Personally I saw that as more of a "bromance" though they didn't have that term at the time. But to each their own.
Garak and Bashir
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Personally I saw that as more of a "bromance" though they didn't have that term at the time. But to each their own.
Yeah, I'd say bromance for those two rather than any sexual interest from either party.
Agree, the characters together were entertaining to see where the script would take them.
#1 - He tried to for the first couple of episodes and it was officially dropped/told to quit it..... which he did.
#2 - It is irrelevant what the actor thinks his character should be, he's there to play a character with an already pre-determined personality setup before they took on the role. They will usually modify a character based on the performance the actor gives, if they like it.... clearly they didn't like it and they told him to drop it.
It wasn't part of the original character and even after he attempted to make him gay or bi or whatever, they didn't like it, thus the character remained as it should.
And I've seen straight people grab someone by the shoulders and whisper something in someone's ear, usually for intimidation purposes...... so while each person can come up with their own subjective conclusions on what that all meant when it did it to Bashir, it's still not enough evidence to somehow prove Garak was officially gay.
Praxius, I didn't say anything about proof, I'm just talking about how people viewed their relationship. It's not a court of law or anything.
That gesture of putting hands on shoulders struck me as "oh, I'm so mysterious, so I'll freak you out additionally by touching you in weird way". I never thought of it as any sort of sexual gesture.
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Eh, to each their own. I prefer the events of the novel "A Stitch in Time" written by Robinson, and his own preferences with how he wanted to play Garak in the series. He wanted sexual ambiguity, and he got it, even if the writers were too squeamish to see it through officially.
I agree with Sarek. Garak was played like this even if the writers didn't create him this way.
I definetly see some sexual tension between Garak and Bashir.
I definetly see some sexual tension between Garak and Bashir.
I never said it wasn't. I said I didn't see it. I still don't.
Now, in "A Stitch in Time" Garak's attraction to both guys and gals is clear even to me.
Definitely on Garak's end. With Bashir, I don't see real onscreen evidence that he's returning those feelings other than friendship. It strikes me as an unrequited love/lust.
I find the notion absurd. The writers had enough going on with Garak, who was only a supporting character, without concerning themselves with his sexual preferences. It is simply irrelevant to his storylines. Why people must always bend over backwards to try and artificially interpret this kind of subtext into any dynamic between two characters of the same gender on tv shows? Being gay isn't much to write home about any more so why make a fuss? 
I don't think it's "bending over backwards"--I think it's fairly close to (though not provably) the truth. And I don't say that about any other character in all of Trekdom.
And back then, people were NOT as free to show that outright on air, as they are now. We're talking 16 years ago.
And back then, people were NOT as free to show that outright on air, as they are now. We're talking 16 years ago.
That's not really true. It's not a novel or a film - on a TV show, usually it's only a few main (and most important) characteristics of a character are set before the show starts. TV shows usually develop organically, without an awful lot being planned in advance, or, at best, some major elements of the story are planned in advance, and usually it's one or two seasons ahead. A lot of info and background gets added later, and there are many examples when the casting and the performance of the actor - as well as chemistry with the other cast members - influence the further storylines, portrayal and info about the background of the character. Especially when it's a recurring character. Sisko wouldn't have been black and wouldn't have the Benny Russell storyline if Avery Brooks hadn't been cast, Bashir would have been "Dr Amoros" if Siddig hadn't been cast, Odo (originally envisioned as a "Clint Eastwood" character) became a lot more emotional and in love with Kira because of Rene Auberjonois's performances, Dukat wasn't supposed to be a particularly layered character and might not have gotten such a big role in later seasons if it wasn't for Marc Alaimo's portrayal and charisma, and to my knowledge, if it wasn't for his chemistry with Nana Visitor there would have been no special Kira/Dukat dynamic (apparently an idea dates about the time of "The Maquis"), and so on. Do you think that Picard would have loved Shakespeare and Earl Gray tea if Mitch Ryan, Patrick Bauchau or Yaphet Kotto had been cast instead of Patrick Stewart? Was being straight ever a part of Garak's backstory in the character bible? I really, really doubt it. And there are lots and lots of examples of TV shows that expanded the roles of recurring characters and made them into regular and wrote major storylines around them as a result of the actor's performance and popularity; and examples of TV shows that had major, crucial relationship storylines being written into the show, even though nobody had planned it initially, because actors/characters turned out to have an amazing chemistry, and the "subtext" got noticed by fans (and lots of shipping ensued), long before it became "the main text" i.e. the relationship became canon.
