DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

[Quinton O'Connor]

I agree with your assessments, DevilEyes, and would stress that the very schizophrenic nature of the sixth season is the reason I can see why people wouldn't list it as a high mark past its opening string of relative excellence. Still, even if the seasons weren't as tight as they could have been, I find there are far more ups than downs and they're both well worth watching.

As usual, I have to emphasize that this is all based on distant memories and I might come around later. I hope not, but yeah.

 

[flemm]

I didn't know that any of those episodes were supposed to be weak until I started reading this forum. I always thought Statistical Probabilities was a great episode, Wrongs was also excellent (despite having a major retcon, but I guess as far as major retcons go, this one was more plausible than most tend to be, compare BSG's retcons for instance), and Valiant was also very good - I never understood the hate. The thing that does hurt season 6 is that the incredibly intense Dominion occupation arc is followed by a wedding episode (which is OK in itself - it's the placement of it that I have issues with), then the pointless episode about Kira meeting MU Bareil (or rather, its only point seems to have been to please a portion of the fanbase), and it all just felt weird. Now, I don't think that every episode should have been like Rocks and Shoals, but it was too much of a 180 degrees switch. After everything that happened in Sacrifice of Angels, two episodes go with barely a mention of the Dominion, and it doesn't feel like there is a war going on at all.

But season 7 suffers from the same problem, with a string of Ezri episodes and baseball/holodeck episodes. Now, I agree that not every episode should have been like The Siege of AR-558, but those fun episodes, IMO, should have featured more of the feeling that there is a war going on in the background. But when you make episodes about Ezri's family or Vic Fontaine or a baseball game with the Vulcans that you can probably watch in their entirety without realizing that there is a major war going on, the show just feel schizophrenic. Maybe they could have done those episodes with a politics/war-related B-story, like In the Cards did. It's a Paper Moon is a great example of a season 7 episode that manages to show the other side of the war , the consequences on people who got wounded/mutilated and traumatized, and be a heartwarming little character story at the same time. Field of Fire should probably also be added to the list, as its story is related to the stress and trauma caused by the war.

Interesting thoughts, as always. I might disagree with a couple of specific points**, but overall I think you are right that the changes of tone are more jarring in seasons 6 and 7 of DS9 than in previous seasons.

**For example, while Resurrection is directionless fluff, I think the wedding is appropriate as a follow-up to the occupation arc because it feels like part of a celebration following a momentous victory.

 

[Sykonee]

Wow, I'm quite surprised by the overwhelming thumbs-up for VOY last week. Yeah, they're both fairly equal episodes, but I guess there's just not many Ezri fans here, even if she does get a proper Character Episode out of the deal.

Week 4: (Ending 10.25.98)
DS9 - Take Me Out To The Holosuite (Airdate 10.21.98)
VOY - Drone (Airdate 10.21.98)

I just watched that Hannibal movie staring Siddig. It took me a little bit to see him as the infamous Carthaginian rather than our good doctor, but once I got into the movie, I was totally sold on it. So much so that, when I saw him in this episode right afterwards, I couldn't help but think, "Hey, it's Hannibal playing baseball!" But enough present-time musings; how did the episodes here in question fare back in ye' olde year of 1998?

Well, it's hard to hate DS9 - its heart is definitely in the right place, and I have plenty of good ol' laughs throughout. It doesn't mean much in the long run, but who cares so long as you're having fun, right? Hey, that's the message of this episode, ain't it.

VOY, however, comes strong with the drama, action, tension... just about everything really. I could have done without One's 'Data-isms' (clarifying a word with a dictionary description) and the plot does feel a bit rushed, but beyond that there's little to find fault with here. Yeah, One's fate is pretty much sealed from the get-go (no way Doc's going without his mobile emitter next episode), yet as Reset Button Episodes go, they get good mileage out it.

Does DS9 even have a hope of competing against that? Well, maybe if you're a baseball fan rather than a sci-fi fan. Who knows, maybe some did tune into DS9 for the baseball antics (if '97 was the Year Of Sci-Fi, '98 was definitely the Year Of Baseball ...'s resurgence anyway). But nah, VOY easily wins this week. Still, DS9 sure had fun losing the way it did, huh?

