Jedi powers

[Skywalker]

@Skywalker...I wasn't dismissing the EU...I was simply stating the fact that we never saw on film what exactly happens with that particular subject.

Yeah, sorry about that, it was late and I was really tired and grumpy.

 

[zakkrusz]

- The power to ignore obvious threats right in front of your face: Force-Blindness.
- The power to claim the moral high ground while using cloned slaves with shortened lifespans as cannon fodder and manipulating weak-minded people to do your bidding: Force-Hypocrisy.
- The power to unknowingly use an absolute to criticize a group for being the only ones to deal in absolutes: Force-Ignorance.
- The power to think that intentionally bringing all of your warriors into the middle of an arena ringed with bad guys is a good battle tactic: Force-Custer.
- The power to be endlessly condescending, to frequently lie to in order to manipulate, and to be openly fearful of your trainees: Force-Douchebaggery.
- The power to think it's healthy to tell someone they shouldn't worry or be sad about the death of the people they love: Force-Sociopathy.

Pretty much. That's why the purge was neccessary.

 

[David cgc]

I think she's force sensitive would be the canon take on it.

But the question is: Suppose Leia was stuck in the carbonite and Han was on the ship. Han isn't Force sensitive (so far as I know). Would he have been able to detect Luke's pleas for help the way Leia did?

Yes, because the Force exists within all (well, most) living beings. If Obi-Wan could manipulate the mind of a stormtrooper who's clearly not Force-sensitive, Luke could have contacted Han if he'd wanted to (and if he weren't, y'know, a meat popsicle at the time). The only difference is that Leia would have been able to respond to Luke through the Force, had she known how to do.so.

I always assumed that it was the familial connection that made it possible. Or, at the very least, easier. Moreso than any Force sensitivities Leia had.

 

[Skywalker]

Yeah, I'm sure it did make it easier. Luke got lucky there.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

This plot twist would have been far more plausible if Anakin had been more convincingly presented as someone who could make a serious contribution to the war effort through his intelligence, strategic acumen, daring and leadership skills. The movies completely failed to convey this idea...

I don't think that's entirely fair. We only see the very beginning and very ending of the Clone Wars in the films. Obviously he can't have built respect and a reputation with clone troopers he'd never met until the end of the second film or be a war hero when the war just started. But even in AotC he came up with some tactics that Obi-Wan said were clever, like shooting above the fuel pods on the enemy ships; destroying the ships and causing the pods to fall on all the disembarking battle droids and vehicles.

By RotS he was clearly a well-respected leader in the eyes of the clone troopers, addressing them on a first name (well, nickname) basis and being willing to go back for them and not treat them as just cannon fodder. And again it was his tactics and not Obi-Wan's that got them through the gauntlet and on to Grevious' ship. All Obi-Wan did was get hit while Anakin escaped the missiles and saved his ass, get his ass kicked by Dooku twice while Anakin killed Dooku, get carried up an elevator shaft, sit back while Anakin landed the broken ship and saved them, and complain about everything Anakin did.

So how do we get from Anakin who is loyal to his men, to Vader who throws them away like rag dolls? There may be a way for a writer to pull that off - it won't be easy - but I'll hang in there long enough to see if it can be done. Any writer who can bridge that gap believably has my admiration.

Vader is an angry, bitter, broken man full of loss and regret that is subservient to a man he hates by the time of the OT. He punishes failure in his men because he himself failed in his one overriding mission to protect his wife.

For that rationalization to work would take a whoooole lot of reading between the lines of how Vader acts in the OT. He doesn't come off as a conflicted, tormented soul. He comes off as a badass who likes throwing his weight around and blowing up planets, and isn't conflicted in the least.

And if we don't actually see a convincing portrait of Anakin, The Great, Popular Military Leader in the PT, then Lucas spent too much time on unnecessary twaddle and shortchanged the stuff he needed to show. Really, all the PT needed to do was to establish Anakin as

-the golden boy, great military leader, smart, courageous, with the stature to deserve a story being told about him
-someone who would earn the respect and love of smart people like Obi-Wan and Padme
-yet also someone who would plausibly fall to the dark side

That's not an easy task there, but with three movies to work with, if Lucas had buckled down and focused on delivering the elements he needed to deliver, instead of being sidetracked by crap like pod races and Jar-Jar, he might have had a chance to pull it off.

Instead, Lucas just dicked around and didn't even come close to delivering the story elements he needed to, so that by the time we got to the big battle on Mustafar, the whole thing fell completely flat. I didn't believe that a) Obi-Wan and Anakin had ever been friends or had the least little thing in common to make them friends; b) Anakin was a character worthy of having a story written about him (and certainly not deserving of an epic story); and c) Anakin had any relationship to that Darth Vader guy I saw in those other three movies.

It's fun to play the retcon game of rationalizing away bad writing by filling in the blanks, but it's not our job. We paid our money, we should just get to kick back and enjoy the story. Why should I have to do the writers' job for him? I'm not getting paid!

By RotS he was clearly a well-respected leader in the eyes of the clone troopers, addressing them on a first name (well, nickname) basis and being willing to go back for them and not treat them as just cannon fodder.

There may have been some dialogue to that effect, but there weren't any scenes that convinced me that that whiny punk could earn a hardened clone trooper's respect. More likely, they would be sniggering behind his back. To sell something like that requires effort and imagination on the writers' part. He can't just say "that's how it is," and have the audience accept it. The first rule of drama is: show, not tell. Lucas didn't show shit.

But rather than continuing to rant my head off about this maybe I should pop in my next Clone Wars DVD and continue to explore whether this Dave Filoni guy can pull off the transition more plausibly.

 

[DWF]

Darth Vader certainly felt conflicted to me in the OT for a man willing to kill his own offiers he defies the Emperor when he orders Vader to kill Luke.

Darth Vader: [kneeling before Emperor Palpatine's hologram] What is thy bidding, my master?Emperor Palpatine (Hologram): There is a great disturbance in the Force.Vader: I have felt it.Emperor: We have a new enemy, the young Rebel who destroyed the Death Star. I have no doubt that this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker.Vader: How is that possible?Emperor: Search your feelings, Lord Vader. You know it to be true. [pauses] He could destroy us.Vader: He's just a boy. Obi-Wan can no longer help him.Emperor: The Force is strong with him. The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi.Vader: If he could be turned, he would become a powerful ally.Emperor: [intrigued] Yes... He would be a great asset. Can it be done?Vader: He will join us or die, master.

And here Luke talks about Vader's internal conflict.

Vader: The Emperor has been expecting you.Luke: I know... father.Vader: So, you have accepted the truth?Luke: I've accepted the truth that you were once Anakin Skywalker, my father.Vader: That name no longer has any meaning for me!Luke: It is the name of your true self. You've only forgotten. I know there is good in you. The Emperor hasn't driven it from you fully. [steps off to the side of the passageway, away from Vader] That was why you couldn't destroy me. That's why you won't bring me to your Emperor now.Vader: [inspects Luke's lightsaber] I see you have constructed a new lightsaber. Your skills are complete. Indeed you are powerful, as the Emperor has foreseen. [turns off the lightsaber again]Luke: Come with me!Vader: Obi-Wan once thought as you do. You don't know the power of the dark side! I must obey my master.Luke: I will not turn. And you'll be forced to kill me.Vader: If that is your destiny.Luke: Search your feelings, father. You can't do this. I feel the conflict within you! Let go of your hate!Vader: It is... too late for me, son. The Emperor will show you the true nature of the Force. He is your master now.Luke: [resigned] Then my father is truly dead.

 

[Admiral_Young]

^Rare great Star Wars dialogue in both those examples.