the logic of the Star Wars cosmos

[Hound of UIster]

One thing to keep in mind is that there really is no such thing as the light and dark sides

Yes, there really is such thing.

Actually there is no light side, what the EU calls the light side is the Force proper.

 

[Goliath]

Well then ignore the stuff that doesn't make sense and just talk about the stuff that you like and think should be kept.

I can't believe you just said that to a Trekkie.

Would you like me to kill my Dad and have sex with my Mom while I'm at it?

 

[iguana_tonante]

^ I just had the vision of Oedipus Rex as the best time-travel story evah.

 

[Goliath]

A guy kills his father and marries his mother--then, consumed with guilt, builds a time machine and travels back in time--becomes his own father--travels forward in time--has a sex-change--travels back in time again--and becomes his own mother--so that in the end, he has sex with himself, gives birth to himself, kills himself, and marries himself?

 

[iguana_tonante]

You have a sick mind. That's why we love you.

 

[DWF]

A guy kills his father and marries his mother--then, consumed with guilt, builds a time machine and travels back in time--becomes his own father--travels forward in time--has a sex-change--travels back in time again--and becomes his own mother--so that in the end, he has sex with himself, gives birth to himself, kills himself, and marries himself?

That almost sounds like an ep. of Red Dwarf.

 

[Anwar]

A guy kills his father and marries his mother--then, consumed with guilt, builds a time machine and travels back in time--becomes his own father--travels forward in time--has a sex-change--travels back in time again--and becomes his own mother--so that in the end, he has sex with himself, gives birth to himself, kills himself, and marries himself?

Isn't that a Robert Heinlein story?

 

[Goliath]

A guy kills his father and marries his mother--then, consumed with guilt, builds a time machine and travels back in time--becomes his own father--travels forward in time--has a sex-change--travels back in time again--and becomes his own mother--so that in the end, he has sex with himself, gives birth to himself, kills himself, and marries himself?

Isn't that a Robert Heinlein story?

Sort of. Heinlein wrote a story about a hermaphrodite who becomes his/her own mother and father called "--All You Zombies--." I've never actually read it, but I read about it years ago.

So: Aeschylus + Heinlein = Red Dwarf.

 

[iguana_tonante]

So: Aeschylus + Heinlein = Red Dwarf.

Thank kind of makes sense.

 

[Goliath]

^More sense than the Force in the prequel trilogy.

*Gets back on topic, with a rimshot*

 

[Set Harth]

Actually there is no light side, what the EU calls the light side is the Force proper.

Potato, potatto. ( Though I've always hated that expression... I mean, who the hell says "potatto"? )

 

[Temis the Vorta]

One character resents this tremendously, saying that its constant attempts at "balance" kill billions and the galaxy would be far better off without it.

The balance stuff and the non-personalized divinity as it were is eastern, Taoist specifically.

That seems like the most appealing and interesting interpretation, Lucas' later back-peddling notwithstanding. I think as a good liberal, Lucas got cold feet about the implications of the good/evil balance - how inherently amoral it is - and tried to change things in the PT.

Trouble is, the good/evil balance is a key reason why Star Wars is interesting and distinct from everything else, such as Star Trek, where the rules of the game are that Starfleet spreads democracy throughout the cosmos, that's a good thing, and the universe doesn't take sides. I love Star Trek but I want Star Wars to retain its distinct identity.

If the Force knows the difference between good and evil, it has a consciousness of some sort, or else it couldn't work the way it does. A consciousness very different from human intelligence, but you'd expect that. It's not like you'd find in concepts of equillibrium of the natural world, which works like a machine and no intelligence is required.

Here's another issue to ponder: does the good/evil balance of the Force represent the cosmos sending a message to all the little sentient beings scrambling around in it to just stop fighting already? In the PT, the Jedi were powerful, and the Force sided with the Sith. The Jedi had set up the preconditions for their defeat by being powerful. When Anakin and the Emperor slaughtered the Jedi, they set up the preconditions for their own defeat. What a farce, yet nobody seems to be clued in what's going on! To win, you must lose. How very zen.

It does no good to resent the Force's continued attempts to balance good and evil because there's no way to change it. You may as well resent water for running downhill. The only rational response is to understand it and deal with it - by ceasing to resist it at all.

