%18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing facts
- Thread starter LitmusDragon
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Rii
Rear Admiral
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
No it doesn't. It doesn't say 'America, in its great magnanimity, will tolerate even the religions of non-white people'; it says 'thou art forbidden to be a douche'. Which is exactly how it should be.
Tolerance is not something to be applauded - it is part and parcel of the principles of individual liberty - rather intolerance is something to be opposed. To suggest otherwise is to undermine the very foundation of liberalism in favour of some divine right of the state to do whatever it likes; including, maybe, leaving you the fuck alone. If it feels like it. Grovelling wouldn't hurt.
No it doesn't. It doesn't say 'America, in its great magnanimity, will tolerate even the religions of non-white people'; it says 'thou art forbidden to be a douche'. Which is exactly how it should be.
Tolerance is not something to be applauded - it is part and parcel of the principles of individual liberty - rather intolerance is something to be opposed. To suggest otherwise is to undermine the very foundation of liberalism in favour of some divine right of the state to do whatever it likes; including, maybe, leaving you the fuck alone. If it feels like it. Grovelling wouldn't hurt.
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A
Amaris
Guest
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
You're reading far more into his statement than what is there. All he was saying is that the U.S. needs to allow this Islamic center to be built, to show that we are still a tolerant nation that stands by it's principles. Anything else is being read into it by you, and it is erroneous.
You're reading far more into his statement than what is there. All he was saying is that the U.S. needs to allow this Islamic center to be built, to show that we are still a tolerant nation that stands by it's principles. Anything else is being read into it by you, and it is erroneous.
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
He regrets the decline of tolerance in this country:
He's in favor of and supports the rights of the mosque/community center being built:
He doesn't think people should be judged on their religion:
Which of those supports the idea that he would say "brown people should be grateful when we bomb them" or "give us an excuse and we'll stick you in internment camps"?
He uses terms like "allow" and "tolerate" as a counterpoint to people in the country (and elsewhere) and in this very thread that have said it should not be allowed and tolerated, not because he thinks the US should be rewarded for doing what is right.
It's interesting that with all the horrible things being said in this thread, you chose to nitpick and completely misrepresent the wording of one of the people in favor of doing the right thing, and something which I know you believe is the right thing. Is this another example of you taking up an argument you don't believe in just for the hell of it? Is it only bullying when others question words someone actually said, versus when you make up things that aren't supported by either the poster's actual words or the context of his posts?
I actually agree with a lot of your political positions, but you never fail to shoot yourself in the foot and make your point so poorly that hardly anyone wants to take your side. Picking on someone who is in favor of doing the right thing is a good example of that.
He regrets the decline of tolerance in this country:
He's in favor of and supports the rights of the mosque/community center being built:
He doesn't think people should be judged on their religion:
Which of those supports the idea that he would say "brown people should be grateful when we bomb them" or "give us an excuse and we'll stick you in internment camps"?
He uses terms like "allow" and "tolerate" as a counterpoint to people in the country (and elsewhere) and in this very thread that have said it should not be allowed and tolerated, not because he thinks the US should be rewarded for doing what is right.
It's interesting that with all the horrible things being said in this thread, you chose to nitpick and completely misrepresent the wording of one of the people in favor of doing the right thing, and something which I know you believe is the right thing. Is this another example of you taking up an argument you don't believe in just for the hell of it? Is it only bullying when others question words someone actually said, versus when you make up things that aren't supported by either the poster's actual words or the context of his posts?
I actually agree with a lot of your political positions, but you never fail to shoot yourself in the foot and make your point so poorly that hardly anyone wants to take your side. Picking on someone who is in favor of doing the right thing is a good example of that.
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
But do you tolerate intolerance? If you do it shows you agree with intolerance. In the past the US refused to tolerate Nazi party groups, and denounced them. Did that make us more intolerant than the Nazi party, or did it show that we would not tolerate intolerance?
But do you tolerate intolerance? If you do it shows you agree with intolerance. In the past the US refused to tolerate Nazi party groups, and denounced them. Did that make us more intolerant than the Nazi party, or did it show that we would not tolerate intolerance?
Rii
Rear Admiral
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
I'm reading what he said. What he meant to say, I don't know. It wouldn't be the first time someone's inadvertently put their foot in their mouth, but in any case we're beyond the original post at this point to the sentiment underlying it as further encompassed by your phraseology and with which I have the same problem.
