Garak and Bashir

[Praxius]

That's not really true. It's not a novel or a film - on a TV show, usually it's only a few main (and most important) characteristics of a character are set before the show starts. TV shows usually develop organically, without an awful lot being planned in advance, or, at best, some major elements of the story are planned in advance, and usually it's one or two seasons ahead. A lot of info and background gets added later, and there are many examples when the casting and the performance of the actor - as well as chemistry with the other cast members - influence the further storylines, portrayal and info about the background of the character. Especially when it's a recurring character. Sisko wouldn't have been black and wouldn't have the Benny Russell storyline if Avery Brooks hadn't been cast, Bashir would have been "Dr Amoros" if Siddig hadn't been cast, Odo (originally envisioned as a "Clint Eastwood" character) became a lot more emotional and in love with Kira because of Rene Auberjonois's performances, Dukat wasn't supposed to be a particularly layered character and might not have gotten such a big role in later seasons if it wasn't for Marc Alaimo's portrayal and charisma, and to my knowledge, if it wasn't for his chemistry with Nana Visitor there would have been no special Kira/Dukat dynamic (apparently an idea dates about the time of "The Maquis"), and so on. Do you think that Picard would have loved Shakespeare and Earl Gray tea if Mitch Ryan, Patrick Bauchau or Yaphet Kotto had been cast instead of Patrick Stewart? Was being straight ever a part of Garak's backstory in the character bible? I really, really doubt it. And there are lots and lots of examples of TV shows that expanded the roles of recurring characters and made them into regular and wrote major storylines around them as a result of the actor's performance and popularity; and examples of TV shows that had major, crucial relationship storylines being written into the show, even though nobody had planned it initially, because actors/characters turned out to have an amazing chemistry, and the "subtext" got noticed by fans (and lots of shipping ensued), long before it became "the main text" i.e. the relationship became canon.

I'm not talking about later modifications to a series based on those things, which I'm quite aware of.

As I stated in the post you quoted:
"They will usually modify a character based on the performance the actor gives, if they like it"

Which covers many of the examples you provided above..... but by your own words above, in the end, it's the writers/creators of the show who have the final say.... not the actor.

I never said they had the entire series written out before they even started the first episode, but they do have the basic elements of those characters drawn out at the start which they expect the actor to play out as they envisioned, otherwise they wouldn't have gotten the part..... or they did the part differently but in a way they like, thus at that time they will modify the character and other story elements..... but it's still the final decision of the creators/writers what actually happens.

If the actor does something they don't like or doesn't portray the character as they think they should, they call a cut, tell them to do it again and their previous performance is scrapped.

Back on track a bit towards Garak, my wife and I watched the first episode he appeared in last night and neither of us could find anything that would suggest he was gay, in his movements, facial expressions, gestures, or what he said...... and when he put his hands on Bashir's shoulders, he just seemed like the creepy "I may kill you tonight" Garak that we remembered.

 

[Praxius]

I suppose that's exactly what this debate is suggesting to me. It feels a bit like a fetish. I personnally do not see how one could come to the conclusion that Garak is either gay or hetero, based solely on what we have seen. The only thing that came close to a love interest for him on the snow was Ziyal and she was a women. His relationship with Bashir on the other hand doesn't convey any salient subtext to me. These guys had lunch once a week. Big deal. Bashir was intrigued by Garak because of his mysterious background and I think because he also wanted to reach out to this isolated loner. Why did Garak humour the good Doctor? Because he wanted to get Bashier into bed? What kind of a laughable exageration is that? I believe Garak simply enjoyed having someone half guilable he could enact his spiel of lies and stories on. Eventually he grew to appreciate and even respect the Doctor. One might go as far as calling it friendship. How one can go from that to conclude Garak was feeling a sexual desire I really don't know.

Exactly.... that's exactly how it seemed to me and just about everybody I asked in person who held an interest in the show.

I have no problems if his character was officially gay and there were actual hints that he was gay or interested in someone of the same sex, but there wasn't any..... none.... nadda and the arguments people are using to justify their positions that he was indeed gay, are not just stretching the imagination, but are a bit on the foolish side...... or completely irrelevant.

And the Q-Picard thing seems even more far fetched.

Agreed.... my previous img of Q by Picard's ear was my sarcastic view of them being gay, which neither were, just as Garak and Bashir weren't...... yet now it seems people are voicing their views that they were gay too.

The Q aren't even humanoid. We saw on Voyager that their sexual relationships are rather aseptic compared to humans. Therefore, I doubt Q was persuing Picard for that sort of companionship. Now Miles and Julian on the other hand were quite a typical male friendship thus no one attributes homosexuality. Garak and Julian, Q and Picard are much less stereotypical but that doesn't automatically make them sexual in nature, just different.