With both shows starting out pretty well this season, one wonders what B5 will have in store for us when it returns next week. What did we leave off on anyway? Oh yes, the DESTRUCTION OF CENTAURI PRIME!!!

Weekly Winner
VOY

Next:
DS9 - Chrysalis
VOY - Extreme Risk
B5 - The Fall Of Centauri Prime

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Eek! I really don't like Take Me Out to the Holosuite. For one thing, I neither understand nor care about baseball. How do you score? How do you win? Sisko's interest in it was a nice little detail for his character to have, but as the basis for a whole episode?

Another thing, I think that Sisko pretty much acts like a jerk all through the episode, even after he realises that it's supposed to be about having fun. The scene at the end where they all mock the Vulcans left a bad taste in my mouth as well. So much for Federation values...

I did think Whisky flavoured chewing gum was funny though.

 

[TheGodBen]

Does DS9 even have a hope of competing against that?

Yes. Because Drone is an absurd concept that would only work if you're able to buy One as a character, and I wasn't; he's just a smiley version of Data and he doesn't portray the threat to the galaxy he's supposed to be. There's an air of Mr Neutron about the whole thing.

Next:
DS9 - Chrysalis
VOY - Extreme Risk
B5 - The Fall Of Centauri Prime

I wonder which episode will win next week.

For one thing, I neither understand nor care about baseball.

Neither do I, which is why I enjoyed the scene towards the start where the crew are trying to figure out the rules. It just highlights how absurd the game is.

 

[flemm]

The scene at the end where they all mock the Vulcans left a bad taste in my mouth as well. So much for Federation values...

The Vulcans in this episode were more than happy to take pleasure in beating a team comprised mostly of players who had never previously even known the rules, let alone experienced an actual game, then rubbing their faces in it afterward.

The Niners are just refusing to be humiliated, and refusing to accept these Vulcans' definition of victory. I say "these Vulcans" because their definition is no more logical than that of the Niners.

Nowhere in the Federation values handbook, to my knowledge, does it say: "You must conform to your opponents' definition of victory, no matter how petty, and you cannot have a good laugh at their expense, even though they set out to humiliate you and thought they had succeeded."

 

[Pemmer Harge]

The scene at the end where they all mock the Vulcans left a bad taste in my mouth as well. So much for Federation values...

The Vulcans in this episode were more than happy to take pleasure in beating a team comprised mostly of players who had never previously even known the rules, let alone experienced an actual game, then rubbing their faces in it afterward.

The Niners are just refusing to be humiliated, and refusing to accept these Vulcans' definition of victory. I say "these Vulcans" because their definition is no more logical than that of the Niners.

Nowhere in the Federation values handbook, to my knowledge, does it say: "You must conform to your opponents' definition of victory, no matter how petty, and you cannot have a good laugh at their expense, even though they set out to humiliate you and thought they had succeeded."

Well, I didn't like how the Vulcans were characterized either (foretaste of Enterprise, perhaps), but it felt to me like they were mocking Vulcans as a whole.

Really, the trouble is that I couldn't sympathize with anyone in this episode.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

I liked TMOTHH despite not knowing or caring to know baseball, because I've always enjoyed the 'baseball angle' on Sisko's character despite that -- it adds something to him. It's kind of like how John Crichton pops all these pop culture references out all the time in Farscape, but I don't get half of them; they're still funny to me because somehow, they still manage to succeed.

 

[flemm]

Well, I didn't like how the Vulcans were characterized either (foretaste of Enterprise, perhaps), but it felt to me like they were mocking Vulcans as a whole.

Really, the trouble is that I couldn't sympathize with anyone in this episode.

I can see not liking the characterization of the Vulcans in this episode. In fact it struck me as a bit odd that the opposing team would be all Vulcans to begin with, since it's not really "logic versus emotion," but "petty rivalry and a limited definition of victory vs. comraderie and a broader definition of victory." I think a non-Vulcan or diverse group of opponents would have worked just as well. It's possible the DS9 writers just aren't big fans of Vulcans: they are notably minor players on a show that shows a lot of interest in other prominent Trek races such as the Klingons and Romulans.

