%18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing facts

[Pauln6]

Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac

People who say Obama's a failure do so because they want him to be a failure and nothing more. He could cure cancer and somehow he'd be a failure to these people. There's no way to really talk sense into such people. They refuse to listen to reason. No fact, statistic, poll, hand drawn picture will convince them otherwise.

I don't 'want' Obama to be a failure, but I think he has failed at what I believe to be the most important issue he has on his plate - that being the economy. However, I believe that Dubya was a failure at this also.

But then, I'm not a particular partisan. I call 'em as I see 'em, regardless of political party. I don't see Obama through the rose colored glasses of his supporters...nor did I see Dubya through the rose colored glasses of his supporters.

All I see is a piss-poor economy that has been bad for a number of years now - under both Bush and Obama, and is not getting better, but worse (at least here in Georgia). And make no mistake - I want it fixed VERY badly. And don't give a rat's ass who broke it, who fixes it, or who gets 'credit' for fixing it. I just want it fixed.

And until we get some governmental officials in there who ARE able to fix it, they will all be failures to me - Republicans, Democrats, and everyone in between. Because I am tired of seeing my friends and family members losing their houses and their savings and everything they have worked hard for their entire lives. And now I am in real danger of losing everything myself - it took the economy a while to get around to me, but it finally has and there is no one left to help me, like I helped them. Because the economy got to all of them earlier and they are all broke and barely (if at all) hanging on.

This is WAY beyond 'wanting' someone to succeed or fail based on silly political party posturing. Down here in Georgia, the economy is one of the worst in the nation, and I believe that we no longer have that particular luxury. We need this fixed, we need it fixed now, and we need it fixed by whoever can.

If that's Obama, then let's get to it already. Chop, chop - time's a-wastin and we are circling the drain here. If it's not Obama, then he needs to get the hell out of the way for whoever CAN do the job.

I don't see that the American economy is improving any faster or slower than the rest of the world to be honest. You're doing a damn sight better than Greece. There may be local pockets where he's doing worse but how much influence can a president have locally? Isn't that what state government is for? It's frustrating when you're in it but it's unrealistic to think that the economy can be magically fixed. If your trading partners' economies are still weak, how can you boost your ecomony faster than theirs?

Obama's in a difficult position because he has to expect people to think he's doing poorly when he's pretty much doing all that can be expected.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac

13% of Germans think that Vladimir Putin is still President of Russia
15% of Germans think that Christmas mourns the death of Jesus
17% of Germans think that Palin is McCain's wife
23% of Germans think that Santa Claus is a Christian figure

'strue

'Nuff said.

Why does it make Germans idiots if 13-17% of their population are unfamiliar with the precise details of foreign politicians? At least they know who they are, and can look up any further information from there.

As far as the Christmas/Jesus' death and Santa/Christian things, I wonder if that's not comparable to the number of Germans who are not religious or don't celebrate Christmas? While those are famous pop-culture references even if you don't believe in or celebrate them, it's not that far-fetched for someone to connect the two in either case.

This is assuming that any of those polls are true or accurate, since you didn't provide a source link or the methodology. It could also be many of those people intentionally messing with the results of the polls.

What I'm saying is, more than half the German population are idiots.

Who needs constitutional constructionism? Not one in three Americans, apparently: that's the proportion that said in a 2008 First Amendment Center poll that the constitutional right to freedom of religion was never meant to apply to groups most folks think are extreme or fringe—a 10 percent increase from 2000.

I belong to those people. Idiot cults like the Jehovah's Witnesses and Scientology have done enough damage.

It's hard to take your opinion on what causes damage seriously when you're advocating irrevocably damaging the Constitution and the principles this country was founded on in the process, including the protection of religious sects which were themselves not very popular in Britain; the very reason many colonists came here in the first place.

It's not freedom of religion for the religions we respect. Who gets to decide which groups qualify? What are the criteria for determining your worthiness as a religion? Every modern religion started out as a cult relative to the more dominant religion(s) of the day, and if you want to start getting into a pissing match over who has the more outlandish beliefs, I guarantee you can match them up side by side pretty easily.

