DS9 Versus: A viewing experient
- Thread starter Sykonee
- Start date
What does God need with a retcon? 
I love the Shadows and Symbols two parter. So much was going on, so it was a grand start the season.
And it's nice to back to this BBS after a few weeks away. It's been crazy.
I love the Shadows and Symbols two parter. So much was going on, so it was a grand start the season.
And it's nice to back to this BBS after a few weeks away. It's been crazy.
It's great to be god. Not only you can do things that make no sense, but you can also be a complete asshole and use, manipulate and abuse people any way you want, and nobody has a problem with that, even though they go on for ages about how evil those same things are when done by mortal beings.
(After all, as we've learned from the ancient Greeks, Rape is OK When It's Divine on Mortal.)Kira's/Bajor's conflict with the Romulans seems so forced - and riddled with plot holes - that it really does bring down Shadows and Symbols for me.
Week 3: (Ending 10.18.98)
DS9 - Afterimage (10.14.98)
VOY - Night (10.14.98)
Now this is a first: a new main cast character getting an introductory episode all to themselves. Right, so Ezri kind of was already introduced last episode, but with everything going on there, it was sort of shuffled off to the side. Here, she's the primary focus, with Garak's B-story getting tied into the A-story. Gee, Worf never got such an opportunity, but then everyone already knew who he was when he stepped on to DS9. Seven Of Nine? She had a whole bunch of B-stories, but no A-story for a long while. So yes, I do believe this is a Trek first.
But... it's a Dax story - those were always hit-or-miss. Fortunately, DS9's expert Character Episode writer is on the job, and yet again Echevarria comes up with the goods. Granted, having Garak in the B-story helps things along immensely, as we discover what the cause of his anxiety is and all. Overall, it's a fine introductory episode for Ezri, and you can tell de Boer (*swoon*) really did her homework in studying some of Farrell's acting ticks in playing Dax - I swear it sometimes feels like I'm actually watching Jadzia there!
I feel a bit lost as to what to make of VOY's season premiere. The initial premise is intriguing, the sort of thing that is actually more realistic when it comes to space travel - the ship practically lost in a 'dead' area of nothingness, driving everyone stir crazy - but it doesn't feel like they do enough with it. Just as soon as it looks like we might get some good character material out of it, things turn into standard Alien Of The Week attack fare. Okay, a nice twist on who's the bad guys here, and thumbs up for the Environmental Message (merely for the fact it was better handled than that abysmal Force Of Nature of TNG infamy), but most of it's "been there, done d'at" where this show's concerned.
And what's with Janeway here? This isolationist attitude of her's comes completely out of nowhere, and the self-sacrificial moment she has doesn't carry the same kind of weight I'm sure the scene hoped it would, since we're barely given a glimpse into her psyche leading up to it. After all, the moment the Void Aliens attack, she's back to normal. Oh well, Captain Proton looks like it'll be fun - that's a potential Holodeck Malfunction episode that just may turn out fine after all!
In all, these are fairly equal episodes in terms of entertainment value, though obviously for different reasons. Could go either way, but I'm giving DS9 the nod here because, in the end, an episode that features Garak is nigh impossible to beat.
Weekly Winner
DS9
Next:
DS9 - Take Me Out To The Holosuite
VOY - Drone
DS9 - Afterimage (10.14.98)
VOY - Night (10.14.98)
Now this is a first: a new main cast character getting an introductory episode all to themselves. Right, so Ezri kind of was already introduced last episode, but with everything going on there, it was sort of shuffled off to the side. Here, she's the primary focus, with Garak's B-story getting tied into the A-story. Gee, Worf never got such an opportunity, but then everyone already knew who he was when he stepped on to DS9. Seven Of Nine? She had a whole bunch of B-stories, but no A-story for a long while. So yes, I do believe this is a Trek first.
But... it's a Dax story - those were always hit-or-miss. Fortunately, DS9's expert Character Episode writer is on the job, and yet again Echevarria comes up with the goods. Granted, having Garak in the B-story helps things along immensely, as we discover what the cause of his anxiety is and all. Overall, it's a fine introductory episode for Ezri, and you can tell de Boer (*swoon*) really did her homework in studying some of Farrell's acting ticks in playing Dax - I swear it sometimes feels like I'm actually watching Jadzia there!