I'll grant that it's not easy to avoid implicitly affirming something that you're trying to deny, and that's what's going on here. Politicians love to do it to each other: get him to deny that he's a rapist and suddenly the association is undeniable. The best way is not to directly address the subject in the first place. How about:
"Those who attacked America on that fateful day hoped to provoke a war between this nation and Islam; they hoped that America would discard the principles that are her birthright. There are some among us who advocate exactly that. I submit to them that America is stronger than that, that America is better than that. America will thrive so long as her principles remain dear to the hearts of her citizens. It is we who will shape our destiny."
Of course it'd be rather difficult to say that with a straight face in light of everything that actually happened post-9/11. But there you go.
I'm reading what he said. What he meant to say, I don't know. It wouldn't be the first time someone's inadvertently put their foot in their mouth, but in any case we're beyond the original post at this point to the sentiment underlying it as further encompassed by your phraseology and with which I have the same problem.
I'll grant that it's not easy to avoid implicitly affirming something that you're trying to deny, and that's what's going on here. Politicians love to do it to each other: get him to deny that he's a rapist and suddenly the association is undeniable. The best way is not to directly address the subject in the first place. How about:
"Those who attacked America on that fateful day hoped to provoke a war between this nation and Islam; they hoped that America would discard the principles that are her birthright. There are some among us who advocate exactly that. I submit to them that America is stronger than that, that America is better than that. America will thrive so long as her principles remain dear to the hearts of her citizens. It is we who will shape our destiny."
Of course it'd be rather difficult to say that with a straight face in light of everything that actually happened post-9/11. But there you go.
Rii
Rear Admiral
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
Of course not; but you act against instances of intolerance as they manifest in otherwise criminal behaviour. Mere speech should be countered with speech. It's never the case that any social group large enough to have its own name - Americans, women, Muslims, Star Trek fans* - is actually a homogeneous entity to be treated as such. Certainly that's not the case with Islam.
I'm not familiar with the history, but 'refused to tolerate' suggests that the government did indeed step over the line. Which doesn't make them worse than the Nazis.
* In an ideal world those would be equally meaningful distinctions.
Of course not; but you act against instances of intolerance as they manifest in otherwise criminal behaviour. Mere speech should be countered with speech. It's never the case that any social group large enough to have its own name - Americans, women, Muslims, Star Trek fans* - is actually a homogeneous entity to be treated as such. Certainly that's not the case with Islam.
I'm not familiar with the history, but 'refused to tolerate' suggests that the government did indeed step over the line. Which doesn't make them worse than the Nazis.
* In an ideal world those would be equally meaningful distinctions.
A
Amaris
Guest
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
No. You're reading what you think he said. You are wrong.
No. You misread.
No, you misunderstood.
I have no interest in moving off topic. You misread what he said. You misunderstood. You made a mistake. It happens. We all do it. You did it this time by misunderstanding what he was saying. There's no reason to move the topic elsewhere, no need to cover yourself in a thousand words of expository story telling, you simply made a mistake. It's not that hard to figure out.
No. You're reading what you think he said. You are wrong.
No. You misread.
No, you misunderstood.
I have no interest in moving off topic. You misread what he said. You misunderstood. You made a mistake. It happens. We all do it. You did it this time by misunderstanding what he was saying. There's no reason to move the topic elsewhere, no need to cover yourself in a thousand words of expository story telling, you simply made a mistake. It's not that hard to figure out.
Rii
Rear Admiral
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
^ Except that your phraseology reveals the same problems. But then there are folks who don't see what's wrong with saying 'pretty smart for a black fella' either.
I haven't read most of this thread, and most of the horrible things that've been said have been addressed by others already. Nor am I 'nitpicking'; like any issue of note this is more complex than 'my side' vs. 'your side'. And yeah, the fact that I'm unwilling to simply nod along with those who come to similar conclusions via objectionable means often allows me to get on rather better with 'the other side' than my own. Only a politician - whose interests are confined to votes and signatures and cares not for the 'why' - could conclude that this is a bad thing.
I am not bullying. Indeed, I've addressed only a single sentence to the poster in question, who hasn't had the opportunity to reply. If it eventuates that I've misunderstood him, then the issue is over.
S'cool, I'm used to fighting the good fight alone.
^ Except that your phraseology reveals the same problems. But then there are folks who don't see what's wrong with saying 'pretty smart for a black fella' either.
I haven't read most of this thread, and most of the horrible things that've been said have been addressed by others already. Nor am I 'nitpicking'; like any issue of note this is more complex than 'my side' vs. 'your side'. And yeah, the fact that I'm unwilling to simply nod along with those who come to similar conclusions via objectionable means often allows me to get on rather better with 'the other side' than my own. Only a politician - whose interests are confined to votes and signatures and cares not for the 'why' - could conclude that this is a bad thing.
