DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

[flemm]

I can see a lot of Saving Private Ryan in this episode from start to finish almost.

To a point, yeah, but mostly because Saving Private Ryan uses a lot of the same tropes that were already established long before that movie was made: the trophy collector, the pacifist/anti-war character who eventually picks up a gun to fight, the calm before the battle, the inexperienced young soldier, the grizzled everyman leader, the sudden burst of music on the battlefield, etc.

The DS9 writers like classic movies (The Magnificent Seven, Casablanca, The Searchers, film noir), they probably went back to some classic war films, or possibly one in particular (though which particular one escapes me).

 

[Sykonee]

Also, this:

Director Winrich Kolbe had fought in the Vietnam War, and he allowed his knowledge of combat to influence his direction of the episode; "The images you see are trenches of churned-up dirt. The battleground always looked like there was absolutely nothing there that anyone could ever want. Yet people were blowing each other to smithereens over this land. I wanted AR-558 to be that type of battleground, a totally non-descript piece of real estate that didn't deserve one drop of blood to be shed for it. It shouldn't say anything to the eye or the mind except that we were there because somebody had decided to put a relay station on this rock." Kolbe goes on to say, "We wanted the siege scene in "AR-558" to convey the psychological impact, and not come across like a shoot-em-up. What I remember from Vietnam is sitting in a ditch somewhere and waiting. It's the waiting that drives you nuts. You know they're coming. You can hear them. You can feel them. When you have to wait, your mind plays tricks on you, and you hear things and you see things, like Vargas, who's about to explode. Once the battle starts, your adrenaline kicks in and you have an objective. But when you have to wait, time just slows down to a crawl." Kolbe felt that the battle for AR-558 had a great deal of similarity with the 1968 Battle of Khe Sanh, a battle which was won by the Americans, but the strategic significance of which is still debated to this day. (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion)

Memory Alpha

 

[flemm]

Also, this:

Director Winrich Kolbe had fought in the Vietnam War, and he allowed his knowledge of combat to influence his direction of the episode; "The images you see are trenches of churned-up dirt. The battleground always looked like there was absolutely nothing there that anyone could ever want. Yet people were blowing each other to smithereens over this land. I wanted AR-558 to be that type of battleground, a totally non-descript piece of real estate that didn't deserve one drop of blood to be shed for it. It shouldn't say anything to the eye or the mind except that we were there because somebody had decided to put a relay station on this rock." Kolbe goes on to say, "We wanted the siege scene in "AR-558" to convey the psychological impact, and not come across like a shoot-em-up. What I remember from Vietnam is sitting in a ditch somewhere and waiting. It's the waiting that drives you nuts. You know they're coming. You can hear them. You can feel them. When you have to wait, your mind plays tricks on you, and you hear things and you see things, like Vargas, who's about to explode. Once the battle starts, your adrenaline kicks in and you have an objective. But when you have to wait, time just slows down to a crawl." Kolbe felt that the battle for AR-558 had a great deal of similarity with the 1968 Battle of Khe Sanh, a battle which was won by the Americans, but the strategic significance of which is still debated to this day. (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion)

Memory Alpha

Interesting read, thanks for posting it. It's a good description of why the episode works and is convincing on a visceral level despite the presence of a number of very predictable elements in the script. Also, some of the tropes exist for good reason, such as the agonizing wait before the battle, which certainly does seem to reflect the actual experience of war in certain circumstances.

(I'm less of a fan of the "trophy collecting" and the "non-violent character becomes capable of heroic violence" tropes, but even these are handled pretty well in this episode.)

 

[Nightdiamond]

At first I didn't catch them, but on looking back at the episode I noticed the similarities.


In DS9,while they're waiting for the Jem Hadar to come, Bashir plays some music (by Vic,) over a speaker.

Saving Private Ryan -- the troops are waiting for the enemy, the pacifist character plays a record loudly over some speakers.

In DS9, there's a part where Sisko uses the enemy's mines against the Jem Hadar when they began approaching.