Give in to the Dark Side is good advice after all!

 

[iguana_tonante]

Actually, I think it's "potayto, potahto", referring to two different ways of pronouncing the same word: the first with an "ay" sound, the second with an "ah" sound.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

And if I lived there, then when it came to the question of religion, I'd have to side with Han.

Yeah, it's all pretty appalling when you scratch the surface, isn't it? Unless you delve even deeper and conclude that both the Jedi and the Sith would be better off ceasing to struggle and fight. The Force wants the balance of statis - not the back-and-forth which blows up planets and kills millions.

The Jedi and Sith should achieve parity and then do nothing to change the equation by fighting or otherwise seeking power. They should go live in caves somewhere. If that's what the Force wants, then the Force is pretty smart. And it makes a good premise for the whole saga because we all know mere mortals lack the wisdom and self-control to accept this course of action, so the farcical tragedy continues indefinitely.

But the idea that the Force is the Light Side only strikes me as a cop-out, too boring and unchallenging to conventional notions of Western morality. Star Wars originally included Eastern concepts that are foreign and perhaps frightening to Western notions of morality. Good! Let's not run away from that.

 

[DWF]

One character resents this tremendously, saying that its constant attempts at "balance" kill billions and the galaxy would be far better off without it.

The balance stuff and the non-personalized divinity as it were is eastern, Taoist specifically.

That seems like the most appealing and interesting interpretation, Lucas' later back-peddling notwithstanding. I think as a good liberal, Lucas got cold feet about the implications of the good/evil balance - how inherently amoral it is - and tried to change things in the PT.

Why blame Lucas for the Taost direction of the Force? There's plenty of evdience that it came from Kasdan and Lucas just followed suit

 

[Temis the Vorta]

One character resents this tremendously, saying that its constant attempts at "balance" kill billions and the galaxy would be far better off without it.

The balance stuff and the non-personalized divinity as it were is eastern, Taoist specifically.

That seems like the most appealing and interesting interpretation, Lucas' later back-peddling notwithstanding. I think as a good liberal, Lucas got cold feet about the implications of the good/evil balance - how inherently amoral it is - and tried to change things in the PT.

Why blame Lucas for the Taost direction of the Force? There's plenty of evdience that it came from Kasdan and Lucas just followed suit

I'm not blaming anyone for that - I think that approach is the right one. And if Kasdan came up with it, then that explains why Lucas is frakking it all up now.

 

[DWF]

That seems like the most appealing and interesting interpretation, Lucas' later back-peddling notwithstanding. I think as a good liberal, Lucas got cold feet about the implications of the good/evil balance - how inherently amoral it is - and tried to change things in the PT.

Why blame Lucas for the Taost direction of the Force? There's plenty of evdience that it came from Kasdan and Lucas just followed suit

I'm not blaming anyone for that - I think that approach is the right one. And if Kasdan came up with it, then that explains why Lucas is frakking it all up now.

It's not "frakked up" you just don't quite get Lucas' use of the Force.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.05/lucas.html?pg=3

The rabbit hole goes even deeper: One of the audio sources Lipsett sampled for 21-87 was a conversation between artificial intelligence pioneer Warren S. McCulloch and Roman Kroitor, a cinematographer who went on to develop Imax. In the face of McCulloch's arguments that living beings are nothing but highly complex machines, Kroitor insists that there is something more: "Many people feel that in the contemplation of nature and in communication with other living things, they become aware of some kind of force, or something, behind this apparent mask which we see in front of us, and they call it God."
When asked if this was the source of "the Force," Lucas confirms that his use of the term in Star Wars was "an echo of that phrase in 21-87." The idea behind it, however, was universal: "Similar phrases have been used extensively by many different people for the last 13,000 years to describe the 'life force,'" he says.

 

[fett51]

According to George Lucas balance means minimal dark side. Imbalance is the situation in the prequels where "the dark side clouds everything" in the words of one certain jedi.

How does minimal dark side constitute balance? In that situation Sith would presumably say "the light side clouds everything." Dave Filoni said they were going to address the prophecy about Anakin and what "balance of the force" means in the upcoming season of clone wars, so I guess we'll see exactly what he means there.

