Julian disgusted me as a person

[exodus]

I'm not talking about his duties as a doctor, I'm talking about the effect it will have on the entire galaxy at large.
To spite his obligation, history will not view him curing the Jem Hadar as heroic.



Then again, he might because history will then be written by the Dominion.

i completely see you point. now you see mine. tactically his move was stupid, i'll give you that. we have no idea what they would do if they were free. but as a physician, it was his duty and obligation. (hope you know how important that is) whatever the consequences for the galaxy may be. for a physician, there is nothing more important than the oath. history or war notwithstanding.

and yes, i would consider his actions heroic if they cured them. just because a youre at war with someone, it doesnt mean that you have to leave someone to suffer if you can help them. thats the reason you treat enemy soldiers as well if they end up in your hospital.


Listen, i come from a military family, but i also have medical training, albeit limited. and i'm far from a doctor but i still take the oath seriously. even if i officially don't have to. i'm in a position to see both sides.

You asume I don't & you assume incorrectly.

 

[exodus]

I'm not talking about his duties as a doctor, I'm talking about the effect it will have on the entire galaxy at large.
To spite his obligation, history will not view him curing the Jem Hadar as heroic.
In this situation his duty as physician could have been overrided if a higher ranking Officer were present, as well. So his superiors wouldn't have seen what he was doing as a good thing either.


Then again, he might because history will then be written by the Dominion.

Uh... what?

Hello...?! The Jem'Hadar were engineered by the Founders to be addicted to the white so they would be loyal soldiers of the Dominion!

Or did you just manage to miss the whole point of the white addiction in the first place?

Curing them of white would set them free - and potentially could even mean that some, or many, could refuse to follow the Vorta's orders = a huge blow to the Dominion.

I guess you missed the statement by Wayhoun that without the White, the Jem Hadar's loyality to anyone is overrated. IOW, without it they kill EVERYONE!
That's not a huge blow to the Dominion, its a huge blow to everyone.

 

[ares93]

You asume I don't & you assume incorrectly.

beg your pardon? exactly what am i assuming?

 

[exodus]

You asume I don't & you assume incorrectly.

beg your pardon? exactly what am i assuming?

That I don't understand the Hypocratic oath and a doctors duty to up hold it.(you said I didn't see your point)

My reply was exactly what Julian himself said in the ep., that due to O'Brian not out ranking him he couldn't order him not too. Had Sisko or Worf been there, they could have. That wasn't denying that he is still honor & duty bound to want to do his job, it just the chain of command in that type of sitution.

 

[ares93]

You asume I don't & you assume incorrectly.

beg your pardon? exactly what am i assuming?

That I don't understand the Hypocratic oath and a doctors duty to up hold it.(you said I didn't see your point)

My reply was exactly what Julian himself said in the ep., that due to O'Brian not out ranking him he couldn't order him not too. Had Sisko or Worf been there, they could have. That wasn't denying that he is still honor & duty bound to want to do his job, it just the chain of command in that type of sitution.

listen man. i'm not saying you're wrong, i not saying that you dont understand the H-Oath. i'm saying were both right, but from different perspectives.

the CoC does not matter in this case, but you are correct. they could have ordered him and he would have had too obey but they weren't. but his status as a military officer is not at question here. you considered his actions wrong. its you prerogative to have your own opinion but i was simply trying to point out that physicians have a different rulebook.

 

[You_Will_Fail]

She's not married to Worf, that's a huge difference. She has no interest nor reverence for Klingon culture. She does not wrestle with other men in the morning. She does not gamble with Quark. She isn't a party girl.

They are elements of the host's personality coming through, the actual life she lived, the motions she went through every day were very similar to Jadzia, I really don't know how I can make that any clearer.

O'Brien worked with the senior staff on DS9, he drank in Quark's with the same people as Jadzia, he ate lunch with the same people as Jadzia, he slept on the same station in quarters that were probably near enough identical to Jadzia's, and he went on missions with the Defiant with the same people as Jadzia.

