The TIE Fighter Pilot who Helped the Rebellion.

[SeerSGB]

Hey what happened to this thread? It started out as a joke about an extremely minor SW character and now it's gotten interesting!!!

My personal hope before the other two prequels played out was that Anakin was not conceived by the midichlorians at all, but at some point in her life as a slave on Tatooine Schmi was rendered unconscious and artificially inseminated with Palpatine's Sith-Sperm to give birth to a child that would fool the Jedi into believing the prophecy had been fulfilled so Palpatine could use that to his advantage in destroying them (because he had foreseen Anakin's eventual discovery by the Jedi) and to give him more time to find the true Chosen One himself.

Hmm, not sure about all that. I have no issue at all with SW delving into adult issues like rape - far preferable to Lucas' tendency to keep everything boring and sanitized for the kiddies (insisting that the bad guys in the Clone Wars must be disposable robots so the noble Jedi won't have to slaughter humanoids, I guess Luke blowing up a bunch of hapless Empire draftees in the Death Star doesn't count) - but I prefer SW to hang onto as much mystery as possible. For Anakin to literally have no father is weird and I like it. Some things should be left unexplained.

I like the idea that the Force has its own agenda in all this. It wanted Anakin to be a Sith, and that was the intent all along. It's not the Force's fault that the Jedi are pigheaded and insist on interpreting "balance in the Force" in an utterly self-serving way, meaning all Jedi and no Sith. Interesting definition of "balance" there. If the Jedi hadn't been such power-hungry, self-deluded fools, they would have killed Anakin on sight and saved everyone a lot of trouble (not that that would have been anything more than a minor speedbump for the Force).

While the OT has its faults, the PT is just unremittingly morally retarded--the subjects of slavery, genocide spousal abuse, and child murder are employed just as terribly, and just as offensively, as the subject of rape.

The PT was just retarded in every way, but you're right that it demonstrated the morality of a womp-rat. For instance, it still gets me that the high and mighty Jedi saw nothing wrong with taking a bunch of poor clones and turning them into cannon fodder just because it was convenient. Blergh. When the clones were ordered to slaughter the Jedi, I cheered. Take that, you priggish elitist hypocrites! Maybe not the reaction Lucas was going for...

I agree with most of this (Anakin should have been at least 16 or 17 in the first movie, he should have been a smart, charming, funny guy, and a widely admired war hero) but you've set up a situation that I think is beyond the powers of any writer to pull off (unless you have something in mind that you can describe?)

A perfect guy just isn't going to turn into a monster who blows up planets. Anakin has got to have one fatal flaw that will set up his fall. He can be perfect in all other ways, and we can love him for it, but the flaw has to be there from the first or the fall is implausible.

I think it should be very simple - lust for power, maybe because he's impatient with the inefficiency of democracy (I can't reconcile the idea that Anakin cares about the Republic politically with his destruction of it) and thinks everyone would be better off if they just gave all the power to him and Palps, combined with the fact that the dark side is just flat-out more fun, probably a lot like a drug, and the Jedi are a bunch of boring old nannies that he's thoroughly sick of, plus it wouldn't have hurt if Lucas would have acknowledged the hypocrisy of the Jedi more directly. Why not overthrow and slaughter them, since they don't live up to their own so-called ideals? Easy to rationalize.

The problem wasn't that it wasn't a surprise (that horse left the barn decades ago ) but that the tragic story of a whiny punk isn't worth bothering with. The tragic story of a great guy, a real golden boy who had just that one fatal flaw, that's something else entirely.

...

Oddly enough, I think "The Killing Joke" has the best ideal of how I always saw Anakin's fall: ""All it takes is one bad day to reduce the sanest man alive to lunacy."

That sort of sums of the whole ideal: Anakin was a good man. Maybe not Jesus/the "chosen one", but a good honest man. Then something just went horribly, tragically, wrong. He was fighting in a war, it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility that some one he loved was killed in a battle, or he thought the kids were killed, etc, etc. And he just says "fuck it" and turns on...well every one cause the way he sees they all were at fault.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

So when you now see Vader int he OT you don't see this once great man corrupted by evil you see a bitch-ass punk complaining about sand.