I like TMOTTHS well enough, but I'm not crazy about it. It reminds me a bit of Who Mourns for Morn? in that it is one of those moments when DS9 manifests that tendency to be a bit too "inside" and self-absorbed. I can imagine the "So, are we going to do the Morn episode?" conversation was followed shortly thereafter by the "So, are we going to do the baseball episode?" conversation. I don't really have strong feelings either way. Both episodes are fun, but had they been skipped I wouldn't be crying any tears.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

*Secretly, flemm cries every time he misses either episode. In fact, were it a toss between "Who Mourns For Morn" and "Far Beyond The Stars", the latter would sooner get taped over five times before he'd miss 'the Morn episode'.

More on this and other hot inside scoops to be found in this week's The Niner Enquirer!

 

[flemm]

*Secretly, flemm cries every time he misses either episode. In fact, were it a toss between "Who Mourns For Morn" and "Far Beyond The Stars", the latter would sooner get taped over five times before he'd miss 'the Morn episode'.

More on this and other hot inside scoops to be found in this week's The Niner Enquirer!

That is uncanny. Were you able to hack my webcam or something?

 

[TheGodBen]

Webcam? No, he's behind you right now.

Spoiler: spoiler

Did you look?

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

 

[Sykonee]

Week 5: (Ending 11.01.98)
DS9 - Chrysalis (Airdate 10.28.98)
VOY - Extreme Risk (Airdate 10.28.98)
B5 - The Fall Of Centuari Prime (Airdate 10.28.98)

Y'know, even though I can somewhat sympathize with Bashir for moving "too fast" with a gal (oh yes, it's happened a couple times in the past), it strains credibility that he'd actually fall in love with Sarina just like that, genetically enhanced or not. There's some nice scenes involving the Jack Pack scattered about, and it's cool that Salie got to show just how good of an actress she is after her silent showing last year, but what does this episode ultimately amount to? Bashir's a lonely guy, and he remains a lonely guy. Oh well, better luck next time, fella'.

Meanwhile on VOY, B'Elanna's apparently been feeling all emo in recent months, which is news to me. However, all audio records of Linkin Park and Good Charlotte have been wiped out by the 24th Century, so she has to resort the Klingon version of cutting herself: EXTREME acts of action! Like DS9 this week, it's nicely acted, but given the abrupt nature of this dilemma and all-too-easy solution for her depression (I fix'ed stuff, me happys now), it's yet another episode that doesn't feel like it amounts to much of anything. But hey, Doc never left Sickbay, so maybe they're actually following up on the Mobile Emitter thing after all!

All right, all right. It's clear this is B5's week. However, it's not a big guns-blazing action-adventurer as you might think, considering we left off with planetary bombardment. Nay, this is pretty much a Londo Episode, where he finally becomes Emperor. The cost, though, is his freedom, his self-respect at the prospect of becoming a mere puppet (again!), perhaps even his very soul. After all, he made a deal with the Devils way back, and despite managing to elude them for a while, they (or rather, their left-over servants) have finally come to collect their debt. B5 has its share of tragic characters, but none so tragic as Londo. Does he have any hope of escaping this fate? Well, yeah, I guess. I mean, we saw that way back in War Without End, remember? Man, that sure seems like a long time ago, given what's gone down in the 5-verse since.

Oh, and Lennier finally says he loves Delenn to her, to which she responds, "Eh? Did you say something? I thought it was the wind." Yeah, kick him in the nuts while you're at it.

So B5 comes back strong, catching DS9 and VOY either throwing this week due to their competitor's return, or simply with their pants down. Hm, with B5 heading into retirement soon, maybe they're just letting the veteran go out with dignity. Will the Treks counter-attack next week, or remain out of it?

Weekly Winner
B5

Next:
DS9 - Treachery, Faith, And The Great River
VOY - In The Flesh
B5 - Wheel Of Fire

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

DS9 has a great episode next week, but so does B5.

I lol'd hard at the Linkin Park/Good Charlotte mentions.

 

[Harvey]

Meh, I like the DS9 outing better than the B5 episode. Despite sharing the season title, "Wheel of Fire" is probably the weakest post-Byron arc episode.

But, hell, I'm one of those weirdos that likes "In the Flesh," too, if only for a chance to see Boothby and Starfleet Academy again (sort of).

