the logic of the Star Wars cosmos

[FluffyUnbound]

The Force was a much cleaner concept in ANH.

Based on what Kenobi has to say, the Force is really no more than a transcendant meta-reality underlying our "apparent" reality in the same way that Plato's Forms lie under the "world of appearance".

Some individuals are able to directly access this meta-reality, and that allows them to do fun things like fight with a lightsaber while wearing a blast helmet or make amazing shots without a fire control computer or make objects fly through the air.

In this view of the Force, the "Dark Side" wouldn't be a distinct element of the Force at all, but merely a human way of interacting with the Force - by using it to destroy. The "Dark Side" is powerful and tempting because human beings are destructive creatures, so using the force in this way both appeals to us irresistibly and is easier for us than more positive uses. This easiness makes the "Dark Side" appear to be a more powerful mode of employing the Force.

The prequels and the EU really screwed up a pretty simple concept.

 

[stj]

In Star Wars, Kenobi salutes Vader, who strikes the unresisting Obi-Wan. There is no body! Where ever did it go? It was no surprise at all to hear Kenobi's voice prompting Luke later on, nor was it surprising later to see his apparition. I don't think this turn of events isreconcilable with any simple and straightforward concept of the Force. The Force has a Heaven? How does that connect to life?

The tree where Luke meets a vision of "Vader," whom he kills but which turns out to be himself, was said, if I recall correctly, to be some sort of haunt of the dark side of the Force. True, the whole scene is about Luke's insides, but a tree with the dark side of the Force?

I don't understand why people are so insistent that the Force didn't get crazy until the prequels. Is there such a desperate need for magic that the word "midichlorians" was like being stabbed in the heart? Or is it some obsession with bashing the prequels? Nor do I quite understand why no one thinks the dark side of the Force might not have something to do with either death (imagined as some sort of moral necessity,) or unnatural extension of life.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

One thing I never understood- when they found little annikan they said he was the one who would bring balance to the force.

If i am one of hundreds/thousands of jedi and there are no sith that i am aware of - balance is the last thing i would be looking for. I think i won. Or if there are sith- balance would mean they gain and I lose.

Balance is bad, not good. Defeating the Sith is not balance, bringing down the Jedi would be.

Seems like a really bad idea to me....

Just more evidence that the Jedi are in deep, deep denial about the Force. They know the Force wants balance. They pay lip service to this notion but their behavior is the polar opposite. The Force gets angry at them for blocking its will and decides to restore balance on its own, and humiliate the Jedi by arranging for the Sith to wipe them out in a way that makes the Jedi just look like total chumps for letting it happen.

Vader and the Emperor, otoh, never blathered about "balance." They were after power, plain and simple, making them better than the Jedi in terms of hypocrisy. But they got too much power and once again, the Force stepped in. Neither the Jedi nor the Sith have a frakkin' clue why this keeps happening. Star Wars is a comedic farce!

In part, this was why Lucas changed the concept of 'balance' from being a taoist-like equilibrium between good-evil to meaning only 'good', light side with no 'bad', dark side.

Yeah he changed it from something that makes sense if you squint and stand on one foot, but at least isn't used in every story out there, to something that is blandly uninteresting. The good guys fight for good because it's good! Wow. Let me write that one down.

Which just goes to show that, for the Jedi at least, balance didn't mean a balance the light side and the dark side, but rather that the light side was itself a balance between dark side extremes.

The spectrum isn't "light - dark" it's "dark- light- dark"

I'm not sure I even know what this means, but I'll give it a shot...so if you chop off the light on either side, you just get dark in the middle and isn't that balanced then? The Dark Side is balanced in and of itself!

Based on what Kenobi has to say, the Force is really no more than a transcendant meta-reality underlying our "apparent" reality in the same way that Plato's Forms lie under the "world of appearance".

Some individuals are able to directly access this meta-reality, and that allows them to do fun things like fight with a lightsaber while wearing a blast helmet or make amazing shots without a fire control computer or make objects fly through the air.

In this view of the Force, the "Dark Side" wouldn't be a distinct element of the Force at all, but merely a human way of interacting with the Force - by using it to destroy. The "Dark Side" is powerful and tempting because human beings are destructive creatures, so using the force in this way both appeals to us irresistibly and is easier for us than more positive uses. This easiness makes the "Dark Side" appear to be a more powerful mode of employing the Force.