By your logic, O'Brien and Jadzia are the same person.

O'Brien and Jadzia lived similar lives anyway during the height of the dominion since they were working so closely and so often.
My point was that as a newly joined trill, Ezri did little to differentiate herself from her previous host in the actions she took and life she assumed. Is this not blindingly obvious?
I'm not saying Ezri has the same personality as Jadzia - I'm talking about the life she lead. Could you please pay attention rather than looking for ways to get a laugh?

A couple of years ago, I was in a relationship with someone that I was sure was "the one", and that relationship fell apart against my wishes (i.e. I was dumped). Was I wrong to look for someone new, someone that isn't "the one"? If I find someone one day that I love just as much (or more), if I consider that new person to be "the one", does that make me a bad person for being with someone else? Would you be disgusted by me?

Your situation isn't even comparable, don't waste my time with such crap please. We're clearly talking about a fictional situation involving a completely made up species and the special circumstances in their lives. No matter how hard you try, you can't relate it to a real life situation so don't bother.

 

[DevilEyes]

I'm not talking about his duties as a doctor, I'm talking about the effect it will have on the entire galaxy at large.
To spite his obligation, history will not view him curing the Jem Hadar as heroic.
In this situation his duty as physician could have been overrided if a higher ranking Officer were present, as well. So his superiors wouldn't have seen what he was doing as a good thing either.


Then again, he might because history will then be written by the Dominion.

Uh... what?

Hello...?! The Jem'Hadar were engineered by the Founders to be addicted to the white so they would be loyal soldiers of the Dominion!

Or did you just manage to miss the whole point of the white addiction in the first place?

Curing them of white would set them free - and potentially could even mean that some, or many, could refuse to follow the Vorta's orders = a huge blow to the Dominion.

I guess you missed the statement by Wayhoun that without the White, the Jem Hadar's loyality to anyone is overrated. IOW, without it they kill EVERYONE!
That's not a huge blow to the Dominion, its a huge blow to everyone.

1) You don't know that, 2) Weyoun doesn't know that, 3) If your only source is WEYOUN, well... Do I have to explain why his opinion on the matter might be not the most unbiased, even if you think he's to be trusted for some reason, 4) You claimed in your previous post that curing them of white would be good for the Dominion. That's the one thing we do know, that it would be bad for the Dominion.

In fact, didn't it occur to you that the idea that the Jem'Hadar would kill everyone indiscriminately without the white is exactly what the Founders and the Vorta wanted the Feds to think?

 

[exodus]

Uh... what?

Hello...?! The Jem'Hadar were engineered by the Founders to be addicted to the white so they would be loyal soldiers of the Dominion!

Or did you just manage to miss the whole point of the white addiction in the first place?

Curing them of white would set them free - and potentially could even mean that some, or many, could refuse to follow the Vorta's orders = a huge blow to the Dominion.

I guess you missed the statement by Wayhoun that without the White, the Jem Hadar's loyality to anyone is overrated. IOW, without it they kill EVERYONE!
That's not a huge blow to the Dominion, its a huge blow to everyone.

1) You don't know that, 2) Weyoun doesn't know that, 3) If your only source is WEYOUN, well... Do I have to explain why his opinion on the matter might be not the most unbiased, even if you think he's to be trusted for some reason, 4) You claimed in your previous post that curing them of white would be good for the Dominion. That's the one thing we do know, that it would be bad for the Dominion.

In fact, didn't it occur to you that the idea that the Jem'Hadar would kill everyone indiscriminately without the white is exactly what the Founders and the Vorta wanted the Feds to think?

Yep, that's why the Vorta in "Rocks n Shols" was terrified of the Jem Hadar he commanded because he knew just what Weyhoun did if they ran out of White. It's exactly why he made the deal with Sisko to kill his troops and except his surrender. They wouldn't of had to addict them to the White to being with, if their loyality was trust worthy.