In Saving Private Ryan they improvise what little weapons they have to attack the enemy as they approached.

Then again, all that would probably happen in any war situation like these...

 

[Sykonee]

At first I didn't catch them, but on looking back at the episode I noticed the similarities.


In DS9,while they're waiting for the Jem Hadar to come, Bashir plays some music (by Vic,) over a speaker.

Saving Private Ryan -- the troops are waiting for the enemy, the pacifist character plays a record loudly over some speakers.

Again from Memory Alpha:

The song which Bashir plays while awaiting the Jem'Hadar attack is "I'll Be Seeing You", written in 1938 by Sammy Fain and Irving Kahal, and which became one of the most popular songs during the Second World War.

Mind, this was also about the time that fascination over WWII started to kick into high gear (thanks, of course, to SPR), so it isn't that surprising that DS9 would do a couple homages (style-bites?) in honor of movies depicting that war.

 

[Nightdiamond]

At first I didn't catch them, but on looking back at the episode I noticed the similarities.


In DS9,while they're waiting for the Jem Hadar to come, Bashir plays some music (by Vic,) over a speaker.

Saving Private Ryan -- the troops are waiting for the enemy, the pacifist character plays a record loudly over some speakers.

Again from Memory Alpha:

The song which Bashir plays while awaiting the Jem'Hadar attack is "I'll Be Seeing You", written in 1938 by Sammy Fain and Irving Kahal, and which became one of the most popular songs during the Second World War.

Mind, this was also about the time that fascination over WWII started to kick into high gear (thanks, of course, to SPR), so it isn't that surprising that DS9 would do a couple homages (style-bites?) in honor of movies depicting that war.

I still remember some of that song, it stays with you..


And yep! I miss that entire period, there were more sci fi shows on, and movies, tv, seem to have had much more creativity...

 

[TheGodBen]

I still remember some of that song, it stays with you..

I was once partaking in a romantic evening (chocolate syrup and strawberries were involved) when that song started to play, and I paused to figure out where I knew it from. Suddenly, recollection dawned and I shouted out "That song was on Deep Space Nine!"

It completely killed the mood.


But yeah, the song sticks with you.

 

[Sykonee]

Week 9: (Ending 11.29.98)
DS9 - Covenant (Airdate 11.25.98)
VOY - Infinite Regress (Airdate 11.25.98)
B5 - Sleeping In Light (Airdate 11.25.98)

I'm surprised I ended up enjoying VOY this Week as much as I did. Seven with multiple personality syndrome? Huh, just seems like an excuse to let Ryan stretch as an actor in multiple roles, and we all remember how well that worked when they did the same thing to Data in Masks. Though hey, she does do a decent job of it most of the time, but yeah, just an excuse, right?

Not so fast. There was something genuinely creepy about watching Seven listen to her log entries under these personalities, and her creeping unease at hearing her voice as someone else. That was an excellently directed scene, followed by quite the frenetic climax to the episode. Granted the fight with the Black Light Shower Curtain Aliens felt needlessly tacked on, but the mind meld stuff was interesting and, dare I say, even frightening.

DS9... felt like a retread of more Kira/Dukat angst. Honestly, their dynamic seems to have grounded to a halt after the Occupation Arc, and for good reason, as there's nothing left to explore between the two of them. She'll never accept him, and now that he seems to have found a new calling, his pursuit of her doesn't ring quite a true. As for Dukat's new role, even that mostly comes off unnecessary to his arc ...that is, until you get that one scene of him alone, praying to the Wraiths. It's at this point that he suddenly becomes a compelling character again. Where is he going with this? Does he truly believe to be a vessel for them, or is there some sort of self-serving motivation still lurking underneath? Unfortunately, that isn't touched upon here, but it does make his next appearance that much more intriguing.

Meanwhile, B5 airs its Series Finale this Week. Man, what a crap ending that was. Not bad enough that it was apparently all a reenactment (so who knows just how accurate it all was), not bad enough that Sheridan seems to now have some fancy futuristic spaceship for him to use, not bad enough he seems to just disappear and join up with a bunch of deity-aliens, not bad enough we have to put up with all these actors in Old People make-up, but we also have to watch Sheridan trade bodies with a woman as well??? Oh wait, I'm getting my Series Finales mixed up.