Yep, that all sounds perfectly right and workable to me! I'll just ignore all the subsequent mucking around that made a nice, clean, concept so convoluted and unworkable.

The question still remains whether the Force is intelligent. Either it is, and that's why it can respond to the difference between moral judgments of good and evil, or people evolved to synch up with the Force in such a way that their own moral judgments match the "poles" that naturally occur in the Force.

Maybe where the whole thing went off the rails was introducing the idea that the Force "wants" to be balanced. Why would a blind force of nature care if its powers were used to blow up planets or give homes to orphaned kittens and puppies?

However, here's what the balance idea has going for it: it provides a challenging factor that mucks up the traditional "hero" story in a way that has the potential to be more interesting. Now the job of the hero is not to win, but to somehow come into balance with his foe. Not something your standard audience will easily sympathize with, but I like seeing writers take up a challenge.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I always thought that "balance to the Force" was more of a blatant term used by the Jedi to refer to the long term conflict between them and the Sith. I don't think Lucas ever intended deep philosophical discussions debating what that particular term meant.

As for where Obi-Wan went...this was obviously meant to be interpreted as Qui-Jon's concept of the "living force" something that when he was a Padawan Leaner Obi-Wan had struggled to find the meaning of. It wasn't until he was an aged Master himself that he probably learned what his old master was talking about. I don't think it would be far fetched to think that mastery of the "living force" is something that has eluded the Sith Order over the centuries who are more concerned with power and who are unable to pass over into whatever this realm is...with perhaps the exception of a few very powerful Sith Lord's who in the EU seem to have used Korriban's aura to continue to influence events or Exar Kun who was able to survive on Yavin.

 

[Silvercrest]

The tree where Luke meets a vision of "Vader," whom he kills but which turns out to be himself, was said, if I recall correctly, to be some sort of haunt of the dark side of the Force. True, the whole scene is about Luke's insides, but a tree with the dark side of the Force?

This is a deep allegorical reference to another work of fiction with a similar world-view. In fact, the characters resemble each other to such a degree that I'm surprised it hasn't been brought up. Everyone I know agrees with me. Or at least I think they would, if I brought it up.

Basically, it boils down to Luke = Charlie Brown. Leia = Lucy. Yoda = Linus. Vader = Snoopy. And so on. The tree, of course, is the Kite-Eating Tree.

It's so obvious! I'm surprised that Charles Schulz didn't sue.

 

[Lindley]

The tree where Luke meets a vision of "Vader," whom he kills but which turns out to be himself, was said, if I recall correctly, to be some sort of haunt of the dark side of the Force. True, the whole scene is about Luke's insides, but a tree with the dark side of the Force?

The Thrawn trilogy strongly implies the area is a focus of the dark side because a Dark Jedi died there (presumably killed by Yoda, although that isn't stated explicitly). That the tree was so warped and deformed was a result of the dark side energy, not the cause.

 

[T'Baio]

Also, in one of the "Jedi Apprentice" books a scientist finds out that when you use the Force your core body temperature drops, suggesting that the Force is somehow transffering your internal heat energy into external kinetic energy. This would also explain why it is easier to use the dark side since aggressive feelings like rage tend to get your heart pumping, raising your body temperature quickly.

To paraphrase Yoda;

"And this...is why the EU fails."

 

[Myasishchev]

I always thought that "balance to the Force" was more of a blatant term used by the Jedi to refer to the long term conflict between them and the Sith. I don't think Lucas ever intended deep philosophical discussions debating what that particular term meant.

As for where Obi-Wan went...this was obviously meant to be interpreted as Qui-Jon's concept of the "living force" something that when he was a Padawan Leaner Obi-Wan had struggled to find the meaning of. It wasn't until he was an aged Master himself that he probably learned what his old master was talking about.

I love how awkwardly the reference in RotS is thrown in, too. Like, make a little more obvious that you just forgot about it, George.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Where was the "balance the Force" idea introduced? In the OT, PT or maybe EU?

 

[Hound of UIster]

Lucas

 

[Hound of UIster]

How does minimal dark side constitute balance? In that situation Sith would presumably say "the light side clouds everything."

What the EU calls "the Light Side" is the Force.

The Dark Side in Lucas's pov is imbalance

His comparison with the Force/the Light Side or the Universe as an organism. The Dark Side is then suppose to be cancer.

Balance in this sense means no dark side and the Force or the Light ascendent.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Balance in this sense means no dark side and the Force or the Light ascendent.

