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Pre-TOS Science Vessel

Okay, I need to clear up a misunderstanding here. I said earlier that the large doors on the underside of the fairings were for the large HLV to enter and exit, so it does not rise through the upper shuttle bay and leave through the upper doors. The only reason the false floor opens up is for maintenance of the the Horus and so it can load cargo through the nose if necessary. Furthermore, there are redundant bays, one in each fairing. Even when the ship is servicing a Horus in one bay, the other bay is available for Type II shuttle traffic.

Furthermore these are my assumptions in designing the Horus-Gryphon system:
1.) Transporters are either too unreliable or considered unreliable by most people in the 2180's. Rightly or wrongly, Starfleet brass distrust the system and did not design the ship around it.

2.) Most outposts and minor powers at this point do not have improved spaceports, which means neither orbital facilities nor space elevators. The only way to get bulk materiel up to orbit is with an HLV, and it is too risky to assume that capability already exists on site. Hence you must carry your own ship.

3.) Very small warp engines are fairly new but better understood and trusted than transporters and Horus is about as small as they come. If I had to choose between a sublight-only bulk carrier with a negligibly larger amount of cargo, or being able to make a supply run across several light years in Horus, I'd choose the warp capable one.

4.) Gryphon operates as part of a fleet which is typically distributed over several sectors of space with the fleet tenders a sector or two behind the science ships. Horus is Gryphon's lifeline to that fleet. In the event that Gryphon cannot procure something herself, she can send out a Horus to go get it from the main fleet and not have to delay by running back herself.

5.) Surveying a star system is a far more difficult task than is generally assumed, especially if that system has several worlds supporting an ecosystem. Weeks before entering a system, Gryphon identifies interesting targets with her subspace sensors and then sends survey teams ahead to land on those worlds. Horus drops off laboratory modules and survey teams on the target worlds and can either run back to Gryphon or remain on station to move the survey team on demand. In the meantime, Gryphon can focus on what she does best: astronomical surveys. This way, Gryphon doesn't need to remain on station for weeks running shuttles up and down.

6.) Gryphon is designed around the concept of "defense in depth". The ship follows Jefferies' original concept of the warp nacelles being self-contained power units, so each one has its own warp core. In the event one core fails and is ejected, the ship can limp to safety on the power of the other. If both fail and the escape pods and Type II shuttles are out of range of an M-class world, the two Horus' can carry the entire compliment back to the fleet or to a system with a safe haven.

7.) The impact on the main ship's cargo capacity is negligible as there is no need to carry enough bulk material for the entire multi-year mission. As she is, Gryphon carries enough supplies to support her crew for a year without resupply and eliminating the HLV's would not necessarily mean the space would be used for more consumables. Bulk consumables are stored in tanks above and below the main deck in the saucer. If the ship is ever isolated from the fleet, the ship's onboard recycling centers can extend the water supply indefinitely and it's easy enough to bring a load of hydrocarbons or food items to the ship from a planetary surface when food supplies are running low.

In short from a 23rd or 24th century standpoint where transporters are common and ships go out completely alone, Horus wouldn't make sense, but in the 22nd century it is far better to have and not need than to need and not have.
 
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I think it may be easier for you to write a need for the ship than to change the model or discard a shuttle you've made. I am well aware of what a pain in the ass that is. :)

I'm still calling you on it though. It's a long range survey vessel, designed to stay out by itself for ages if need be. It has communications and a distributed fleet which will eventually come looking for it when they do not report in as usual. No need to bring its own tow-truck, and it should not be out there in the first place if its unreliable.

If you have more storage space you dont need to replenish so often anyway, negating the need for a lot of port visits when you job is to be miles away from port. That might be long-range probes and other consumables, not just bulk food stores. If you do need to replenish at a more austere facility, you have plenty of smaller shuttles and transporters, which I think they would risk on tins of beans. I cant envision a space port or space station on a contacted planet which cant handle basic cargo transfers to orbit. If you're also now saying that you have large doors above and below the large doors in the floor and the doors at the back, I'd say you have a definite hull weakness around that area.

Why not lose the Horus and have a normal starship? Enlarge the Horus slightly and you have a fleet auxiliary, part of the logistics support system keeping ships supplied on the frontier. Let cargo haulers keep the ships resupplied and let the starships get on with their jobs. Why build cargo ships only to keep them in a science vessel for occasional use, when they could be working 24/7 resupplying the entire fleet?

I know you'll end up either flat out ignoring us or inventing more reasons to not change anything on the ship, but you've got to admit we're talking sense.
 
Doesn't your number 4 negate most of the need for having the Horus stationed on the Gryphon? Wouldn't it make more sense to have the Horus stationed with a fleet tender only to be called by the Gryphon as needed?
 
Doesn't your number 4 negate most of the need for having the Horus stationed on the Gryphon? Wouldn't it make more sense to have the Horus stationed with a fleet tender only to be called by the Gryphon as needed?

And what happens when the fleet or the ship needs to observe subspace radio silence? This fleet is moving along the border with the Klingons early in its mission and as capable as Gryphon is she is no match for a battle cruiser and would struggle against a contemporary bird of prey.

During this portion of the journey I reasoned that the science ships would keep to a schedule and know which system the tenders would be in at a certain time, sending reports and bringing back orders in person rather than broadcasting their location via subspace. Horus has a very small warp signature, so it can slip in and out of trouble much better than the larger ships can.

This is getting a little more into the ship's backstory than I wanted at this point, but she was designed for the Orion Expedition which was Starfleet's first big push beyond the Federation frontier. The goal is to visit the stars of Orion all the way out to the Trapezium in the Orion Nebula. Remember Mintaka from Who Watches the Watchers? Or Rigel from The Cage? Even during TOS those seemed like pretty underdeveloped places. How is the crew going to land a duckblind to watch the Mintakans? How are they going to get away when the Rigelians attack their bio-survey outpost?
 
During this portion of the journey I reasoned that the science ships would keep to a schedule and know which system the tenders would be in at a certain time, sending reports and bringing back orders in person rather than broadcasting their location via subspace. Horus has a very small warp signature, so it can slip in and out of trouble much better than the larger ships can.

Can't this still be done with the Horus based at the tenders?

If the Gryphon is "keeping to a schedule"?
 
And the science ships are most likely to need to veer off from that schedule to investigate unexpected phenomena or have to run and hide in case an enemy bird of prey shows up. And having Gryphon run back isn't a very good option because the warp signature is big enough to track and could lead the Klingons right to the fleet. Horus on the other hand is small, and thus easily lost in the subspace background. Klingon raiders look for big scores and would be used to dismissing intermittent blips on their scopes as artifacts or interference.

Look, I already said that I didn't want to get mired in a discussion about this. I didn't just invent Horus on a whim. I thought about the problems that would face explorers in this situation and about the types of equipment they would want to have available.
 
I'm trying to rectify the stubbyness of the deflector pod. Here I've stretched it and tried moving it forward by nine meters. Here is an alternative moved only six meters back.

I'm trying to maintain a somewhat staggered arrangement between the rear ends of the pod, fairings, and nacelles which I feel gives the ship a sense of motion despite being kind of blocky. I think the nine meter displacement looks a little more balanced than the six but I'm open to other possibilities.

And the bridge is pretty much done. The geometry anyway.

Looking aft

Towards tactical

Lighting ring and sensor dome equipment
 
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