I am not bullying. Indeed, I've addressed only a single sentence to the poster in question, who hasn't had the opportunity to reply. If it eventuates that I've misunderstood him, then the issue is over.
S'cool, I'm used to fighting the good fight alone.
A
Amaris
Guest
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
Once more, you read more into it than what is actually there. That is a failing on your part, not mine, and not on the part of bazinga99. Now, I will not pursue this further with you, as it seems you want to do so, to make some kind of point, and I'm not interested in pointless semantic games here.
^ Except that your phraseology reveals the same problems. But then there are folks who don't see what's wrong with saying 'pretty smart for a black fella' either.
Once more, you read more into it than what is actually there. That is a failing on your part, not mine, and not on the part of bazinga99. Now, I will not pursue this further with you, as it seems you want to do so, to make some kind of point, and I'm not interested in pointless semantic games here.
Rii
Rear Admiral
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
Ah yes, the 'land of liberty' where the state allows its citizens to do certain things; where it tolerates certain religions. When the time comes to ask the state to be allowed to read a certain text, or that it tolerate your sexual orientation, be sure to ask nicely. For freedom!
^ Except that your phraseology reveals the same problems. But then there are folks who don't see what's wrong with saying 'pretty smart for a black fella' either.
Once more, you read more into it than what is actually there. That is a failing on your part, not mine, and not on the part of bazinga99. Now, I will not pursue this further with you, as it seems you want to do so, to make some kind of point, and I'm not interested in pointless semantic games here.
Ah yes, the 'land of liberty' where the state allows its citizens to do certain things; where it tolerates certain religions. When the time comes to ask the state to be allowed to read a certain text, or that it tolerate your sexual orientation, be sure to ask nicely. For freedom!
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
What I find utterly disturbing is that the Mods of the Trek BBS still have not realized it's not a good idea to have threads focusing on politics or religion here... those are two hot-button issues that various people have strong feelings about, and it will inevitably lead to either harsh words, or an all-out argument.
What I find utterly disturbing is that the Mods of the Trek BBS still have not realized it's not a good idea to have threads focusing on politics or religion here... those are two hot-button issues that various people have strong feelings about, and it will inevitably lead to either harsh words, or an all-out argument.
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
Clearly you're on the side of righteousness here with your attempts at provoking people by grossly misrepresenting what they say. Keep patting yourself on the back for being such a rebel and so much more ethical than the people you mischaracterize.
What I find utterly disturbing is that certain posters feel the need to call for the prohibition of entire lines of discussion instead of simply not participating if that is not their preferred type of topic. No one is forcing you to either read or respond to political and religious threads, and those are certainly not the only threads that generate heated debate. How about respecting those who want to have these discussions here?
^ Except that your phraseology reveals the same problems. But then there are folks who don't see what's wrong with saying 'pretty smart for a black fella' either.
Once more, you read more into it than what is actually there. That is a failing on your part, not mine, and not on the part of bazinga99. Now, I will not pursue this further with you, as it seems you want to do so, to make some kind of point, and I'm not interested in pointless semantic games here.
Ah yes, the 'land of liberty' where the state allows its citizens to do certain things; where it tolerates certain religions. When the time comes to ask the state to be allowed to read a certain text, or that it tolerate your sexual orientation, be sure to ask nicely. For freedom!
Clearly you're on the side of righteousness here with your attempts at provoking people by grossly misrepresenting what they say. Keep patting yourself on the back for being such a rebel and so much more ethical than the people you mischaracterize.
What I find utterly disturbing is that certain posters feel the need to call for the prohibition of entire lines of discussion instead of simply not participating if that is not their preferred type of topic. No one is forcing you to either read or respond to political and religious threads, and those are certainly not the only threads that generate heated debate. How about respecting those who want to have these discussions here?
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
So you want to tolerate an imam who supports Hamas (who declare that they will exterminate all Jews), defends Al Qaeda's violence against anyone who shows any tolerance to anybody, and you do this despite the fact that he refuses to tolerate us or tolerate our sensitivities about a particular place?
To put it bluntly, that's not tolerance. That's like enabling the Nazi Holocauast so you can feel superior to everyone as you sip lattes at Starbucks talking about how freakin' tolerant you are.