Yeah, Sleeping In Light is a great conclusion to a great series. Coda, epilogue, denouement, quiet reflection... all of these. It's the last days of John Sheridan, and the final rotation of Babylon 5. Not much in the way of plot, but then for a poetic episode such as this, plot just gets in the way.

It's a shame the Treks didn't step aside graciously to allow B5 the solo light the Week. On the other hand, B5 tried to go against TNG's Finale as well, and got soundly thumped in the process. While I wouldn't say the same for this week, B5 is the clear winner in its swan song. The final Triple Threat dance goes to the upstart series.

Weekly Winner
B5

Next:
VOY - Nothing Human

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Ah now, isn't The Siege of AR-558 a great episode? I don't think I've seen a DS9 episode as intense as this since Season 5. Always good to see Bill Mumy as well.

Objects at Rest, due to being less focused, isn't quite as good as that one, but it's still an excellent episode. Delenn's speech when she and Sheridan leave B5 really gets me. What a long road it's been. As for the Lennier thing, I can buy it. There's been a fair amount of stuff leading to this, since at least Season 3. Man, this show can be depressing though, can't it?

Timeless is a good episode. I don't love it as much as many, however.

Covenant was pretty compelling in it's way, but I can't help feel that the story is on some level ridiculous. Dukat's a shadow of his former self these days.

Then there's Sleeping in Light. Oh my but seeing this was a special moment for me. You see, I'd gained plenty of enjoyment from watching Season 5, but somehow, it wasn't quite as great as what came before - at times it almost felt like a spinoff or sequel series. Then comes Sleeping in Light and there it is, that glory days, Season 4 feeling returns. But that's only the start.

Sheridan and Delenn's farewell was a beautiful scene - her in white and him in black at opposite ends of the hall, then coming together to say goodbye - it was everything it should have been (). Having Sheridan drop by B5 one last time then head to Coriana 6 was exactly right and his fate was sad, wondrous and mysterious.

What more can I add? Bringing all the surviving characters (except perhaps Na'Toth - whatever happened to her?) together for one last time was great and frankly I found it very moving to see these people again all these years down the line. One thing I really like is the sense of finality here - Sheridan's gone, B5 is gone and Ivanova's voiceover takes us up, at least, to the end of her life and Delenn's life. It's truly the end, and it's a beautiful thing.

It probably won't surprise anyone if I say that this is my favourite of the series being covered in this thread.

 

[Harvey]

Na'Toth's fate was revealed earlier in season five. I don't see why they would bring her back for "Sleeping in Light." It doesn't help that the finale was filmed before the season five episode where they managed to bring back the original Na'Toth actress in the make-up she so despised.

 

[Sykonee]

Okay, got through another midterm, and have spent enough time on a report. Time to take a break!

Week 10: (Ending 12.06.98)
VOY - Nothing Human (Airdate 12.02.98)

This was actually one of the very few post-Scorpion VOY episodes I saw first-run, which is even more remarkable considering I was living at a place that didn't even have cable. I can't remember how I came to watch it either, as none of my buddies of the time were much into Trek. I do, however, remember my thoughts after watching this:

"Hm. Cardassian. Cardassian hate via a Bajoran. Grey issue raised with no easy answer resolved. When did VOY turn into DS9? Not bad, not bad at all."

Yeah, there's a bunch of nitpicky things about this episode, and the puppet-alien's kind of silly looking (with poor B'Elanna looking even sillier with it on her, sadly), but none of it detracts from the ambiguous moral quandary brought up, of which we're left to uncomfortably ponder it much as Doc does at the very end.

Weekly Winner
VOY

Next:
VOY - Thirty Days

 

[Bones2]

Good episode, Nothing Human. Thirty Days is good too. Voyager was a good show. Cowardly DS9 just couldn't compete so didn't turn up.

