

1. Lucas talks out of his ass a lot. He also claimed that he had the entire prequels story laid out when he made the OT which clearly isn't true

True, I remember that.

I also remember him claiming (prior to the PT) that the films represented "The Adventures of Luke Skywalker"...fast forward to the PT and it's the saga of ANAKIN Skywalker (supposedly)...

 

[Pauln6]

The decision to show an alternate universe where Greedo shot first should tell us all that we need to know about where Lucas decided to pitch the franchise.

 

[Kelso]

From the get-go TOS and TNG were intended for an adult audience. It's revisionist to claim otherwise.

Welcome back!

Bad example, models in general are hardly considered childish. LEGO enthusiasts maybe.

Where LEGOs big in the 50's/60's? Are there currently 60 year old LEGO enthusiasts? If so, that works for me.

TOS wasn't part of my childhood

That makes me sad for you.

Aiming for something and achieving it are two different things, of course. It was pretty well understood by the folks programming Trek in syndication around the country in the 1970s that the core audience for it was young folks - young adolescents through college age. Star Wars aimed a little younger than that.

The marvelous thing about TNG that turned it into the most successful of the Trek TV series was that it became a family show - something that people of all ages watched together. When the studio recognized that, they played it up in marketing.

Right on.

By the time TNG rolled around, the kids and students who watched Trek in the 60's/70's had tykes of their own (like me!). It made sense for TNG to capitalize on that.

We watched the Reading Rainbow/Star Trek: TNG special in my first grade class. We didn't watch anything about L.A. Law.

 

[Amaris]

Aiming for something and achieving it are two different things, of course. It was pretty well understood by the folks programming Trek in syndication around the country in the 1970s that the core audience for it was young folks - young adolescents through college age. Star Wars aimed a little younger than that.

The marvelous thing about TNG that turned it into the most successful of the Trek TV series was that it became a family show - something that people of all ages watched together. When the studio recognized that, they played it up in marketing.

Yep. Back in the 70's, my mom started watching Star Trek in her early 20s, college age, and when I was born some years later, got me into the show around the age of 4 (at that age I already had a crush on Uhura). That was 1984. The show appealed to me as nothing else ever had. I may not have fully grasped all the concepts at that age, but I knew that Kirk, Spock and McCoy were good, and the Klingons were bad. Once I grew up, I started understanding the social and political underpinnings, but I have never grown out of that childlike wonder I had of the original series itself.

That reminds me of the first time I saw TNG. I was 6 years old and we were at my Aunt's house, all of us, my mom and dad, my Aunt and Uncle and their kids, more cousins, and my grandparents, and we watched "Encounter at Farpoint" on it's premier night. I went away from it realizing I now had two loves, and they were both Star Trek. That, too, has stayed with me.

The reason I love Star Trek XI, is that upon the opening scenes of the movie, I felt like that child watching his first TOS and TNG episodes for the very first time, and realizing he had found a new love and it was still Star Trek. No other Star Trek movie has ever made me feel that way, which is why the pedantic nitpicking, the overreaching to find the tiniest flaws, the disregard for fans who like the movie by those who think they're an authority on all things Trek, doesn't bother me. For a little under 2 hours, I was that 4 and 6 year old again, my eyes glued to the screen in rapt attention, cheering when our heroes emerged victorious, and wanting oh so very much to experience it again.

That is why I like the new movie better, but I like it because it ties me into my Star Trek childhood, because it succeeded in what it set out to do.

 

[Warped9]

Because something is accessible to children doesn't automatically mean it was primarily aimed at children. It is much the same like the original Looney Toons which children could enjoy, but the writing was aimed right at adults. In fact Looney Toons aren't fully appreciated until you are an adult and really understand what's being said.

I initially loved the colourful and adventurous aspects of TOS, but I didn't really appreciate it until I got older and really understood the content.

 

[Amaris]

Because something is accessible to children doesn't automatically mean it was primarily aimed at children. It is much the same like the original Looney Toons which children could enjoy, but the writing was aimed right at adults. In fact Looney Toons aren't fully appreciated until you are an adult and really understand what's being said.

I initially loved the colourful and adventurous aspects of TOS, but I didn't really appreciate it until I got older and really understood the content.

The thing is, I'm an adult and love the movie. What it does is let me reconnect with my childhood sense of wonder, while enjoying the movie on an adult level where that wonder has since diminished in favor of cynicism. In essence, Star Trek XI makes me want to believe in the magic again.

 

[number6]

Because something is accessible to children doesn't automatically mean it was primarily aimed at children. It is much the same like the original Looney Toons which children could enjoy, but the writing was aimed right at adults. In fact Looney Toons aren't fully appreciated until you are an adult and really understand what's being said.

I initially loved the colourful and adventurous aspects of TOS, but I didn't really appreciate it until I got older and really understood the content.

The thing is, I'm an adult and love the movie. What it does is let me reconnect with my childhood sense of wonder, while enjoying the movie on an adult level where that wonder has since diminished in favor of cynicism. In essence, Star Trek XI makes me want to believe in the magic again.

I completely agree on both counts.