 

[CaptainStoner]

A couple of years ago, I was in a relationship with someone that I was sure was "the one", and that relationship fell apart against my wishes (i.e. I was dumped). Was I wrong to look for someone new, someone that isn't "the one"? If I find someone one day that I love just as much (or more), if I consider that new person to be "the one", does that make me a bad person for being with someone else? Would you be disgusted by me?

Your situation isn't even comparable, don't waste my time with such crap please. We're clearly talking about a fictional situation involving a completely made up species and the special circumstances in their lives. No matter how hard you try, you can't relate it to a real life situation so don't bother.

If there is nothing even comparable, then why is it even being talked about? If nothing is comparable, what is there to be disgusted, or not disgusted, by?

 

[Alex1939]

Ezri's character grew on me BUT

it was cheap to bring in a clone character because Terry Farrell left the show (which is what happened)

it did strike me as odd at the time, that this totally separate person, gives up everything about their life, to step in the shoes of Jadzia's life. Like the OP said, sleeping with the same person, living in the near identical quarters, interacting with the same people, fighting the same war, etc. It seems highly irresponsible, given the fact she was struggling dealing with being a host, that she was put in the situation on DS9 in the first place. Maybe she should've been somewhere else in a different part of the galaxy living something more along whatever life she had been living before become a Dax.

And yes, it did strike me as creepy that Julian fell for her. Kind of like, oh he couldn't have hot Jadzia Dax... but here comes new Dax! And it's another hot chick. IT does seem like a substitute for Bashir, and it does add to the "sloppy seconds" attitude in the fact that Ezri DID sleep with Worf.

 

[TheGodBen]

They are elements of the host's personality coming through, the actual life she lived, the motions she went through every day were very similar to Jadzia, I really don't know how I can make that any clearer.

I just gave you a list of ways in which Ezri is not similar to Jadzia, and you're claiming that those prove how similar they are?

Ezri and Jadzia are different people, pretty much everyone can see this. I know that they're different because most people treat them as completely separate characters. I prefer Ezri, Rush Limborg and others love her, some people dislike her, and some people despise her, but all of us are united in one thing: We all treat Ezri and Jadzia separately because they're two different characters with different personalities that acted in different ways. Similar? Yes. The same? Absolutely not.

O'Brien and Jadzia lived similar lives anyway during the height of the dominion since they were working so closely and so often.

But they're different people, and Bashir's feelings for Jadzia were separate from his feelings for O'Brien.

My point was that as a newly joined trill, Ezri did little to differentiate herself from her previous host in the actions she took and life she assumed. Is this not blindingly obvious?

Did Ezri marry Worf? No.
Did she have bat-leth fights on the holodeck? No.
Did she listen to Klingon opera? No.
Did she wrestle? Extremely doubtful.
Did she play Tongo with Quark? Probably not.
Did she throw wild parties? No.

She moved to DS9 and became friends with Jadzia's old friends, and that's about it. She didn't take on the same role that Jadzia played, she played a different role, and her new friendships were different from the friendships that Jadzia used to have. You may as well have claimed that Ezri was trying to replace O'Brien. (Which she actually did in terms of screentime.)

Could you please pay attention rather than looking for ways to get a laugh?

I can do both.

Your situation isn't even comparable, don't waste my time with such crap please. We're clearly talking about a fictional situation involving a completely made up species and the special circumstances in their lives.

It is comparable because I view Jadzia and Ezri as two separate personalities, thus they are two separate people. From my perspective, the two situations are one and the same.

No matter how hard you try, you can't relate it to a real life situation so don't bother.

I already did with the sister analogy, it's not my fault if you chose to ignore it.

But let's try another hypothetical scenario: When Tuvok and Neelix merged and became Tuvix, Kes considered having a relationship with him because he reminded her of Neelix. Ultimately, she chose not to pursue that relationship, but if she had, would she have been wrong?

 

[Praxius]

He was generally annoying but harmless over the years but actually ending up with Ezri Dax soured me on him completely.
It really did appear as a case of him getting sloppy seconds, I can't believe the writers put him with her, it made my skin crawl.
If I was Worf I woulda just killed him somehow.