 

[TheGodBen]

I thought Nothing Human was a huge disappointment considering it was so clearly modelling itself after episodes like Duet, or Ethics. Firstly, they create a hologram using records about a real person, then they see fit to blame the hologram for the crimes of the person he is based on and not on the hologram's own actions. TNG already covered this with Leah Brahms; a hologram based on the records of a person is not the same as the real person, and should not be treated that way. Does Nothing Human explore this dilemma? Should the hologram be punished for the crimes of the real Moset? The episode doesn't even consider the question, as far as the episode is concerned, the hologram is the real Moset.

If that wasn't bad enough, the ending of the episode is contradictory and goes against everything Dr Shmully had been advocating all along. Shmully goes from arguing passionately that the research should be used to save lives, regardless of where it came from, to suddenly deciding to delete it all because it's immoral, with no real reason given for this about-face on his part. If the episode wanted to condemn Moset, it should have let B'Elanna die, but if the episode wanted B'Elanna to live then Shmully should have come to a different conclusion at the end.

This episode was either trying to have its cake and eat it too, or it has the wrong understanding of what moral ambiguity is supposed to be about. I give the episode points for trying, because Voyager didn't try to do these episodes often, but the execution is hopelessly flawed in my opinion.

 

[DevilEyes]

sen

I thought Nothing Human was a huge disappointment considering it was so clearly modelling itself after episodes like Duet, or Ethics. Firstly, they create a hologram using records about a real person, then they see fit to blame the hologram for the crimes of the person he is based on and not on the hologram's own actions. TNG already covered this with Leah Brahms; a hologram based on the records of a person is not the same as the real person, and should not be treated that way. Does Nothing Human explore this dilemma? Should the hologram be punished for the crimes of the real Moset? The episode doesn't even consider the question, as far as the episode is concerned, the hologram is the real Moset.

If that wasn't bad enough, the ending of the episode is contradictory and goes against everything Dr Shmully had been advocating all along. Shmully goes from arguing passionately that the research should be used to save lives, regardless of where it came from, to suddenly deciding to delete it all because it's immoral, with no real reason given for this about-face on his part. If the episode wanted to condemn Moset, it should have let B'Elanna die, but if the episode wanted B'Elanna to live then Shmully should have come to a different conclusion at the end.

This episode was either trying to have its cake and eat it too, or it has the wrong understanding of what moral ambiguity is supposed to be about. I give the episode points for trying, because Voyager didn't try to do these episodes often, but the execution is hopelessly flawed in my opinion.

Exactly. I've made my opinion on Nothing Human clear on more than one occasion, so I'll just add that wouldn't give it a win even on a week where it didn't have any competition. Episodes like Threshold are at least funny in their silliness, but NH is an fail in every sense of the word, an episode that is trying to be deep and explore Important!Issues, so it is all the worse when you've prepared yourself for a great deep episode of Trek, and you end up watching something that is incredibly shallow, illogical, full of plot holes, hypocrisy and unfortunate racist implications.*

* Cardassians are bad. They're all bad. See, even Starfleet boy scout Harry Kim says so, and nobody corrects him. Not only that, but holograms that look Cardassian are bad, too. B'Elanna says so. OK, B'Elanna is racist and a nutter. And the Doc, for some reason, insists on his holographic friend looking like a Cardassian, instead of solving the problem by simply saying: "Computer: change the appearance parameters to Human." But then it turns out the Cardassian hologram is really evil. Or is that the Cardassian that the hologram is based on is evil, rather than the hologram itself? Whatever, it's unclear. And B'Elanna says "So I was right", and nobody corrects her. Well, yeah, B'Elanna is right, because, obviously, she knew that all Cardassians are evil. It's not like she knew who Crell Moset even was, or paid any attention to who the hologram looked like. She just knew he looked Cardassian, and that was enough. So, dear viewers, now you know that all Cardassians are evil. And, all holograms who look Cardassian are evil, as well, because the hologram, for some reason, turns out to be an asshole. Which, really, should be the Doctor's fault, since he's the one who created the Moset hologram, no? Unless the hologram is sentient and is breaking his programming. (And I guess he just turns out to be evil just like Moset, because... eh, how the hell am I supposed to know why?) In which case, out dear Doctor, a fighter for sentient holographic rights, has just committed a murder.

