Jedi powers

[C.E. Evans]

Force-lightning should be mentioned as a mostly Sith ability. Jedi presumably can do it too, but don't as it may be viewed as a Dark Side power, IMO.

Oh right, I forgot about that one. Does using dark side powers make a Jedi more vulnerable to the dark side? How about just committing evil acts in general?

I would think yes to both, IMO. I think Jedi Masters tend to warn their padawans very much against anything remotely connected to the Dark Side because of how seductive and easy it is. Even if you tap into it even once, only the strongest of Jedi might resist the temptation to use it ever again, especially during a fight.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Force Heal (allows you to regenerate your health. Obi-Wan kinda uses it on Luke after the Tusken attack)

Emperor Palpatine also uses it on Anakin to help him when they found his mutilated body on Mustafar.

Force-lightning should be mentioned as a mostly Sith ability. Jedi presumably can do it too, but don't as it may be viewed as a Dark Side power, IMO.

Oh right, I forgot about that one. Does using dark side powers make a Jedi more vulnerable to the dark side? How about just committing evil acts in general?

It's generally thought that using Dark Side powers makes you more "vulnerable" to the Dark Side. Sith would say it makes you "stronger" in the Dark Side.

Darth Sidious told Anakin that only by slaughtering all the Jedi would he be strong enough in the Dark Side to be able to save Padme. So evil acts tend to develop Dark Side powers.

How Dark Side do you need to get before your eyes change color?

If Jedi/Sith powers are all about controlling the basic physical forces of the universe, then they should be able to walk thru walls. Solid objects are mainly empty space with some widely dispersed atoms. Just move your atoms inbetween the wall's atoms.

I think altering things on the atomic level would require too finely detailed manipulation. Note that spontaneous fire-starting--a typical telekinetic ability--is not something that we've ever seen Jedi or Sith do. I think that's because it requires finely detailed atomic manipulation that is beyond the observation of Jedi skills.

Theoretically, given enough time, will, and midi-chlorians, there is nothing one could not do with the Force.

Good thing Batman isn't a Jedi.

Weak Telepathy (communication of emotions only)

That reminds me - is there any canon take on how Leia realized Luke was in danger at the end of ESB? Would Luke have been able to communicate with anyone who wasn't a Force sensitive, or did he just wildly luck out that there was one in range who would bother to save him?

I think she's force sensitive would be the canon take on it.

But the question is: Suppose Leia was stuck in the carbonite and Han was on the ship. Han isn't Force sensitive (so far as I know). Would he have been able to detect Luke's pleas for help the way Leia did?

An ability that hasn't been mentioned yet is the ability to manipulate midichloreans to conceive children, even spontaneously creating a Y-chromosome. So far, supposedly only Darth Plagueis & Darth Sidious have known how to do this.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Force-lightning should be mentioned as a mostly Sith ability. Jedi presumably can do it too, but don't as it may be viewed as a Dark Side power, IMO.

Oh right, I forgot about that one. Does using dark side powers make a Jedi more vulnerable to the dark side? How about just committing evil acts in general?

I would think yes to both, IMO. I think Jedi Masters tend to warn their padawans very much against anything remotely connected to the Dark Side because of how seductive and easy it is. Even if you tap into it even once, only the strongest of Jedi might resist the temptation to use it ever again, especially during a fight.

So, extending that logic, wouldn't violence in and of itself be a danger to Jedi, moreso than eschewing violence altogether? Even if the violence is justified, or even in self-defense, it's still violence. Instead of forming a military-style organization, why not do everything in your power to avoid ever getting into a violence-prone situation?

What I mean is: why do the Jedi need to be Jedi at all? There's no cosmic law that says people who are Force sensitive must be fighters. Couldn't they have all decided to be artists instead? Telekinesis would be a wonderful thing for an acrobatic troupe.

But I'm sure they became fighters because being Force sensitive makes violence more attractive, and the added benefit of the Force to fighting far outweighs the added benefit to any other career path (except maybe medicine if the Jedi are really good at healing). But they're still using the Force to impose their will on others, so by picking up a lightsaber to begin with, every Jedi starts a little ways down the path to Sith-dom. Their compromise so far have been to stop somewhere on that path, but why go down the path at all?

Well I also know the answer to that question: because someone else will go down that path all the way, and if you're not on that path, too, you can't fight him.

 

[PsychoPere]

So, extending that logic, wouldn't violence in and of itself be a danger to Jedi, moreso than eschewing violence altogether? Even if the violence is justified, or even in self-defense, it's still violence. Instead of forming a military-style organization, why not do everything in your power to avoid ever getting into a violence-prone situation?

For the Jedi, violence is the last resort. They prefer peaceful measures to the use of the lightsaber. Remember that TPM opened with Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi being sent as ambassadors to discuss the Naboo blockade with Nute Gunray. A Jedi is prepared to do battle if necessary but would prefer to avoid it if possible.