Indeed.... what I see here are people really struggling to hold some hope that their views are correct, in that they really do want to have an openly homosexual character in Star Trek who does get into same-sex relationships...... and I'm all for it too, I couldn't care less..... but Garak and Bashir were not the example and neither were ever noted, let alone hinted as being gay or having sexual interest in one another.

And the actor saying they tried to play the character as gay is not a legitimate argument because he doesn't hold the final say, the creators of the show told him to drop it shortly after he tried to do this, and thus..... Garak actually being gay is simply non-existent.

 

[Jefferies]

What about Kira and Dax?

Again, I would argue that that too is a wild over-interpretation. In fact, I'm not sure how close they were even just as friends. Sure they were very friendly with each other as colleagues but how much time did they actually spend together off duty? Not that much on a routine basis as far as I recall.

It's not like I want to burst anyones bubble, but Trek simply has not had an agenda for portraying homosexual relationships on any level what so ever. The few exceptions are TNG's The Outcast and DS9's Rejoined both of which dealt with the topic in a very indirect way. But then again, sexuality of any kind has never really been much explored on any of the shows. It's a bit of a non issue really. Personnally, this never bothered me but maybe others feel a need to see things that aren't there as a result.

 

[Jefferies]

I suppose that's exactly what this debate is suggesting to me. It feels a bit like a fetish. I personnally do not see how one could come to the conclusion that Garak is either gay or hetero, based solely on what we have seen. The only thing that came close to a love interest for him on the snow was Ziyal and she was a women. His relationship with Bashir on the other hand doesn't convey any salient subtext to me. These guys had lunch once a week. Big deal. Bashir was intrigued by Garak because of his mysterious background and I think because he also wanted to reach out to this isolated loner. Why did Garak humour the good Doctor? Because he wanted to get Bashier into bed? What kind of a laughable exageration is that? I believe Garak simply enjoyed having someone half guilable he could enact his spiel of lies and stories on. Eventually he grew to appreciate and even respect the Doctor. One might go as far as calling it friendship. How one can go from that to conclude Garak was feeling a sexual desire I really don't know.

Exactly.... that's exactly how it seemed to me and just about everybody I asked in person who held an interest in the show.

I have no problems if his character was officially gay and there were actual hints that he was gay or interested in someone of the same sex, but there wasn't any..... none.... nadda and the arguments people are using to justify their positions that he was indeed gay, are not just stretching the imagination, but are a bit on the foolish side...... or completely irrelevant.

And the Q-Picard thing seems even more far fetched.

Agreed.... my previous img of Q by Picard's ear was my sarcastic view of them being gay, which neither were, just as Garak and Bashir weren't...... yet now it seems people are voicing their views that they were gay too.

The Q aren't even humanoid. We saw on Voyager that their sexual relationships are rather aseptic compared to humans. Therefore, I doubt Q was persuing Picard for that sort of companionship. Now Miles and Julian on the other hand were quite a typical male friendship thus no one attributes homosexuality. Garak and Julian, Q and Picard are much less stereotypical but that doesn't automatically make them sexual in nature, just different.

Indeed.... what I see here are people really struggling to hold some hope that their views are correct, in that they really do want to have an openly homosexual character in Star Trek who does get into same-sex relationships...... and I'm all for it too, I couldn't care less..... but Garak and Bashir were not the example and neither were ever noted, let alone hinted as being gay or having sexual interest in one another.

And the actor saying they tried to play the character as gay is not a legitimate argument because he doesn't hold the final say, the creators of the show told him to drop it shortly after he tried to do this, and thus..... Garak actually being gay is simply non-existent.

I'm so glad I'm not the only one! I was beginning to think this place is going crazy.

 

[DevilEyes]

Will everyone please stop claiming that Robinson played the character as "gay"? That's not what he said he was doing.

Andrew Robinson provided non-canon insight into his role when interviewed by Amazon.com, stating "I started out playing Garak as someone who doesn't have a defined sexuality. He's not gay, he's not straight, it's a non-issue for him. Basically his sexuality is inclusive. But – it's Star Trek and there were a couple of things working against that. One is that Americans really are very nervous about sexual ambiguity. Also, this is a family show, they have to keep it on the 'straight and narrow', so then I backed off from it. Originally, in that very first episode, I loved the man's absolute fearlessness about presenting himself to an attractive human being. The fact that the attractive human being is a man (Bashir) doesn't make any difference to him, but that was a little too sophisticated I think. For the most part, the writers supported the character beautifully, but in that area they just made a choice they didn't want to go there, and if they don't want to go there I can't, because the writing doesn't support it."