Jadzia was full of herself (though I still liked her character) she acted more mature then Bashir, she thought of him as a little kid still growing up, which he was really, but he just played with him and enjoyed stringing him along..... their personalities just didn't work, though he was still fascinated by Jadzia.

Ezri was for the most part, a completely different Dax, both in body and frame of mind.... she wasn't sure of herself, she rambled on like Bashir did when he first got onto DS9, Bashir was also more grown up and went through a lot of things over the years that matured him more..... for the most part, the roles reversed..... the only difference was that Bashir didn't treat her like an outcast when she first came on board like most of the other crew and he treated her like a human being, not just like some other hot looking woman like he did with Jadzia.

Jadzia still had a strong connection to Klingon beliefs and their way of life..... Ezri didn't and she was more connected towards mental health and such similar to Bashir......

Besides, everybody on that show eventually dated or married someone..... EXCEPT Bashir..... by the time Season 6 rolled around, Bashir was running around looking for people to hang out with and do something with, yet O'Brien was spending time with his wife, Sisko was with Yates, Odo and Kira were starting their relationship, Dax had Worf, Hell Rom had Lela..... and poor Bashir was all alone with nobody..... it was so bad that he even tried to brain fix what's her name who was genetically modified.... and that flopped.

Granted, in the first two seasons, I couldn't stand Bashir.... but near the end of the series, I was feeling sorry for him being all alone and by himself for pretty much 7 years straight.

And who was Ezri going to hook up with?

Quark?

Me thinks not.

And why should she remain single anyways?

Just because Jadzia was married to Worf, doesn't mean Ezri was off limited until she died..... she had her own life to live and quite honestly, by the end of the series, Ezri and Bashir made more sense then Bashir and Jadzia.

Sloppy seconds is if you bang the same girl after you friend does. Ezri is a complete & totally different person in every way. If Julian was getting Worf's sloppy seconds, he'd be a necrophealiac and that would be really disgusting.

Actually it wasn't until after Ezri did Worf in the woods and got caught by the Dominion and drugged that she realized she liked Bashir...... Worf still tapped her before Bashir did... in both cases

Just not five minutes before Bashir did.

 

[Rush Limborg]

I'm pretty neutral about Julian Bashir; he seems like a decent caring person to me.

But I have to admit I just noticed this about Ezri.

As Kestrel, and You will Fail pointed out, Ezri before the Trill transplant, had to have been leading a very different life before that.

With the transplant, she suddenly leaves her ship and post, meets Sisko, goes to DS9, gets a quick promotion, encounters various situations and people and later ends up sleeping with Worf then Julian.

Talk about a serious 90 degree turn.

This is just out of curiosity about how so many changes affected Ezri.

If Ezri adds some parts of her own personality to this symbiosis, then will the relationship last?

Well, it's worth noting that, in "Once More Unto The Breach", Ezri specifically said to Kira that she was setting herself apart from her previous hosts.

Also, you're just being obnoxiously obtuse with the Curzon comparison and you know it.

Is he? Curzon was a lover of all things Klingon - Jadzia was a lover of all things Klingon. Curzon was a hard partier - Jadzia was a hard partier. Curzon served as a wise old man - Jadzia served in the same function. Curzon was Sisko's best friend - Jadzia was Sisko's best friend. Curzon could be rude, obnoxious, full of himself, heavy-handed, argumentative, and supremely self-absorbed - Jadzia was also all of those things.

Seems clear to me that Jadiza was simply slipping back into Curzon's life. Then again, this wouldn't be first time Dax had done something similiar. Both Lela and Audrid were politicians.

Under your own logic you should hold this against Jadzia the same way you hold it against Ezri. Did she slip back into Jadzia's life? Yes, of course. Does that mean she's the same person? No, of course not. Jadzia was different from Curzon (for instance, Sisko says Jadzia isn't AS argumentative as Curzon was in Broken Link). Ezri was just as different from Jadzia (as others have said, her attitude wasn't confrontational and her treatment of men was much better).