 

[Kai Winn]

yep, it'll get worse soon in equinox II where he murders his own clone, but since we are running out of ds9 episodes, we probably won't get there. it's the same moral dilemma like in "the pale moonlight". why do we like that episode?

 

[flemm]

Nothing Human is a bit like Tuvix in that they are good examples of how not to write a moral dilemma. In Tuvix, the issue is that the preposterous premise forces Janeway to commit murder, basically, to allow the episode to have the requisite reset button.

In Nothing Human, the problem is the episode doesn't address the moral dilemma the writers seem to think it addresses, but instead reveals that the writers are working with a series of a very dubious and even potentially objectionable set of attitudes and assumptions (and are oblivious to the implications of those assumptions). Dear Doctor is like this as well.

EDIT: As TheGodBen notes below, it is all in the execution. DS9 often chose to present moral dilemmas with no clear solution, but a moral dilemma can be handled well even when we are clearly supposed to sympathize with a particular response to the problem, as is often the case on TNG in episodes like The Measure of a Man and The Drumhead.

 

[TheGodBen]

The problem with the episode isn't the moral dilemma, it's the way it's handled, and Nothing Human handled it incredibly poorly while In the Pale Moonlight handled it incredibly well. Look no further than the final scenes of both episodes to see why. Nothing Human's final scene has Dr Shmully completely contradicting his position throughout the episode with no explanation about why he has so radically changed his mind, then the episode sees fit to condemn Moset for his crimes. ITPM ends with no condemnation, it ends with Sisko clearly struggling to justify things to himself, the audience is left to decide if he was right or wrong. They are worlds apart.

Like I said, I admire Nothing Human for the intention, but the outcome was muddled.

 

[Kai Winn]

oh yeah, sisko's struggle with himself compensates for the impulses of megalomania earlier on ("I will bring the romulan empire into the dominion war", the stress on the "I"), thereby condemning millions, of romulans to death, and the rest to a lower standard of life. if the scale is large enough, and if it's good for our guys, then it's ok. i could spot a few potholes in moonlight's plot, the explanation why the romulans would assume the dominion killed their senator and declare war on the dominion appeared to be meagre: does no one care what business vreenak had on ds9 shortly before his demise, which happens to be the residence of a cardassian operative with quite some history on romulus? better than the voy episode here, nonetheless.

 

[TheGodBen]

oh yeah, sisko's struggle with himself compensates for the impulses of megalomania earlier on ("I will bring the romulan empire into the dominion war", the stress on the "I"),

Which he says in a log entry after he had successfully done so. It's not megalomania, he had already proven himself of being able to carry out the task.

thereby condemning millions, of romulans to death, and the rest to a lower standard of life. if the scale is large enough, and if it's good for our guys, then it's ok.

Yes, hence the moral dilemma. What makes In the Pale Moonlight so great is that it doesn't provide the answer to the moral quandary, the audience is the ultimate judge as to whether Sisko was right or not. That's one of the reasons why Nothing Human's dilemma doesn't work, the episode not only condemns Moset, it does so in a very sloppy manner.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Re: a few pages ago - I finally got round to watching The River of Souls.

Pros: The production values are excellent. I've never seen Babylon 5 look this slick.
Good cast - nice to see Ian McShane and one of my favourite actors, Martin Sheen, here.
Expanded role for Captain Lochley - I always liked her and she was often absent for several episodes at a time, so it's good to see her get plenty of screen time here.

Cons: Not really that great a story - Soul Hunter was one of my least favourite episodes, so I wasn't desperate for a follow-up. This was better than that, but it's still kind of average.
I like seeing Richard Biggs show up, of course, but couldn't Lochley have seen Zoe inside the sphere? That would have seemed more fitting, to me.

Overall - OK, but not as good as In the Beginning or Thirdspace.