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Elim_Garak

In the end, Garak's omnisexuality that Robinson wanted to portray is never either confirmed or denied. It's obviously not canon, but one may see the subtext there (and I'm usually not quick to see sexual subtext in any dynamic, but it's one of the cases where there seems to be grounds for it). The "undefined", vague hints of sexuality may be seen as a part of Garak's behavior towards people, the way he "seduces" them with words and lies. There are different ways sexuality can be subtly expressed, it's not just limited to outright expressions of desire. After all, as an Obsidian Order operative, genuine romance or relationships would have been an obstacle to Garak, like they were to Tain.

 

[ramonasno]

Wow, to be honest, I'v never thought of garak being gay, and I always find my own clues about gay people in tv shows. But this one, no...But I've read all you arguments, and put on a Garak episode to see what I can make of it

The post of Devileyes was brilliant. Really good writing

 

[Eleanor_zhDarjel]

I'm so glad I'm not the only one! I was beginning to think this place is going crazy.

Hate to rain on your parade, but I think it already is...

As to the Obsidian Order rules, I see you point DevilEyes. What I think is that they don't apply on this case. I see sexual conotation and chemistry, but no real wish for any form of relationship. I think Garak enjoys the game.

As for trying to see homosexuality that Trek didn't intent to show? Who knows Jefferies, perhaps I'm doing that. But that doesn't change the fact that I see some sparks...

 

[Captain Atkin]

I think that Garak was bi-sexual, or perhaps even in the closet. I think he was definitely attracted to Julian.

 

[jolene_b_fan]

I always like Garek, in the last few years where he really got screen time, he was played so well and passionate. A cardassian taylor, perfect.

 

[DS9 Gal AZ]

I loved Garak and I know the actor's initial intent was to portray him as omnisexual. If they had been brave and actually had a gay character/couple on Trek we wouldn't have to make do with subtext. Also, they'd show two women kissing but not two men. It would have been a big deal, just like the Kirk-Uhura kiss back on TOS.

 

[Nachtkommen]

I guess you all haven't seen the scrapped scene where Garak and Bashir get married...

"You may now kiss the groom."

 

[DS9 Gal AZ]

HAH! If only that were part of the caption contest!

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Am I the only one who thinks Garak looks horrible in human clothes?

 

[Rush Limborg]

In a tux, yeah.

But, as he himself noted, the suit Mona fit for him was okay....

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Uh...that tan thing, with the turtleneck? Hell no, that was butt ugly, too.

 

[ShamelessMcBundy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2q2ySAOyqo

Discuss.

He asked his best friend to eat his rod. Nothing gay about that.

But seriously though, while Bashir may not have been gay, i certainly got that vibe from Garak. If you've read A Stitch in Time, he's rather clear in there too, at least i thought.

Although, i feel Bashir and O'Brien to be a tad too friendly sometimes, but they jsut had a bromance.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Uh...that tan thing, with the turtleneck? Hell no, that was butt ugly, too.

Okay. Well--you're the lady. You probably know a lot more about fashion than I do.

(Which isn't saying much. I only care about fashion when I'm in an actual suit. And even then--I have to ask a woman for advice. Usually my mother.

But...Garak seemed to think it was pretty nice....)

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Well, Garak's had his fashion faux pas on occasion, too.

Personally, I've thought that an Indian sherwani or jodhpuri suit, properly tailored for the neck ridges, of course (would require either a cut straight across the ridges, not unlike a gul's uniform, or the kind of "collar" we've seen on people like Kotan Pa'Dar), would be much more attractive on a Cardassian than a tux or a turtleneck.

http://www.monarch-garments.com/catsherwani2.htm
http://www.monarch-garments.com/index.asp

 

[Enterprise1981]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nO6_nk25rA

It's still fun to joke about those bromances, especially given some of the humorous dialogue between Julian and Miles in "Explorers", "Hippocratic Oath", "Chrysalis", "Extreme Measures", et al.

 

[Rush Limborg]

"I looooooooooove...my wife...."

(sigh) "And I love Ezri...passionately."

(I sympathize, Julian. I sympathize....)

"Ya do?"

"Yes...."

"Have you told her?"

"Uh, not yet...but I will!"

"Oh yeah? Heh! When?"

"When I'm ready! It's just that I...like you...a bit more! See? There, I've admitted it."

"Yeah...well....

(Long pause)

...I love my wife."