 

[George]

Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac

13% of Germans think that Vladimir Putin is still President of Russia
15% of Germans think that Christmas mourns the death of Jesus
17% of Germans think that Palin is McCain's wife
23% of Germans think that Santa Claus is a Christian figure

'strue

'Nuff said.

Why does it make Germans idiots if 13-17% of their population are unfamiliar with the precise details of foreign politicians? At least they know who they are, and can look up any further information from there.

As far as the Christmas/Jesus' death and Santa/Christian things, I wonder if that's not comparable to the number of Germans who are not religious or don't celebrate Christmas? While those are famous pop-culture references even if you don't believe in or celebrate them, it's not that far-fetched for someone to connect the two in either case.

This is assuming that any of those polls are true or accurate, since you didn't provide a source link or the methodology. It could also be many of those people intentionally messing with the results of the polls.

Source is the German TV broadcaster RTL, the methodology was going on the street and asking random people.

It's hard to take your opinion on what causes damage seriously when you're advocating irrevocably damaging the Constitution and the principles this country was founded on in the process, including the protection of religious sects which were themselves not very popular in Britain; the very reason many colonists came here in the first place.

It's not freedom of religion for the religions we respect. Who gets to decide which groups qualify? What are the criteria for determining your worthiness as a religion? Every modern religion started out as a cult relative to the more dominant religion(s) of the day, and if you want to start getting into a pissing match over who has the more outlandish beliefs, I guarantee you can match them up side by side pretty easily.

I'm sorry, but Scientology kills people. They're not harmless. Who defines what is and what is not a religion? It's simple: If it commits crimes, it's not a religion. Scientology is guilty of murder in more than twenty, and racketeering, fraud and libel in hundreds of thousands of cases. And how did they argue themselves out of it? With dozens of loopholes in US law, but in particular the fact that they're a religion. Read the Fishman Affidavit. Read Australian Senator Nick Xenophon's report. And read Scientology's Fair Game policy:

HUBBARD COMMUNICATIONS OFFICE
Saint Hill Manor, East Grinstead, Sussex

HCO Policy Letter of 18 October 1967,
Issue IV
Remimeo

PENALTIES FOR LOWER CONDITIONS

(Applies both Orgs and Sea Org)


LIABILITY - Suspension of pay and a dirty grey rag on left arm and day
and night confinement to org premises.

TREASON - Suspension of pay and deprivation of all uniforms and insignia,
a black mark on left cheek and confinement on org premises or
dismissal from post and debarment from premises.

DOUBT - Debarment from premises. Not to be employed. Payment of fine
amounting to any sum may have cost org. Not to be trained or
processed. Not to be communicated or argue with.

ENEMY - SP Order. Fair game. May be deprived of property or injured by
any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the
Scientologist. May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed.


LRH:jp L. RON HUBBARD
Copyright (c) 1967 Founder
by L. Ron Hubbard
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

Quite frankly, that is sickening. And quite frankly, religious freedom can go to hell if it means that people have to die.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac

I'm sorry, but Scientology kills people. They're not harmless. Who defines what is and what is not a religion? It's simple: If it commits crimes, it's not a religion.

Wow, talk about opening up a huge can of worms with the bolded part there. That shows a profound ignorance of both history and current events regarding many of the major religions around the world. Or, I guess I should say former religions if we apply your criteria.

Scientology is guilty of murder in more than twenty, and racketeering, fraud and libel in hundreds of thousands of cases.

The racketeering, fraud, and libel I absolutely agree with you on and have read on numerous occasions. Those responsible up to and including the organization as a whole should be prosecuted for it. I'm no fan of Scientology by any means just because I agree with the right of their adherents to have freedom to practice.

The twenty counts of murder I'm going to need to see some evidence for, and not just examples of individuals who happened to be Scientologists committing murder since that wouldn't work out to favorably when it comes to other religions either. No, I'd like to see some evidence that either the church of Scientology itself or a church leader or leaders ordered or orchestrated those murders in some way. And not just "I saw it on TV" or "I was told by friends," I want to see links to reputable news sources.

And how did they argue themselves out of it? With dozens of loopholes in US law, but in particular the fact that they're a religion. Read the Fishman Affidavit. Read Australian Senator Nick Xenophon's report. And read Scientology's Fair Game policy.