Millions of women can be raped, maimed, or enslaved, millions of Jews can die, all homosexuals can be executed, and the torch of freedom can be extinguished across Europe and America, as long as you get to lecture women at the PTA meeting about "tolerance."
Perhaps you should spend your time preaching tolerance to those who have sworn to wipe the Jews off the face of the Earth, not those who are fighting two wars to liberate 50 million or more Muslims from wildly intolerant regimes that were bent on stamping out every last vestige of tolerance.
So you want to tolerate an imam who supports Hamas (who declare that they will exterminate all Jews), defends Al Qaeda's violence against anyone who shows any tolerance to anybody, and you do this despite the fact that he refuses to tolerate us or tolerate our sensitivities about a particular place?
To put it bluntly, that's not tolerance. That's like enabling the Nazi Holocauast so you can feel superior to everyone as you sip lattes at Starbucks talking about how freakin' tolerant you are.
Millions of women can be raped, maimed, or enslaved, millions of Jews can die, all homosexuals can be executed, and the torch of freedom can be extinguished across Europe and America, as long as you get to lecture women at the PTA meeting about "tolerance."
Perhaps you should spend your time preaching tolerance to those who have sworn to wipe the Jews off the face of the Earth, not those who are fighting two wars to liberate 50 million or more Muslims from wildly intolerant regimes that were bent on stamping out every last vestige of tolerance.
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
Yes, freedom of speech means you can say you support whatever vile political, racial, cultural, or religious movement you choose. What is this, fourth grade social studies?
If they choose to act on it in a way that physically harms others, then you should fight it with all the ways legally at your disposal.
Yes, freedom of speech means you can say you support whatever vile political, racial, cultural, or religious movement you choose. What is this, fourth grade social studies?
If they choose to act on it in a way that physically harms others, then you should fight it with all the ways legally at your disposal.
Rii
Rear Admiral
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
Hmm. Where have I seen these things in juxtaposition before? Oh yes:
"The latest and the greatest of these aggressions, incurred by the Muslims since the death of the Prophet (ALLAH'S BLESSING AND SALUTATIONS ON HIM) is the occupation of the land of the two Holy Places -the foundation of the house of Islam, the place of the revelation, the source of the message and the place of the noble Ka'ba, the Qiblah of all Muslims- by the armies of the American Crusaders and their allies." - Bin Laden, issuing his 1996 fatwa against the United States
Incidentally, I notice that Bin Laden's writing style rather resembles my own. Heh.
And to think that I'm the one who stands accused of mischaracterising the position of another.
If your recipe for the preservation of liberty requires the destruction of liberty (the freedom to speak and to hear) then you've already lost.
On a more pragmatic level it's simply preferable that evil associate in public - where it can be monitored and its sentiments opposed - rather than in private. Stormfront.org, for instance, is a wonderful resource ... for law enforcement. Forcing the movement underground achieves nothing.
Heh; irrespective of the opinions of those who actually live there. "We're gonna liberate you whether you like it or not!"
Hmm. Where have I seen these things in juxtaposition before? Oh yes:
"The latest and the greatest of these aggressions, incurred by the Muslims since the death of the Prophet (ALLAH'S BLESSING AND SALUTATIONS ON HIM) is the occupation of the land of the two Holy Places -the foundation of the house of Islam, the place of the revelation, the source of the message and the place of the noble Ka'ba, the Qiblah of all Muslims- by the armies of the American Crusaders and their allies." - Bin Laden, issuing his 1996 fatwa against the United States
Incidentally, I notice that Bin Laden's writing style rather resembles my own. Heh.
And to think that I'm the one who stands accused of mischaracterising the position of another.
If your recipe for the preservation of liberty requires the destruction of liberty (the freedom to speak and to hear) then you've already lost.
On a more pragmatic level it's simply preferable that evil associate in public - where it can be monitored and its sentiments opposed - rather than in private. Stormfront.org, for instance, is a wonderful resource ... for law enforcement. Forcing the movement underground achieves nothing.
Heh; irrespective of the opinions of those who actually live there. "We're gonna liberate you whether you like it or not!"
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
Except there are many religions that celebrate Christmas, in those ceremonies did the president single out one religion to promote? Catholic, lutheran, 7th day adventist, etc?
Rii
Rear Admiral
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
How many schools of Islam do you think there are?
How many schools of Islam do you think there are?
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
They are all the same religion...
They just disagree on one or two things with the other groups...
They are all the same religion...
They just disagree on one or two things with the other groups...
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
Well done sir.
Such as Christians and...Christians.
Well done sir.