Also, as others have said, it was Worf who constantly wanted to see Jadzia in Ezri, not Bashir. Worf treated her like Jadzia II from the moment she came to the station.

Thank you, Shran. Excellent points, all.

If anything, Ezri is immesely more different from Jadzia than Jadzia from Curzon.

So, it doesn't bother me that Bashir ended up with Ezri the same way it bothers you. It bothers me that he, instead of Quark, ended up with her.

Yeah...outta curiosity, what did you see in the concept of Ezri/Quark?

I agree that it was a nice, sweet moment when Ezri kissed him on the cheek (granting him immortality in the process), and said, "You're a real sweetheart."

Still...I sincerely doubt anything would have worked out between the two....

 

[Praxius]

Ezri may have had a different personality, but there is really no doubting that she basically just assumed Jadzia's life. Newly joined trills aren't really supposed to work and the same place and hang out with ALL the same people the previous host did. What does it say about Ezri as a person that she can't even carve out her own identity but basically does what Jadzia had been doing for the past 6 years?

First off, she wanted to visit her old friend Sisko, which Dax kept as a close friend in two previous lives, so you can't blame her for that unless you also blame Jadzia and Curzon.

Secondly, she didn't want to remain on DS9 in the first place.... Sisko asked her and asked her to stay as station's councilor.... so obviously she wasn't doing what Jadzia had been doing for the past 6 years because she wasn't the science officer, was she?

I don't remember anything about Joined Trills not being allowed to hang out with their old friends or to work in the same place as before.... they're not supposed to get involved in previous intimate relationships.... that's it.

Jadzia in season one clearly stated that previous friendships don't normally last beyond the last host due to the drastic changes in appearance and personality..... there's nothing about those friendships must end once the last host dies.

The sister anaology is ridiculous as the relationship between sisters isn't anything like the relationship between hosts. Ezri had ALL of Jadzia's memories and even feelings.

Irrelevant, she had a completely different personality, her self confidence was completely different, what she specialized in was completely different and considering Jadzia didn't have the memories of Ezri growing up, but Ezri did..... that alone tells you she's a completely different person for the most part, just as Jadzia was completely different from Curzon.

Julian never got in with Jadzia-Dax so he gets in with Ezri-Dax, her inferior successor, it really disgusts me that he could be such a creep. I believe sloppy seconds perfectly describes what Julian got, although in an unconventional way.

And I think you're placing flawed blame on two people who don't deserve it because you liked Jadzia more then Ezri, like most fans did.

I didn't care for her when she first replaced Jadzia, but after watching through the series a second and then a third time.... I picked up on a number of things I missed the first time and you know what? I appreciate her character just as much as I did with Jadzia.

The only reason she seemed inferior was because she had the host thrown on her with zero preparation, unlike Jadzia which took her time to figure out herself, these new memories and how to deal with past friendships & relationships..... and let's not forget that even Jadzia had self confidence issues, especially after Curzon rejected her as a candidate the first time and she never knew why.

 

[Terengo]

Ezri may have had a different personality, but there is really no doubting that she basically just assumed Jadzia's life. Newly joined trills aren't really supposed to work and the same place and hang out with ALL the same people the previous host did. What does it say about Ezri as a person that she can't even carve out her own identity but basically does what Jadzia had been doing for the past 6 years?

Wasn't Ezri totally unprepared for the joining? Trills are supposed to train for years to accept a symbiont. Ezri just happened to be a conveniently available Trill that they used as a last-ditch effort to save Dax. It doesn't surprise me at all that her post-joining life wasn't typical for a Trill.

 

[DevilEyes]

I guess you missed the statement by Wayhoun that without the White, the Jem Hadar's loyality to anyone is overrated. IOW, without it they kill EVERYONE!
That's not a huge blow to the Dominion, its a huge blow to everyone.