What I mean is: why do the Jedi need to be Jedi at all? There's no cosmic law that says people who are Force sensitive must be fighters.

They have abilities that most people do not, abilities that could be used to serve peace and justice. The Jedi Order is large: everyone is trained to be able to defend him/herself and others, to enter into combat situations when necessary, but that doesn't mean that they don't spend peacetime doing other things. Diplomacy, agriculture... there are many areas in which a Jedi could serve.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Agriculture? Maybe Luke could go back to moisture farming.

 

[Silvercrest]

Maybe that's what they would have done with Anakin if they weren't going to train him.

Edit: Err, not moisture farming, but some peaceful occupation.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I didn't know that peaceful occupations were an option for Jedi, so this is all news to me. Since the Jedi were aware Anakin was a little nutso, why not relegate him to some job where he wouldn't be exposed to violence? He could have been great at designing and building droids! Or did the Jedi realize that his nuttiness might be an asset in a fighter, and didn't want to miss out on an opportunity?

The way I figured it, an untrained Anakin was the worst possible option, and that part of Jedi training is to teach Force sensitives how to cope with violent urges in socially responsible ways. (Which may be where lightsabers come in - a weapon deliberately designed to be fairly useless vs. a blaster except in the hands of a trained Force sensitive, requiring copious training to master, and generally able to kill only one person at a time. Lightsabers exist in order to force Jedi to become disciplined and focused. If the Jedi were all using blasters - a stupid-easy way to kill lots of people - they'd be more vulnerable to the Dark Side.)

If the options were train Anakin to fight or just kill him on the assumption that Sith-hood would be inevitable otherwise, then the Jedi don't come off so badly, compared with the option of simply getting him into some harmless occupation. If that was an option, then the Jedi are even more irresponsible than I've been thinking!

 

[fett51]

Maybe that's what they would have done with Anakin if they weren't going to train him.

Edit: Err, not moisture farming, but some peaceful occupation.

As a matter of fact, that's exactly what they do if you don't make the cut. You get brushed under the rug on some farm planet, or similar. A young jedi in one of the better clone wars novels who was not particularly strong in the force worked her butt off to avoid just that fate.

edit:

If the options were train Anakin to fight or just kill him on the assumption that Sith-hood would be inevitable otherwise, then the Jedi don't come off so badly, compared with the option of simply getting him into some harmless occupation. If that was an option, then the Jedi are even more irresponsible than I've been thinking!

You may remember from Episode I they were not going to train him at first. They changed their mind after they found out the Sith were loose in the galaxy again, even then Yoda made it perfectly clear the council had outvoted him on the matter.

 

[Admiral_Young]

The films never established what happens to Jedi who don't make the cut...that's an EU thing. The films told us that there are four phases that a Jedi goes through, the Younglings, Padawan Learners, Jedi Knights, and Jedi Masters. I know the Young Adult books postulated that Obi-Wan was discovered on some plantation project or somesuch and that Qui-Jon had an apprentice before him.

Yoda never revealed that the Council outvoted him...he simply stated that he didn't agree with Obi-Wan training Anakin. We know that Mace Windu doesn't exactly think highly of Anakin either. It's not actually explained why they changed their mind either.

I agree though that an untrained Anakin would have not been a welcomed alternative. He would have been screwed had Yoda not granted Obi-Wan permission to train him and no Qui-Jon to look after him.

 

[Skywalker]

That reminds me - is there any canon take on how Leia realized Luke was in danger at the end of ESB? Would Luke have been able to communicate with anyone who wasn't a Force sensitive, or did he just wildly luck out that there was one in range who would bother to save him?

I think she's force sensitive would be the canon take on it.

But the question is: Suppose Leia was stuck in the carbonite and Han was on the ship. Han isn't Force sensitive (so far as I know). Would he have been able to detect Luke's pleas for help the way Leia did?

Yes, because the Force exists within all (well, most) living beings. If Obi-Wan could manipulate the mind of a stormtrooper who's clearly not Force-sensitive, Luke could have contacted Han if he'd wanted to (and if he weren't, y'know, a meat popsicle at the time). The only difference is that Leia would have been able to respond to Luke through the Force, had she known how to do so.

The films never established what happens to Jedi who don't make the cut...that's an EU thing.

Which doesn't make a difference, because unlike in Star Trek, the Star Wars EU does count. The only times something in the EU doesn't count are if it's contradicted by the movies or TV show(s), or if it's explicitly stated to be non-canon (such as the Infinities line).

The EU doesn't "not count" just because people don't like what happens in it. Heck, I hated "The Crystal Star" and those horrible books starring Callista, but they still happened. Unless more movies are made, or until The Clone Wars or any other future TV show states otherwise, Jedi Younglings who never become Padawans are sent to work on farms or to perform other such menial jobs.