I feel a bit lost as to what to make of VOY's season premiere. The initial premise is intriguing, the sort of thing that is actually more realistic when it comes to space travel - the ship practically lost in a 'dead' area of nothingness, driving everyone stir crazy - but it doesn't feel like they do enough with it. Just as soon as it looks like we might get some good character material out of it, things turn into standard Alien Of The Week attack fare. Okay, a nice twist on who's the bad guys here, and thumbs up for the Environmental Message (merely for the fact it was better handled than that abysmal Force Of Nature of TNG infamy), but most of it's "been there, done d'at" where this show's concerned.
And what's with Janeway here? This isolationist attitude of her's comes completely out of nowhere, and the self-sacrificial moment she has doesn't carry the same kind of weight I'm sure the scene hoped it would, since we're barely given a glimpse into her psyche leading up to it. After all, the moment the Void Aliens attack, she's back to normal. Oh well, Captain Proton looks like it'll be fun - that's a potential Holodeck Malfunction episode that just may turn out fine after all!
In all, these are fairly equal episodes in terms of entertainment value, though obviously for different reasons. Could go either way, but I'm giving DS9 the nod here because, in the end, an episode that features Garak is nigh impossible to beat.
Weekly Winner
DS9
Next:
DS9 - Take Me Out To The Holosuite
VOY - Drone
Garak is such a show-stealer. It says so in my reviews. I've only seen the first two episodes with him so far and god, he's just a gob. I love it.
I'm not really much of a fan of Afterimage, to be honest. I guess it was good to have an introductory episode for Ezri, but I didn't find it particularly interesting. Yeah, Garak's in it, but even he sometimes shows up in mediocre episodes e.g. Distant Voices and Empok Nor.
I'd pick Voyager over DS9 here, Night's nothing special, but I found it more entertaining than Afterimage.
I'd pick Voyager over DS9 here, Night's nothing special, but I found it more entertaining than Afterimage.
Oh, no! I forgot to drink my Kool-Aid today!
I always have some on hand if you like
Actually, if voting for Voyager becomes a habit of yours, we may have to resort to injecting some directly into your arteries. Just say the word
A lot of people think the seventh season is one of DS9's three best, and the typical opinion on season six is if it weren't for some unevenness and blatantly iffy episodes strewn throughout, it would be killer.
Season 4 is definitely VOY's strongest season. Season 5 is a step down, though it's probably the show's second best season. It has some good stuff, too, but it also has some really awful episodes, and its best is not nearly as strong as the best of DS9 season 7. I'd definitely pick VOY the next week as I really like that episode, but I don't think VOY here has chance of winning against DS9 for the entire season.
I'm on board for 2, 5 and 7 as the top three. As for season six, I've been rewatching some of the episodes I don't usually go back to, and I think I haven't given it enough credit in the past overall (see my post earlier in the thread on the subject). Quite a few of the less prominent episodes are really very good.
Valiant, for example, is a pretty minor DS9 episode in the scheme of things, but in certain ways it's one of the most brutal episodes DS9 ever did as far as demystification is concerned. It's also a pretty major contribution to Nog's maturation and the last important Jake episode.
Statistical Probabilities is one of the best Bashir episodes, right up there with Inter Arma. I never really liked the Jack Pack, and I still don't all that much, but the main story of this episode, which is mostly Bashir talking and over-analysing himself into a state of abject despair, is powerful, perceptive stuff, and quite unusual, really. I can't think of another story right off the top of my head to compare this to. And the moment when Sisko basically tells Bashir to take his analysis and shove it up his ass is one of the coolest moments for the Captain in a season where he has a lot of very good material (R&S, FBtS, ItPM, etc.).
Wrongs is also better than I remember. Dukat's involvement is mostly a distraction. It's an episode about Kira meeting her mother, being disappointed by what she learns, and being forced to recognize that she can't condemn her for her weakness as easily as she would like.
There are other examples. What the season does lack post-occupation arc is the same sense of momentum that seasons 4 and 5 had, no doubt partly due to uncertainty over whether or not there would be an additional season.
I think an opportunity was missed by not having Bajor join the Federation as an added event for the end of season 6. Following the events of Rapture and the Occupation Arc, there is really no longer any impediment to Bajor becoming a full member. This would have led to the integration of the Bajoran militia into Starfleet and put Kira in a Starfleet uniform earlier, all of which would have added some momentum to the end of the season. (Kira's blockade storyline at the beginning of season 7 would require only a minor rewrite.)
Basically, after the occupation arc, the show goes back to its roots with character pieces and universe-building. It's good DS9, though it suffers a bit in comparison to some of the more momentous events the show is capable of by that time.