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

I don't hate "In the Flesh", actually. Oh man, you're so cool, Harvey. Farscape avatar and user name, Battlestar Galactica signature. Posting on a Star Trek forum. You combine all my sci-fi passions. Actually, you're missing Stargate and Babylon 5, but I'm still very impressed.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Ah man, The Fall of Centauri Prime. I think this is definitely one of B5's best episodes. The conclusion to Londo's story (and yeah, I know he's in Objects at Rest) is superbly executed and Peter Jurasik really rises to the occasion. I also think the way the Regent has been handled is great writing - when he was introduced, I'd never have imagined how he'd end up. Add to that the scenes with Delenn and Lennier and you've got the best episode of Season 5 (well except Sleeping in Light, but that was filmed with Season 4). It wraps up a big part of B5's story and, to be honest, it brings a tear to my eye.

Chrysalis (geek moment: the only episode title DS9 and B5 share) is decent enough, although not as good as Statistical Propabilities, but it does show the weaknesses of the love-interest-of-the-week format. There are Trek episodes that pull that format off (e.g. TNG Lessons), but here, it feels kind of inconsequential.

 

[TheGodBen]

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Extreme Risk wins this one easily because it teaches us how easy it is for suicidal tendencies to go away.

Okay, The Fall of Centauri Prime can't be beaten here, it pretty much concludes Londo's arc in the only way it could; tragedy. It would be a perfect episode if not for the Delenn/Lennier scenes. I like where that story ended up, but I got annoyed at how long it took to get there.

 

[Sykonee]

Week 6: (Ending 11.08.98)
DS9 - Treachery, Faith, And The Great River (Airdate 11.04.98)
VOY - In The Flesh (Airdate 11.04.98)
B5 - The Wheel Of Fire (Airdate 11.04.98)

I really don't know why I'm mentioning this, but this is the second episode in a row that has featured Doc without the Mobile Emitter. For some reason, I keep expecting VOY to forget the little tidbit of information that it was used in the body of One, and carry on like nothing happened in that episode. It's just what I've come to expect of the show at this point. And no, this isn't because I DO know he somehow gets it back since I've actually seen future episodes - I haven't watched all episodes of VOY (and S5 now remains the season I've seen the least episodes of), so I really don't know if it's followed up or not. This actually has me intrigued in the show!

Speaking of following things up, here's 8472 again. In The Flesh is a bit hard to form a concrete opinion on. While the premise is interesting, and the message is sound (diplomacy, not detonation!), you feel like they're selling 8472 short. Granted, we never did get to know much about the species in the first place, so for all we know, they may actually be more peaceful than we gave them credit for. Their "purge the galaxy" could simply have been a paranoid overreaction to having their space invaded by a dangerous threat. Sure, 8472 would be sooo much more wicked awesome coolio if they remained enigmatic bad-asses, but this is Trek. Give peace a chance, yo'. Ultimately though, In The Flesh neuters VOY's most promising villains to sell that message.

DS9, meanwhile, keeps its villains firmly in villainous territory, and with a whole bunch of phasers phiring at phields of phloating phrozen ph-water while we're at it - seriously, that comet debris chase had some really lovely CGI work done. Another interesting episode here, mostly getting into matters of faith. Fortunately, since no Bajorans are involved this time, these discussions are far more entertaining (kidding!). Yes, the Weyoun/Odo stuff is good stuff, but who'd have thought getting an inside look into the Ferengi belief system would be just as fascinating. Sure, it's still a trumped up example of capitalist 'needs-and-wants', but where the Ferengi are concerned, it makes sense that it'd evolve into a sort of pseudo-religion itself.

And then we have B5, which... um... doesn't seem to do a whole lot actually. This is sort of a coda episode to everything that's happened during the Centauri conflict, and where everyone's going from there. There isn't a sense of a calm before a storm, or any real set-ups for something climatic in the final two episodes. Just... yeah, show's almost done, and folks gotta move on. Quietly and as gracefully as they can. On the other hand, at least Lochley finally got to have a strong monologue - in a show that's given nearly everyone at least one, it's about time she got her chance (Captain's Log/soliloquies don't count).

So, who wins? DS9, I guess. It has more going for it than B5 this week, and unlike VOY, I don't come away feeling somewhat cheated in the end.

Weekly Winner
DS9

Next:
DS9 - Once More Unto The Breach
VOY - Once Upon A Time
B5 - [Once] In Motion