Which of course is stupid. What's the "balance" in that? What's unique or interesting about it? The Jedi just do the same shit Starfleet does - run around the galaxy with their snoots in the air, bossing everyone and imposing their brand of morality. (I'd pay real money to see Starfleet and the Jedi run across each other someday and watch them try to out-holier-than-thou the other guys.)

If the Jedi were somehow constrained from always trying to "win" and instead had to understand and implement some mystical, zen type of "winning through losing," that would be kinda cool. Why just duplicate Star Trek? Star Wars should at least attempt to be its own thing.

 

[DWF]

Balance in this sense means no dark side and the Force or the Light ascendent.

Which of course is stupid. What's the "balance" in that? What's unique or interesting about it? The Jedi just do the same shit Starfleet does - run around the galaxy with their snoots in the air, bossing everyone and imposing their brand of morality. (I'd pay real money to see Starfleet and the Jedi run across each other someday and watch them try to out-holier-than-thou the other guys.)

If the Jedi were somehow constrained from always trying to "win" and instead had to understand and implement some mystical, zen type of "winning through losing," that would be kinda cool. Why just duplicate Star Trek? Star Wars should at least attempt to be its own thing.

No, it's not stupid at all it's all part of the Taost philosophy of the Force of having good and evil in Jedi and not having it seperated. It's the Yin-Yang part of the philosophy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang

The Yin/Yang symbol is one of the oldest and best-known life symbols in the world, but few understand its full meaning. It represents one of the most fundamental and profound theories of ancient Taoist philosophy. At its heart are the two poles of existence, which are opposite but complementary. The light, white Yang moving up blends into the dark, black Yin moving down. Yin and Yang are dependent opposing forces that flow in a natural cycle, always seeking balance. Though they are opposing, they are not in opposition to one another. As part of the Tao, they are merely two aspects of a single reality. Each contains the seed of the other, which is why we see a black spot of Yin in the white Yang and vice versa. They do not merely replace each other but actually become each other through the constant flow of the universe.

And IMO makes perfect sense. While the Sith were seperated from the Jedi the Yin and Yang were seperated as well, Anakin accepted both sides with his love for Luke, he couldn't just stand while his son was killed in front of him.

Or as Lucas explained.

Many fans incorrectly assume that balance refers to an equal mix of both light and dark side users. However, as George Lucas explains in the introductory documentary for the VHS version A New Hope, Special Edition, this is not the case:
"The first film starts with the last age of the Republic, which is it's getting tired, it's old, it's getting corrupt. There's the rise of the Sith, who are Many fans incorrectly assume that balance refers to an equal mix of both light and dark side users. However, as George Lucas explains in the introductory documentary for the VHS version A New Hope, Special Edition, this is not the case:
"The first film starts with the last age of the Republic, which is it's getting tired, it's old, it's getting corrupt. There's the rise of the Sith, who are becoming a force, and in the backdrop of this we have Anakin Skywalker, a young boy who is destined to be a significant player in bringing balance back to the Force and to the Republic... Then in the second film we get into more of that turmoil. It's the beginning of the Clone Wars, it's the beginning of the end of democracy in the Republic, sort of the beginning of the end of the Republic. And it's Anakin Skywalker beginning to deal with some of his more intense emotions of anger, hatred, sense of loss, possessiveness, jealousy, and the other things he has to cope with. And then we will get to the 3rd film where he is seduced to the dark side.. Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."

 

[Admiral_Young]

I believe that the concept of "Balancing the Force" was introduced in the Phantom Menace and is attributed to the quote regarding the "Chosen One" i.e. "The Chosen One is meant to bring balance to the Force."

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Which of course is stupid. What's the "balance" in that? What's unique or interesting about it? The Jedi just do the same shit Starfleet does - run around the galaxy with their snoots in the air, bossing everyone and imposing their brand of morality. (I'd pay real money to see Starfleet and the Jedi run across each other someday and watch them try to out-holier-than-thou the other guys.)

Unique - maybe not. But then again, neither is good-evil taoist balance.
But neither is it stupid or non-interesting - as proven by star trek and other productions.

Of course, Lucas stumbling over his own words, using 'balance' and then trying to retcon the hell out of the word - and still failing to come up with someting that actually makes sense (convoluted fan explanations aside) - and all this in a hundred million dollar production IS STUPID.