If the Force knows the difference between good and evil, it has a consciousness of some sort, or else it couldn't work the way it does. A consciousness very different from human intelligence, but you'd expect that. It's not like you'd find in concepts of equillibrium of the natural world, which works like a machine and no intelligence is required.

Does it? A bacteria can tell the difference between too hot and too cold and move accordingly. Doesn't mean it's conscious in the manner we are, just means it's alive. With the light side and the dark side, the difference is the intent with which people touch the force - all the consciousness the force requires to develop a sense of equilibrium is to be able to tell the two apart.

I assume the inevitability of their loss has occurred to them, however it took the Sith 1,000 years to overcome the Jedi after their prior defeat. As for the character who resented the force, she didn't just resent it...she was out to kill it entirely. She's stopped obviously, but that's a crisis I wouldn't mind seeing thrown at either the new or old jedi orders.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

It's not "frakked up" you just don't quite get Lucas' use of the Force.

I just don't like his use of the Force. He's just imposing conventional Western notions of morality on the Star Wars universe, but if he was never the originator of the more interesting ideas about Eastern philosophy, then it's no wonder. It's not like I respect his writing overall, anyway.

That quote is about the idea of the Force as a "life force" - okay by me - but does that mean that the life force underlying all beings is a balance between good and evil, which can get out of balance in anyone? That seems intuitively correct.

How does minimal dark side constitute balance? In that situation Sith would presumably say "the light side clouds everything." Dave Filoni said they were going to address the prophecy about Anakin and what "balance of the force" means in the upcoming season of clone wars, so I guess we'll see exactly what he means there.

Interesting, I guess now is a good time for me to catch up with Clone Wars.

A bacteria can tell the difference between too hot and too cold and move accordingly. Doesn't mean it's conscious in the manner we are, just means it's alive. With the light side and the dark side, the difference is the intent with which people touch the force - all the consciousness the force requires to develop a sense of equilibrium is to be able to tell the two apart.

The bacteria has evolved to move away from heat because bacteria that don't do that die and don't have offspring. That's a machine-like process that requires no outside intelligence. But there's no way for "good" and "evil" to become part of a natural system unless there's an intelligence that can distinguish between good and evil.

As you say, the key is "intent" - the bacteria has no intent to move away from the heat. That's just how it's evolved because its ancestors did that. Intent implies consciousness.

As for the character who resented the force, she didn't just resent it...she was out to kill it entirely.

How could you even begin to accomplish such a thing? Isn't that like trying to "kill" electromagnetism or gravity?

 

[fett51]

The bacteria has evolved to move away from heat because bacteria that don't do that die and don't have offspring. That's a machine-like process that requires no outside intelligence. But there's no way for "good" and "evil" to become part of a natural system unless there's an intelligence that can distinguish between good and evil.

As you say, the key is "intent" - the bacteria has no intent to move away from the heat. That's just how it's evolved because its ancestors did that. Intent implies consciousness.

I wasn't thinking in terms of universal good or evil there, more like, if someone is touching the force, to say electrocute Luke, they're using it to harm and kill. It can feel the anger and hate one is using to access it for those ends. If someone is using it on the other hand to heal or save, it feels the intent in that too. The idea of it having a natural sense of equilibrium comes from that the force is generated by all living things - presumably since before there were jedi or sith using it for their own ends. I don't think it has any real kind of intelligence beyond that because if its aim is to achieve balance, it's not very good at it.

As for the character who resented the force, she didn't just resent it...she was out to kill it entirely.

How could you even begin to accomplish such a thing? Isn't that like trying to "kill" electromagnetism or gravity?

Well, given that it's generated by living things, one could simply kill everything and there'd be no more force. But that wasn't her plan - given that we know that certain places can be strong in the dark or light side, like the dark side cave on Dagobah, the game's writers posited that places like that are in fact a wound in the force, left by a strong dark or light side action. In the EU at least, it's possible to cut someone off from the force, and one Jedi in the game cut themselves off from the force upon sensing an event similar to the destruction of Alderaan, and the game said that left a wound in the force too - one where no force existed, a dead spot. Her plan was to expand that wound to encompass the entire galaxy.