I've got the perfect solution: watch Clone Wars, which is busy rewriting Anakin to be the golden boy/war hero that we wanted all along. The trouble with him (and I've only watched the first disk of S1 so far, so maybe this gets handled) is that I'm not seeing any fatal flaw that can lead to planet-blowing-up in his future. A bit cocky and risk-taking, sure, but nothing too untoward, more like charming. Dunno how Tarakovsky plans to pull off the transition...

Well I think one begins to show up in season 2

 

[PsychoPere]

I've got the perfect solution: watch Clone Wars, which is busy rewriting Anakin to be the golden boy/war hero that we wanted all along. The trouble with him (and I've only watched the first disk of S1 so far, so maybe this gets handled) is that I'm not seeing any fatal flaw that can lead to planet-blowing-up in his future. A bit cocky and risk-taking, sure, but nothing too untoward, more like charming. Dunno how Tarakovsky plans to pull off the transition...

You're watching the CGI series, correct? Tartakovsky was in charge of the traditional animation "microseries." Dave Filoni supervises the current, CGI series.

 

[Trekker4747]

Since the force is controlled by midichlorians (or whatever) you'd think a (some) drugs would've reduced his levels to make Anakin no longer force sensitive.

Not sure it would work that way. People think of midichlorians as some kind of infectious microbe, but that's overlooking the mitochondria analogy. Mitochondria are genetically distinct, and it's believed they were originally independent life forms that developed a symbiotic relationship with single-celled life forms, but they aren't separate anymore; they're an integral part of every cell in the body. You can't kill them off without killing the cells they occupy. And Obi-Wan did say that life itself wouldn't exist without midichlorians, suggesting they play a metabolic role similar to mitochondria as well as providing a Force interface. After all, again, Lucas was building on an Eastern philosophical approach in which the biological and the spiritual are facets of the same thing, rather than a Western approach where base biology is entirely separate from the intangible spirit.

(Which is why it's not a question of "controlling" the Force. You don't control it, you connect with it, connect to other things through it.)

Some people might say life cannot exist without God and they may be just as "right" as Qui-Gon was in his statement. I.E. He could've been speaking metaphorically. I don't think your mitochondira analogy works because that exists in every cell of the body, the "midichlorians" are said to be in different levels in everyone, the more you have the more you can use the force (a certain level needed to even get basic force powers.) So it seems more analogous to a parasite or some other component that's different in everyone.

And, really, that there'd be any biological component is just plain dumb it was answering a question no one was asking. The way Obi-Won explains The Force in the Ep:4 works a lot more The Force was treated as much more of a religion then and one could be "more in tune" with it/stronger in it than others, meaning some were "more spiritual" and some used those powers more for good or bad. It's more like, well, witchcraft (as portrayed in fiction) the more "spiritual" you are the "stronger" you are in magic and you can use that magic for good or evil. So, some witches send teenage girls on nice little walks across the country along roads and other witches eat children lost in the woods. Both have magic and, at that, different magical powers.

But it doesn't work for me that The Force is something biological, it was supposed to be spiritual, but, now, Yoda wasn't such an awesome Force master that, as such a tiny creature, he could lift an X-Wing with his mind, nope. He just had good DNA.

 

[I Grok Spock]

I think it should be very simple - lust for power, maybe because he's impatient with the inefficiency of democracy (I can't reconcile the idea that Anakin cares about the Republic politically with his destruction of it) and thinks everyone would be better off if they just gave all the power to him and Palps, combined with the fact that the dark side is just flat-out more fun, probably a lot like a drug, and the Jedi are a bunch of boring old nannies that he's thoroughly sick of, plus it wouldn't have hurt if Lucas would have acknowledged the hypocrisy of the Jedi more directly. Why not overthrow and slaughter them, since they don't live up to their own so-called ideals? Easy to rationalize.