I find the notion absurd. The writers had enough going on with Garak, who was only a supporting character, without concerning themselves with his sexual preferences. It is simply irrelevant to his storylines. Why people must always bend over backwards to try and artificially interpret this kind of subtext into any dynamic between two characters of the same gender on tv shows? Being gay isn't much to write home about any more so why make a fuss?
So why do you find the notion absurd if it ain't no thing?
Garak is gay. His friendship with Bashir is a significant element of the Deep Space Nine story. Why bend over backwards to think he's NOT gay, unless you somehow view heterosexuality as a 'default' sexual preference?
DevilEyes, you put it perfectly. Hats off to you!
You are exaggerating. While there is clearly sexual tension between Garak and Bashir, I think Bashir and O'Brien are just very good friends. In most other non-canonical same-sex pairings where I see some gay subtext, I see the sexual attraction as one-sided (Q->Picard on TNG, Gaeta->Baltar on BSG).I find the notion absurd. The writers had enough going on with Garak, who was only a supporting character, without concerning themselves with his sexual preferences. It is simply irrelevant to his storylines. Why people must always bend over backwards to try and artificially interpret this kind of subtext into any dynamic between two characters of the same gender on tv shows? Being gay isn't much to write home about any more so why make a fuss?
Some people have a lower threshold for this interpretation, but very few people literally see sexual tension between any two characters of the same sex in a TV show. The basis for weirder non-canonical same-sex couples is usually a fetish.
I suppose that's exactly what this debate is suggesting to me. It feels a bit like a fetish. I personnally do not see how one could come to the conclusion that Garak is either gay or hetero, based solely on what we have seen. The only thing that came close to a love interest for him on the snow was Ziyal and she was a women. His relationship with Bashir on the other hand doesn't convey any salient subtext to me. These guys had lunch once a week. Big deal. Bashir was intrigued by Garak because of his mysterious background and I think because he also wanted to reach out to this isolated loner. Why did Garak humour the good Doctor? Because he wanted to get Bashier into bed? What kind of a laughable exageration is that? I believe Garak simply enjoyed having someone half guilable he could enact his spiel of lies and stories on. Eventually he grew to appreciate and even respect the Doctor. One might go as far as calling it friendship. How one can go from that to conclude Garak was feeling a sexual desire I really don't know.
And the Q-Picard thing seems even more far fetched. The Q aren't even humanoid. We saw on Voyager that their sexual relationships are rather aseptic compared to humans. Therefore, I doubt Q was persuing Picard for that sort of companionship. Now Miles and Julian on the other hand were quite a typical male friendship thus no one attributes homosexuality. Garak and Julian, Q and Picard are much less stereotypical but that doesn't automatically make them sexual in nature, just different.
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I never got a sense that Garak really encouraged or fully understood Ziyal's attraction to him. In fact, I actually think he seemed a little bit uncertain of how to let her down gently.
And to add on to what RegFan said, I think that based on on-screen behavior, G/B is probably just G.
Even if Bashir were attracted in return (and Siddig's performance is not blatant like Robinson's), he does not seem that open to an intimate relationship, just friendship.
And to add on to what RegFan said, I think that based on on-screen behavior, G/B is probably just G.
Even if Bashir were attracted in return (and Siddig's performance is not blatant like Robinson's), he does not seem that open to an intimate relationship, just friendship.
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