No, it's not stupid at all it's all part of the Taost philosophy of the Force of having good and evil in Jedi and not having it seperated. It's the Yin-Yang part of the philosophy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang

In taoism, 'balance' means a balance between yin and yang, good and evil.
For Lucas, 'balance' means only good - definitely NOT taoism.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Again I'm sure that Lucas sole meaning for the use of that phrase was to relay the importance of Anakin to the Jedi Order as well as foreshadowing his eventual downfall and corruption into the Sith Lord Darth Vader. Whatever else has been implied by the phrase can probably be contributed to the EU or other stories that has forced George to explain himself which of course doesn't always come across as what he originally intended. I once again suggest downloading "The Secret History of Star Wars" for a further inspection on Lucas's revisionist history concerning his creation.

 

[DWF]

Which of course is stupid. What's the "balance" in that? What's unique or interesting about it? The Jedi just do the same shit Starfleet does - run around the galaxy with their snoots in the air, bossing everyone and imposing their brand of morality. (I'd pay real money to see Starfleet and the Jedi run across each other someday and watch them try to out-holier-than-thou the other guys.)

Unique - maybe not. But then again, neither is good-evil taoist balance.
But neither is it stupid or non-interesting - as proven by star trek and other productions.

Of course, Lucas stumbling over his own words, using 'balance' and then trying to retcon the hell out of the word - and still failing to come up with someting that actually makes sense (convoluted fan explanations aside) - and all this in a hundred million dollar production IS STUPID.

No, it's not stupid at all it's all part of the Taost philosophy of the Force of having good and evil in Jedi and not having it seperated. It's the Yin-Yang part of the philosophy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang

In taoism, 'balance' means a balance between yin and yang, good and evil.
For Lucas, 'balance' means only good - definitely NOT taoism.

There is no good and evil in Taoism just as in the end good and evil in the Force is a choice and Luke choose not to e converted to the dark side, even though he used the dark side to defeat Vader.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Unique - maybe not. But then again, neither is good-evil taoist balance.

Good/evil Taoist balance is not a notion that gets nearly as much mileage in American pop culture as the ever popular Good Guys Win. That alone makes it valuable.

But neither is it stupid or non-interesting - as proven by star trek and other productions.

Star Trek is much better at it, due to more sophisticated storytelling and characterization. Compare DS9's "space politics" to Star Wars - no contest. And since Star Trek is good at it, why make Star Wars try to go over the same territory? I prefer variety.

 

[stj]

Star Trek had some interesting political perspectives. Even so, in the end, it really just had the Prime Directive, which is not very sophisticated politically. The spin off series, including DS9, did not have any political originality or depth at all. The spin offs basically played with parallels to WWII. That approach is past cliche, it's downright moldy. Star Wars was at least influenced by contemporary reality instead of getting its ideas from WWII movies.

It is curious that the prequel trilogy, where the bad guys win, is detested because it doesn't make Vader into a supercool badass. And the original trilogy, which is The Good Guys Win run amuck (Return of the Jedi has a triple climax where three sets of good guys win!) is much more admired.

 

[Blue_Trek]

In interesting hypothetical discussion going on here. Wouldn't balance be something like a Grey Jedi. It could employ any dark side or light side power at will. Politically neutral, an arbitrator for the galaxy.

The term Gray Jedi, or Gray, had two meanings. First, it was used by Jedi and Sith to describe Force-users who walked the line between the light and dark sides of the Force without surrendering to the dark side, and second, it described Jedi who distanced themselves from the Jedi High Council and operated outside the strictures of the Jedi Code. However, those who were considered to be true Gray Jedi met both qualifications and did not belong to any particular Force tradition. One example was Jolee Bindo, a former Jedi Padawan and self-proclaimed Gray Jedi of the Old Republic.
Although the term did not directly refer to those who were capable of using both light and dark side Force abilities, all Gray Jedi could do so. The term was similar to that of "Dark Jedi" in that it could refer to any Force-user, and not only to Jedi. For example, the Voss Mystics were considered to be Gray despite holding very different views than, and refusing association with, the Jedi Order. Sith were never considered to be Gray Jedi, as the Sith Order taught full commitment to the dark side. The term was sometimes used to refer to unorthodox or dissident Jedi who did not meet the strictest requirements of being a Gray Jedi. For example, the Jedi Qui-Gon Jinn was thought of by some members of the Jedi Order as a Gray Jedi for his disagreements with the High Council.