I've also thought that the corruption of the Dark Side should have been portrayed akin to drug addiction. But less that it's "fun" and more that Anakin faced a challenge he couldn't overcome and risked drawing on the Dark Side because he thought he wouldn't fall. Sort of mirroring Luke's freak out in ROTJ, but he doesn't turn away at the last minute. Eventually it "comes to dominate his destiny."

I guess Lucas sort of tried to show a bit of this but it's too sparse and disjointed in the films. Anger should have been a part of his fall, but I would have liked to see some voluntary decision on his part. As it is Anakin just comes across as an easily manipulated punk with absolutely no control of himself or his destiny.

 

[Christopher]

Some people might say life cannot exist without God and they may be just as "right" as Qui-Gon was in his statement. I.E. He could've been speaking metaphorically. I don't think your mitochondira analogy works because that exists in every cell of the body, the "midichlorians" are said to be in different levels in everyone, the more you have the more you can use the force (a certain level needed to even get basic force powers.) So it seems more analogous to a parasite or some other component that's different in everyone.

It's not my analogy. It's obvious from the name "midichlorian," and from the similarities in the description, that George Lucas himself was making an intentional analogy with mitochondria. There's no way it could be a coincidence. And it therefore follows that he intended Qui-Gon's statement to be literally true, not just metaphorically.

And, really, that there'd be any biological component is just plain dumb it was answering a question no one was asking. The way Obi-Won explains The Force in the Ep:4 works a lot more The Force was treated as much more of a religion then and one could be "more in tune" with it/stronger in it than others, meaning some were "more spiritual" and some used those powers more for good or bad.

Of course there's a biological component. That's been explicit from the very first time Alec Guinness intoned the following words:

"The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together."

An energy field created by all living things. The very origin of the Force is explicitly biological. It's not, has never been, something separate from or external to life. It's a consequence of life.

Sure, one can raise questions about the compatibility of that explanation with Qui-Gon's explanation. But it's wrong to say that the original conception of the Force was non-biological.

You seem to be using "biological" in a strictly physical sense and treating that as something separate from and incompatible with the spiritual. As I've already pointed out, that kind of dualistic thinking arises from Western philosophy, whereas Lucas has always based the Force on Eastern philosophy, in which that segregation of the physical from the spiritual simply does not exist. You need to try to recognize that just because a concept is outside your personal experience or preconceptions, that doesn't make it "dumb." Just different. And it's worth the effort to open your mind to concepts that are new and different.

 

[Trekker4747]

It's not my analogy. It's obvious from the name "midichlorian," and from the similarities in the description, that George Lucas himself was making an intentional analogy with mitochondria. There's no way it could be a coincidence. And it therefore follows that he intended Qui-Gon's statement to be literally true, not just metaphorically.

George Lucas also had poop and fart jokes in the same movie, so...

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Even if midichloreans are neccessary to life and can't be killed, I'd think they could still be somehow controlled to limit a person's knowledge of the Force. Most likely, it would involve either drugging him to the point where he's practically a vegetable or lobotomizing him (which is how they stopped irrepressible criminals from jaunting out of prison in The Stars My Destination).

In defense of Padme in AOTC, they do say in that movie that the Sand People are like animals and not humans, so for all she knew they were beast creatures and not sentient humanoids. We know they can shoot a gun but what else do we know? I'm not talking EU knowledge here just what's in the movies. We've only seen them killing and raping and pillaging in ANH and AOTC, and murdering passing by podracers and laughing about it in TPM.

From 'The Phantom Menace' podrace she knew that they owned and could use firearms, wore clothing, and organized sniper ambushes on podracers (probably to scavenge materials from the crashes). What non-sentient animal could do that? Furthermore, Anakin described his victims as being "not only the men, but the women and children," which is a rather unusual choice of wording to describe non-sentient animals.

These women & children were part of a clan & culture that abducted Shmi Skywalker for no good reason. That makes them culpable accessories to her abduction and makes the entire tribe seem savage, regardless of their sophisticated methods. (They kinda remind me of Reavers from Serenity in that respect.)