1) You don't know that, 2) Weyoun doesn't know that, 3) If your only source is WEYOUN, well... Do I have to explain why his opinion on the matter might be not the most unbiased, even if you think he's to be trusted for some reason, 4) You claimed in your previous post that curing them of white would be good for the Dominion. That's the one thing we do know, that it would be bad for the Dominion.

In fact, didn't it occur to you that the idea that the Jem'Hadar would kill everyone indiscriminately without the white is exactly what the Founders and the Vorta wanted the Feds to think?

Yep, that's why the Vorta in "Rocks n Shols" was terrified of the Jem Hadar he commanded because he knew just what Weyhoun did if they ran out of White. It's exactly why he made the deal with Sisko to kill his troops and except his surrender. They wouldn't of had to addict them to the White to being with, if their loyality was trust worthy.

So your point is that whatever is bad for the Vorta, has to be bad for the Federation as well?

 

[exodus]

1) You don't know that, 2) Weyoun doesn't know that, 3) If your only source is WEYOUN, well... Do I have to explain why his opinion on the matter might be not the most unbiased, even if you think he's to be trusted for some reason, 4) You claimed in your previous post that curing them of white would be good for the Dominion. That's the one thing we do know, that it would be bad for the Dominion.

In fact, didn't it occur to you that the idea that the Jem'Hadar would kill everyone indiscriminately without the white is exactly what the Founders and the Vorta wanted the Feds to think?

Yep, that's why the Vorta in "Rocks n Shols" was terrified of the Jem Hadar he commanded because he knew just what Weyhoun did if they ran out of White. It's exactly why he made the deal with Sisko to kill his troops and except his surrender. They wouldn't of had to addict them to the White to being with, if their loyality was trust worthy.

So your point is that whatever is bad for the Vorta, has to be bad for the Federation as well?

No, that would just be your lack of comprehension.

 

[TheGodBen]

I don't remember anything about Joined Trills not being allowed to hang out with their old friends or to work in the same place as before.... they're not supposed to get involved in previous intimate relationships.... that's it.

And even that rule came across as a backward social stigma that had everything to do with society's view of what's acceptable and very little to do with what's ethical. If anyone came away from Rejoined thinking that the stigma is right and that these two people shouldn't be together because societal constraints demand it, then I fear they came away from it with a dangerous point of view.

 

[flemm]

And who was Ezri going to hook up with?

Jake would have been the most interesting option, I think. Ezri's quite young (though struggling to deal with the "old man" part of her joined personality); Jake's all grown up by season seven and desperately searching for a character arc of some kind. Becoming the man in Ezri's life would have made a lot of sense for Jake, I think, at least potentially.

Bashir and Ezri getting together always felt like an uninspired choice to me. Not repulsive or jarring in any way, just a bit perfunctory and meaningless. In contrast to Rush, I found the "infamous" Worlds of DS9 scene to be a perfectly natural extension of what we had seen on the show. A "rebound" relationship of sorts for Dax, though the rebound in this case is from the life of a prior host.

 

[DevilEyes]

Yep, that's why the Vorta in "Rocks n Shols" was terrified of the Jem Hadar he commanded because he knew just what Weyhoun did if they ran out of White. It's exactly why he made the deal with Sisko to kill his troops and except his surrender. They wouldn't of had to addict them to the White to being with, if their loyality was trust worthy.

So your point is that whatever is bad for the Vorta, has to be bad for the Federation as well?

No, that would just be your lack of comprehension.

Of what, your logical arguments?

Let's summarize:
- fact: the Jem'Hadar were engineered by the Founders to be addicted to the Ketracel white
- fact: addiction to the white is something that the Founders and Vorta use to control the Jem'Hadar and ensure their loyalty
- fact: without the Jem'Hadar, the Dominion wouldn't have its army to fight its war
- fact: the Dominion was the main threat in the Alpha Quadrant and the main enemy of the Federation and a war was expected to break out
- your argument is that Bashir would be helping the Dominion and hurting the Federation by curing the Jem'Hadar of the white, and your evidence is...drum roll...
- that the Vorta were terrified of the Jem'Hadar running out of white