Again, you'll get no argument from me that Scientology is a joke of a religion started as a fraud by a bad science fiction writer. But if people want to be gullible and follow it, that's their right to do so. Anything illegal that happens can and should be prosecuted, but you can't eliminate a religion's or even a cult's right to exist in this country.

Scientology is hardly the first religion or cult (the distinction is a subjective one) with a shady peedigree. It's not the first based on a ridiculous - in modern terms - set of beliefs. It's not the first to have in the past or present committed crimes, including church-sponsored murder (if true), fraud, racketeering, libel, or otherwise.

Quite frankly, that is sickening. And quite frankly, religious freedom can go to hell if it means that people have to die.

Bye bye Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. etc. etc. because all of them have had mass murder committed on their behalf either as the state-sponsored religion or on the orders of some of their religious leaders. Like I said, you're opening a big can of worms once you go down this path as an excuse for denying religious freedom.

 

[George]

Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac

The racketeering, fraud, and libel I absolutely agree with you on and have read on numerous occasions. Those responsible up to and including the organization as a whole should be prosecuted for it. I'm no fan of Scientology by any means just because I agree with the right of their adherents to have freedom to practice.

The twenty counts of murder I'm going to need to see some evidence for, and not just examples of individuals who happened to be Scientologists committing murder since that wouldn't work out to favorably when it comes to other religions either. No, I'd like to see some evidence that either the church of Scientology itself or a church leader or leaders ordered or orchestrated those murders in some way. And not just "I saw it on TV" or "I was told by friends," I want to see links to reputable news sources.

For a start, Google Lisa McPherson. Scientology locked her up in a room and intentionally let her dehydrate. Apparently, that happens quite a lot, although Scientology doesn't call it "intentional dehydration", they call it "Introspection Rundown"

Again, you'll get no argument from me that Scientology is a joke of a religion started as a fraud by a bad science fiction writer. But if people want to be gullible and follow it, that's their right to do so. Anything illegal that happens can and should be prosecuted, but you can't eliminate a religion's or even a cult's right to exist in this country.

Or can you? The problem is that American law and its protective systems for religious freedom mostly protect organised religion, because unorganised religion can't really be stopped so it doesn't need protection. I have no problem with people believing that an evil space lord froze bodies and dumped them in Volcanoes and those people became our souls. I have a problem with the organisation Scientology. Not the beliefs. And if the constitution were amended, all that would go amiss is the protection of religious organisations. And nobody needs that.

Bye bye Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. etc. etc. because all of them have had mass murder committed on their behalf either as the state-sponsored religion or on the orders of some of their religious leaders. Like I said, you're opening a big can of worms once you go down this path as an excuse for denying religious freedom.

Have had is the key. Have had. Not are having. Except for Islam, but, here's a shocker, I'm one of the people who believe that Islam is a cult as well.

 

[MetalPants]

Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac

I don't 'want' Obama to be a failure, but I think he has failed at what I believe to be the most important issue he has on his plate - that being the economy. However, I believe that Dubya was a failure at this also.

But then, I'm not a particular partisan. I call 'em as I see 'em, regardless of political party. I don't see Obama through the rose colored glasses of his supporters...nor did I see Dubya through the rose colored glasses of his supporters.

All I see is a piss-poor economy that has been bad for a number of years now - under both Bush and Obama, and is not getting better, but worse (at least here in Georgia). And make no mistake - I want it fixed VERY badly. And don't give a rat's ass who broke it, who fixes it, or who gets 'credit' for fixing it. I just want it fixed.

And until we get some governmental officials in there who ARE able to fix it, they will all be failures to me - Republicans, Democrats, and everyone in between. Because I am tired of seeing my friends and family members losing their houses and their savings and everything they have worked hard for their entire lives. And now I am in real danger of losing everything myself - it took the economy a while to get around to me, but it finally has and there is no one left to help me, like I helped them. Because the economy got to all of them earlier and they are all broke and barely (if at all) hanging on.

This is WAY beyond 'wanting' someone to succeed or fail based on silly political party posturing. Down here in Georgia, the economy is one of the worst in the nation, and I believe that we no longer have that particular luxury. We need this fixed, we need it fixed now, and we need it fixed by whoever can.