Disclaimer: P&L sucks, and having two squabbling factions of Jem'Hadar was a bad idea.
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Voyager's "Night" had some interesting things in it IMO.
Like the part where Janeway got moody, and was running the ship from her quarters, not coming out to the bridge or talking to anyone in weeks.
It was like a look at the captain, from another angle, which I found interesting.
Another was how Voyager was comfortable with 20th century pop culture. Or at least Tom was.
The entire Voyager 5th season its self had some odd parts to it, like the other have said.
It's like if only they could keep up the momentum, it would be a super cult classic series, but the few bad or slower episodes (especially the Borg ones,) seems to put it in the "pretty, somewhat interesting" category.
But, season 5 seemed to be more bolder than usual...
Like the part where Janeway got moody, and was running the ship from her quarters, not coming out to the bridge or talking to anyone in weeks.
It was like a look at the captain, from another angle, which I found interesting.
Another was how Voyager was comfortable with 20th century pop culture. Or at least Tom was.
The entire Voyager 5th season its self had some odd parts to it, like the other have said.
It's like if only they could keep up the momentum, it would be a super cult classic series, but the few bad or slower episodes (especially the Borg ones,) seems to put it in the "pretty, somewhat interesting" category.
But, season 5 seemed to be more bolder than usual...
Excellent write-ups, flemm. (I need to come up with something to say that's better than complimenting you like a damned follower, but until I get to the later seasons again there isn't much to say...)
I'll be taking into consideration your thoughts on the episodes you mentioned when I get to them. I will say this, though: from memory, which could be quite faulty, I'd think Bajor might not be too hot on joining the Federation until the Dominion War ends, lest things get real shaky again and the station falls victim a second time?
I'll be taking into consideration your thoughts on the episodes you mentioned when I get to them. I will say this, though: from memory, which could be quite faulty, I'd think Bajor might not be too hot on joining the Federation until the Dominion War ends, lest things get real shaky again and the station falls victim a second time?
You don't seem to have any trouble expressing your own ideas in your reviews. I'm looking forward to your thoughts on the later seasons as well
I can't be sure that I'm remembering every detail, but as I recall in Rapture Bajor's membership is approved, but The Sisko's visions compell him to prevent the process from going forward because he has foreseen the upcoming Dominion invasion and occupation of Bajor. With that out of the way, though, I don't think there was any particular reason why Bajor couldn't just go ahead and become a member at the end of season 6, had the writers chosen to go in that direction.
As it is we can assume Bajor will become a member soon after WYLB, but that plot thread is never actually brought to fulfillment.
Yeah, it's a shame. I'm not going to get firmly behind the cause until I've rewatched year seven, but as it stands, I can definitely see where people are coming from (Nana Visitor included, even) when they insinuate that the show could have gone on another season. I think with some tweaks to The Final Chapter, it could have been quite feasible.
I didn't know that any of those episodes were supposed to be weak until I started reading this forum. I always thought Statistical Probabilities was a great episode, Wrongs was also excellent (despite having a major retcon, but I guess as far as major retcons go, this one was more plausible than most tend to be, compare BSG's retcons for instance), and Valiant was also very good - I never understood the hate. The thing that does hurt season 6 is that the incredibly intense Dominion occupation arc is followed by a wedding episode (which is OK in itself - it's the placement of it that I have issues with), then the pointless episode about Kira meeting MU Bareil (or rather, its only point seems to have been to please a portion of the fanbase), and it all just felt weird. Now, I don't think that every episode should have been like Rocks and Shoals, but it was too much of a 180 degrees switch. After everything that happened in Sacrifice of Angels, two episodes go with barely a mention of the Dominion, and it doesn't feel like there is a war going on at all.
But season 7 suffers from the same problem, with a string of Ezri episodes and baseball/holodeck episodes. Now, I agree that not every episode should have been like The Siege of AR-558, but those fun episodes, IMO, should have featured more of the feeling that there is a war going on in the background. But when you make episodes about Ezri's family or Vic Fontaine or a baseball game with the Vulcans that you can probably watch in their entirety without realizing that there is a major war going on, the show just feel schizophrenic. Maybe they could have done those episodes with a politics/war-related B-story, like In the Cards did. It's a Paper Moon is a great example of a season 7 episode that manages to show the other side of the war , the consequences on people who got wounded/mutilated and traumatized, and be a heartwarming little character story at the same time. Field of Fire should probably also be added to the list, as its story is related to the stress and trauma caused by the war.
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