And Padme might be able to relate to Anakin more than you realize. I wonder how often she's fantasized about carving up Nute Gunray like a high schooler disecting a frog.

In Padme's case, it's only implied, and then maybe by accident (although it explains a lot about her character), that Anakin is using the Force to influence her actions. It's a much more interesting set of films with that reading (not actually interesting, mind), but I'll concede that there are others (most of which, however, fail to explain Padme acts like a robot). True: the Force-choke thing is not in the same category, and potentially not misogynistic in scope.

I was never under the impression that Anakin was ever using mind tricks to manipulate Padme's behavior. I always figured she was just an idiot. Isn't marrying a Dark Lord of the Sith one of Dr. Laura's "10 Stupid Things Women Do to Mess Up Their Lives"?

And, really, that there'd be any biological component is just plain dumb it was answering a question no one was asking. The way Obi-Won explains The Force in the Ep:4 works a lot more The Force was treated as much more of a religion then and one could be "more in tune" with it/stronger in it than others, meaning some were "more spiritual" and some used those powers more for good or bad.

Of course there's a biological component. That's been explicit from the very first time Alec Guinness intoned the following words:

"The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together."

An energy field created by all living things. The very origin of the Force is explicitly biological. It's not, has never been, something separate from or external to life. It's a consequence of life.

And I'd note that the Force seems like a much vaguer, more organic force in A New Hope than it does in later films. It mostly allows its user a greater awareness of the surrounding world. It's how Obi-Wan sensed the destruction of Alderaan, Darth Vader sensed the presence of Obi-Wan on the Death Star, and how Luke could fire the proton torpedoes directly into the exhaust port without the aid of a targeting computer. The only really funky thing that happened there was when Obi-Wan disappeared when he died and then gave post-mortem advice to Luke. Telekinesis wasn't established as a Force power until The Empire Strikes Back.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

I think it should be very simple - lust for power, maybe because he's impatient with the inefficiency of democracy (I can't reconcile the idea that Anakin cares about the Republic politically with his destruction of it) and thinks everyone would be better off if they just gave all the power to him and Palps, combined with the fact that the dark side is just flat-out more fun, probably a lot like a drug, and the Jedi are a bunch of boring old nannies that he's thoroughly sick of, plus it wouldn't have hurt if Lucas would have acknowledged the hypocrisy of the Jedi more directly. Why not overthrow and slaughter them, since they don't live up to their own so-called ideals? Easy to rationalize.

I've also thought that the corruption of the Dark Side should have been portrayed akin to drug addiction. But less that it's "fun" and more that Anakin faced a challenge he couldn't overcome and risked drawing on the Dark Side because he thought he wouldn't fall. Sort of mirroring Luke's freak out in ROTJ, but he doesn't turn away at the last minute. Eventually it "comes to dominate his destiny."

I guess Lucas sort of tried to show a bit of this but it's too sparse and disjointed in the films. Anger should have been a part of his fall, but I would have liked to see some voluntary decision on his part. As it is Anakin just comes across as an easily manipulated punk with absolutely no control of himself or his destiny.

This may sound a bit weird, but I always figured Anakin's fall should have been closely modeled after that of Riker in "Hide and Q." Not that Riker's temptation, "fall," and "redemption" happened seamlessly, but they also tried to accomplish all of that within 45 minutes of screen time, whereas Lucas had three full feature length films to establish the character, provide the temptation and execute the fall.

 

[Silvercrest]

Isn't marrying a Dark Lord of the Sith one of Dr. Laura's "10 Stupid Things Women Do to Mess Up Their Lives"?

Probably, but that means there are definitely more than two Sith, and I know some of them personally!

 

[Christopher]

It's not my analogy. It's obvious from the name "midichlorian," and from the similarities in the description, that George Lucas himself was making an intentional analogy with mitochondria. There's no way it could be a coincidence. And it therefore follows that he intended Qui-Gon's statement to be literally true, not just metaphorically.

George Lucas also had poop and fart jokes in the same movie, so...