 

[fett51]

Yoda never revealed that the Council outvoted him...he simply stated that he didn't agree with Obi-Wan training Anakin. We know that Mace Windu doesn't exactly think highly of Anakin either. It's not actually explained why they changed their mind either.

You're right in saying I assumed a couple things there. It boils down to that I don't see a reason other than the Sith threat for the council to suddenly change their minds as they did after the battle of Naboo. As for the idea of Yoda being outvoted, he said he didn't want Anakin to be trained, but that the council agreed with Obi-wan. I took that as meaning he and presumably Mace Windu and whoever else had been outvoted.

 

[Admiral_Young]

It's possible I suppose that they saw Anakin's potential after hearing or reading Obi-Wan's report on the Battle of Naboo and his actions regarding the destruction of the control station. Perhaps he gave a line like "No mere twelve year old could accomplish an action like that, masters. Anakin's ability with the Force can not be denied, he needs guidance and training that only the Order can provide him with. I beg the Council review his case again and grant me permission to train him. With the Sith lurking in the galaxy again...he could perhaps prove valuable."

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Yoda never revealed that the Council outvoted him...he simply stated that he didn't agree with Obi-Wan training Anakin. We know that Mace Windu doesn't exactly think highly of Anakin either. It's not actually explained why they changed their mind either.

You're right in saying I assumed a couple things there. It boils down to that I don't see a reason other than the Sith threat for the council to suddenly change their minds as they did after the battle of Naboo. As for the idea of Yoda being outvoted, he said he didn't want Anakin to be trained, but that the council agreed with Obi-wan. I took that as meaning he and presumably Mace Windu and whoever else had been outvoted.

This plot twist would have been far more plausible if Anakin had been more convincingly presented as someone who could make a serious contribution to the war effort through his intelligence, strategic acumen, daring and leadership skills. The movies completely failed to convey this idea, but Clone Wars seems to be setting up this concept (even in the small amount of episodes I've seen so far) by having Anakin display genuine leadership skills that make him popular with the troops.

 

[Admiral_Young]

^ This is an aspect of his character in the show I like. They see that he's willing to do what is necessary to win the war and he's shown loyalty to the them. As stated somewhere earlier or in another thread, Vader just sees them as disposable.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

So how do we get from Anakin who is loyal to his men, to Vader who throws them away like rag dolls? There may be a way for a writer to pull that off - it won't be easy - but I'll hang in there long enough to see if it can be done. Any writer who can bridge that gap believably has my admiration.

 

[Fist McStrongpunch]

Vader still has respect for people who are competent and earn their position, hence the working man's officer Piett being the only guy to fail Vader and live. He had no use for the incompetent and those who got their position through connections, such as Admiral Ozzel.

 

[Admiral_Young]

^ Yep agree with this and as I stated in the clone wars premire thread we'll be seeing more of Anakin's descendant to the Dark Side this season.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

This plot twist would have been far more plausible if Anakin had been more convincingly presented as someone who could make a serious contribution to the war effort through his intelligence, strategic acumen, daring and leadership skills. The movies completely failed to convey this idea...

I don't think that's entirely fair. We only see the very beginning and very ending of the Clone Wars in the films. Obviously he can't have built respect and a reputation with clone troopers he'd never met until the end of the second film or be a war hero when the war just started. But even in AotC he came up with some tactics that Obi-Wan said were clever, like shooting above the fuel pods on the enemy ships; destroying the ships and causing the pods to fall on all the disembarking battle droids and vehicles.

By RotS he was clearly a well-respected leader in the eyes of the clone troopers, addressing them on a first name (well, nickname) basis and being willing to go back for them and not treat them as just cannon fodder. And again it was his tactics and not Obi-Wan's that got them through the gauntlet and on to Grevious' ship. All Obi-Wan did was get hit while Anakin escaped the missiles and saved his ass, get his ass kicked by Dooku twice while Anakin killed Dooku, get carried up an elevator shaft, sit back while Anakin landed the broken ship and saved them, and complain about everything Anakin did.

So how do we get from Anakin who is loyal to his men, to Vader who throws them away like rag dolls? There may be a way for a writer to pull that off - it won't be easy - but I'll hang in there long enough to see if it can be done. Any writer who can bridge that gap believably has my admiration.

Vader is an angry, bitter, broken man full of loss and regret that is subservient to a man he hates by the time of the OT. He punishes failure in his men because he himself failed in his one overriding mission to protect his wife.

 

[Mr Light]

So how do we get from Anakin who is loyal to his men, to Vader who throws them away like rag dolls?

Going by the novels, Vader is still intensely loyal to ground troops. It's the spoiled admiralty who throw his troops' lives away needlessly that he takes delight in crushing.

 

[Admiral_Young]

@Skywalker...I wasn't dismissing the EU...I was simply stating the fact that we never saw on film what exactly happens with that particular subject.