Ah. Clearly I was laboring under the misapprehension that you were remotely interested in an intelligent discussion of the topic.

 

[Trekker4747]

It's not my analogy. It's obvious from the name "midichlorian," and from the similarities in the description, that George Lucas himself was making an intentional analogy with mitochondria. There's no way it could be a coincidence. And it therefore follows that he intended Qui-Gon's statement to be literally true, not just metaphorically.

George Lucas also had poop and fart jokes in the same movie, so...

Ah. Clearly I was laboring under the misapprehension that you were remotely interested in an intelligent discussion of the topic.

I'm willing to, but you and I obviously have different opinions on this matter. I also doubt Lucas put any deep thought into how he wanted to analogize The Force with mitochondria and midichlorians, IIRC he wrote the script pretty much a couple months before they started filming. I think he just wanted to "explain" the force, picked two words, crammed them together, slapped on a suffix and said "they make the force."

I prefer to believe The Force is more mystical and magical than it is "created" by any component of biological life and that Qui-Gon was speaking abstractly. I also think "explaining" the force with the midichlorians is lame and trying to answer an question no one was asking.

I agree to disagree.

 

[PsychoPere]

[...] IIRC he wrote the script pretty much a couple months before they started filming. [...]

Lucas began writing the first draft of The Phantom Menace, then titled Star Wars: Episode I - The Beginning, in November 1994. Filming began June 26, 1997.

 

[Trekker4747]

Ok, two-and-a-half years. A... 'decent" length of time to write a screenplay. Still, I doubt he was putting that much thought into the script to explain The Force in such a manner. Because it's a bit silly that he'd put that much thought into explaining The Force but not as much thought into, say, the dialogue, the characters, the "humor", etc. But, no, explaining the Force by naming a component of SW biology something similar to real-world biology, that he nailed.

 

[Christopher]

I also doubt Lucas put any deep thought into how he wanted to analogize The Force with mitochondria and midichlorians, IIRC he wrote the script pretty much a couple months before they started filming. I think he just wanted to "explain" the force, picked two words, crammed them together, slapped on a suffix and said "they make the force."

That makes no sense. Mitochondrion. Midichlorian. Same number of syllables. Almost the same number of letters. 2/3 of the letters in common. Very similar pronunciations. And as I've said, the analogy between the functions played by the two is very strong. It's hardly intelligent to dismiss all that evidence. And it's even less intelligent to respond to it by merely making a childish scatological comment about George Lucas. You're not willing to listen, you just want to attack Lucas. And that's not intelligent debate. So why am I wasting my time here?

 

[Trekker4747]

I also doubt Lucas put any deep thought into how he wanted to analogize The Force with mitochondria and midichlorians, IIRC he wrote the script pretty much a couple months before they started filming. I think he just wanted to "explain" the force, picked two words, crammed them together, slapped on a suffix and said "they make the force."

That makes no sense. Mitochondrion. Midichlorian. Same number of syllables. Almost the same number of letters. 2/3 of the letters in common. Very similar pronunciations. And as I've said, the analogy between the functions played by the two is very strong. It's hardly intelligent to dismiss all that evidence. And it's even less intelligent to respond to it by merely making a childish scatological comment about George Lucas. You're not willing to listen, you just want to attack Lucas. And that's not intelligent debate. So why am I wasting my time here?

Because, first of all, I'd hope you would know me a bit better than that.

In my humble opinion, you're drawing connections, after the fact, from what you're seeing. Similar to how people interpret Nostradamus writings. You're seeing the same syllables, pronunciations, etc.

I, personally, do not think there's any purposeful connection beyond coincidence. As for the "childish scatalogical comment about George Lucas" all said was that in the same movie where you claim he was making connection between real-world microbial life and the invented one in his movie he also put poor character development, poor plot points (taxation and trade routes, really?!) and kiddie jokes centered around scat. IMHO, the two don't mix. If he put that much thought into the the biological component of The Force why is the rest of the movie almost universally considered to be crap?

And even if this connection was intended, I don't like it and I don't subscribe to it. I prefer the idea that The Force is vastly more mystical. As I said up-thread it's more wonderful and magical to think that Yoda is so in tune with himself, the universe, and he's just so "Zen" that he can use the Force. That's neat and cool to me.

But, nope, according to Ep:1 he just has good DNA.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

In my humble opinion, you're drawing connections, after the fact, from what you're seeing. Similar to how people interpret Nostradamus writings. You're seeing the same syllables, pronunciations, etc.

I, personally, do not think there's any purposeful connection beyond coincidence.

Yes there is.

"It is said that certain creatures are born with a higher awareness of the Force than humans. Their brains are different; they have more midi-chlorians in their cells."
―George Lucas, establishing guidelines for the Expanded Universe in 1977

Midi-chlorians were first conceived by George Lucas as early as 1977. In this time the first Expanded Universe products were being created, including the ongoing Marvel Star Wars series and Alan Dean Foster's novel Splinter of the Mind's Eye. Lucas sat down with a member of his staff, Carol Titelman, to dictate a number of guidelines for these works, explaining various concepts of his universe. Amongst them were an explanation of midi-chlorians, which Force-sensitive beings were said to have more of in their cells. However, Lucas did not feel he had the time to introduce the concept of midi-chlorians. The idea would not appear in any Star Wars product for twenty-two years; Lucas chose 1999's Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace as the opportunity to first mention the midi-chlorians, explaining why some were sensitive to the Force while others were not, an issue that he had left unresolved since the original film Star Wars. Lucas incorporated the explanation of midi-chlorians into the film as part of Anakin Skywalker's journey towards understanding the Force. That Lucas had planned the midi-chlorians as far back as 1977 was hinted at on the DVD commentary of The Phantom Menace, but the details would not be fully revealed for another eight years, coming to light in the 2007 book The Making of Star Wars: The Definitive Story Behind the Original Film, the hardcover edition of which had, amongst its appendices, Lucas' notes for the Expanded Universe authors.

Midi-chlorians in The Phantom Menace are part of a recurring theme throughout the movie, that of symbiotic relationships. They were loosely based on mitochondria, organelles that provide energy for cells; like midi-chlorians, mitochondria are believed to have once been separate organisms that inhabited living cells and have since become part of them; even now, mitochondria act in some ways as independent lifeforms, with DNA all their own. Lucas established this relation with mitochondria, in particular the necessity of midi-chlorians for life to exist, as a metaphor for society; namely, he says all parts of society must get along in much the same way the midi-chlorians and their symbiont do. In 2006—as a tribute to this similarity—a newly discovered species of bacteria residing within mitochondria was named Midichloria mitochondrii after the midi-chlorians. Its discoverer, Nate Lo, wrote to Lucas requesting permission to use the name, and was granted it.

Though midi-chlorians would not make a public appearance until 1999, pre-Phantom Menace Expanded Universe materials hinted at an individual's biological connection to the Force. In Jedi Search, Lando Calrissian carries out a search for potential Jedi for Luke's new academy by using a device that can detect affinity to the Force. In The Thrawn Trilogy, two organisms are mentioned, the vornskrs and the ysalimiri, that have evolved the ability respectively to use the Force to hunt prey and block the Force.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Midi-chlorian

 

[Temis the Vorta]

If the Jedi hadn't been such power-hungry, self-deluded fools, they would have killed Anakin on sight and saved everyone a lot of trouble

When they decided not to train him as a Jedi, what were they planning to do instead? For someone as provably powerful in the Force as he was, seems like training him or killing him are the only two options. They sure wouldn't let him run around loose.

This is exactly the kind of thing that Lucas can't handle acknowledging in the story, because he keeps trying to sanitize and dumb things down for the kiddies. It's exactly this tendency that keeps Star Wars from ever realizing its potential (except maybe in novels where Lucas doesn't interfere as much).

Since the force is controlled by midichlorians (or whatever) you'd think a (some) drugs would've reduced his levels to make Anakin no longer force sensitive.

Which is exactly why the Force shouldn't be written as something that could be controlled with something as mundane as drugs. If midichlorians aren't something on a mundane, mechanical level, but is just a meaningless label for something ineffible in the Force, then fine - but in that case, what purpose does the label serve except to call attention to how dumb it sounds?

That sort of sums of the whole ideal: Anakin was a good man. Maybe not Jesus/the "chosen one", but a good honest man. Then something just went horribly, tragically, wrong. He was fighting in a war, it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility that some one he loved was killed in a battle, or he thought the kids were killed, etc, etc. And he just says "fuck it" and turns on...well every one cause the way he sees they all were at fault.

Anakin was never a good, honest man in the movies, because he was never a man. He was a pathetic, self-pitying nausea-inducing little boy.

Now if you're talking about the Anakin of Clone Wars, you may be onto something. However, if a reasonable, normal person has a really bad day - sees his buddy killed, and snaps, maybe commits a few atrocities - that doesn't turn that person into a guy who spends the next 20 years blowing up planets. Instead, when the guy calms down, he decides either to accept the blame for his actions or to try to evade responsibility, blame someone else, etc. But then he goes on living a normal life, maybe making some attempt to atone for his behavior. A bad day doesn't make you nuts unless you already have a strong tendency to be nuts.

If we blame Anakin's mania to save Padme for his fall, then once Padme is dead, why does he continue with evil? He loved her enough to go to extremes trying to save her, which means he can't be a total monster. It makes more sense to me that he would be filled with guilt and regret, or anger at a cruel, uncaring cosmos, but why would he have any interest in following Palps one millisecond longer after his sole motive for allying with him - saving Padme - was a moot point?

The way Anakin was portrayed in the movies, the only reasonable ending for ROTS was Vader's suicide. He wouldn't have lasted 20 years. He certainly wouldn't have been the vigorous and enthusiastic supporter of the Empire and Palps that we saw. The movie Anakin just didn't have the strength of character for that.

One way that some of this might make sense is if you assume the Dark Side is not just a metaphor for evil but rather a literal force in the universe, a bit like being assimilated by the Borg, so that once it gets its claws in you, you are subject to some degree of mind control. Not total mind control of course - that would negate the moral dimension which is vital to the story - and also, it still doesn't explain how a spineless crybaby wimp could become Vader. Does the Dark Side also outfit you with a spine?

So when you now see Vader int he OT you don't see this once great man corrupted by evil you see a bitch-ass punk complaining about sand.

I've got the perfect solution: watch Clone Wars, which is busy rewriting Anakin to be the golden boy/war hero that we wanted all along. The trouble with him (and I've only watched the first disk of S1 so far, so maybe this gets handled) is that I'm not seeing any fatal flaw that can lead to planet-blowing-up in his future. A bit cocky and risk-taking, sure, but nothing too untoward, more like charming. Dunno how Tarakovsky plans to pull off the transition...

Well I think one begins to show up in season 2

Ooooooh!!! Color me intrigued!

And yeah, I'm watching the CGI cartoon, so I guess this Dave Filoni is the guy to watch, if he can pull off this story better than Lucas did. (And hopefully avoiding the unworkable "he did it for Padme" option. )

 

[Silvercrest]

Which is exactly why the Force shouldn't be written as something that could be controlled with something as mundane as drugs. If midichlorians aren't something on a mundane, mechanical level, but is just a meaningless label for something ineffible in the Force, then fine - but in that case, what purpose does the label serve except to call attention to how dumb it sounds?

It's worse than that. The movies don't specifically state that a high midichlorian count is hereditary, but it is heavily implied since Force-sensitivity certainly is. Which means that logically you should be able to breed people for a high midichlorian count. Which means that preventing Jedi from having children makes very little sense.

 

[Mr Light]

If the most powerful Jedi bred with each other you would quickly produce an invincible caste of super charged Force users who would threaten the galaxy (or at the very least, the galaxy would feel threatened by).

But that's not why they do it, it's the same reason Catholic priests aren't allowed to do it, to keep pure. Attachment leads to the Dark Side.