If that's Obama, then let's get to it already. Chop, chop - time's a-wastin and we are circling the drain here. If it's not Obama, then he needs to get the hell out of the way for whoever CAN do the job.

Out of this entire thread, this is the one post that I can whole-heartedly agree with.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac

Yeah, it takes real guts to throw up your hands and say "all politicians suck!"

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac

The racketeering, fraud, and libel I absolutely agree with you on and have read on numerous occasions. Those responsible up to and including the organization as a whole should be prosecuted for it. I'm no fan of Scientology by any means just because I agree with the right of their adherents to have freedom to practice.

The twenty counts of murder I'm going to need to see some evidence for, and not just examples of individuals who happened to be Scientologists committing murder since that wouldn't work out to favorably when it comes to other religions either. No, I'd like to see some evidence that either the church of Scientology itself or a church leader or leaders ordered or orchestrated those murders in some way. And not just "I saw it on TV" or "I was told by friends," I want to see links to reputable news sources.

For a start, Google Lisa McPherson. Scientology locked her up in a room and intentionally let her dehydrate. Apparently, that happens quite a lot, although Scientology doesn't call it "intentional dehydration", they call it "Introspection Rundown"

So that's a "no" on providing any reputable links documenting these numerous Scientology-sponsored murders then? I mean, if it happens as often as you say digging up some news sources shouldn't be that hard. The burden is on you as the one making the claim to provide the evidence.

Bye bye Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. etc. etc. because all of them have had mass murder committed on their behalf either as the state-sponsored religion or on the orders of some of their religious leaders. Like I said, you're opening a big can of worms once you go down this path as an excuse for denying religious freedom.

Have had is the key. Have had. Not are having. Except for Islam, but, here's a shocker, I'm one of the people who believe that Islam is a cult as well.

Congratulations, your hypocritical judgmental attitude is surpassed only by your unbelievable ignorance of the world.

List of religious conflicts around the world:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/curr_war.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikh_extremism

Buddhist slaughter of Muslims in Myanmar/Burma:
http://www.rohingya.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=101&Itemid=43

Jewish extremist terrorist group and religiously motivated mass murder:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kach_and_Kahane_Chai
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Goldstein

Genocides and mass murders: 1945-present listing perpetrators:
http://www.gpanet.org/content/genocides-politicides-and-other-mass-murder-1945-stages-2008

Hindu mass murders from that link (click thumbnail to enlarge):


And I mean, it takes a special kind of head in sand-ism to have missed this, unless Catholicism is another religious group you've conveniently chosen to label as a "cult."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases

"Nigeria, evenly distributed between Christians and Muslims, is a country where people identify themselves by their religion first and as Nigerians second. Around 20,000 have been killed in God's name since 1990. [...] This is one of many religious battlefields in this part of Africa. Evangelical Christians, backed by American collection-plate money, are surging northwards, clashing with Islamic fundamentalists, backed by Saudi petrodollars, surging southwards.”

The Economist (2007)

http://www.humanreligions.info/violence_and_crime.html

See, that's how you provide evidence to back up your claims.

Since you already dismiss Islam from being a religion (a billion+ adherent cult; how quaint), I guess I don't have to bother posting a link about them, though.

 

[gturner]

Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac

On religion, the Founding Fathers inherited the wise position that arose in Europe as a result of endless and bloody religious wars. Europeans got tired of the pointless slaughter, of being refugees fleeing the only homes they had ever known, of walking past fields of burning bodies. They eventually concluded that starting wars and massacres over religion was stupid, and they reached a consensus that they weren't going to be sucker's anymore, since the game made corpses of the losers and rewarded the winners with oppressive, fanatical, rigid religious orthodoxy - creating the need for another war.

Our religious tolerance and freedom is a gentlemens' agreement among former religious footsoldiers', and it holds as long as all parties refuse to initiate religious violence, oppression, and war. It has served us well, amongst ourselves, but Islam hasn't yet joined the consensus and laid down its arms.

Unfortunately, a great many imams take Western tolerance and inaction (no armies of wild-eyed Christian fanatics chasing Muslims with pitchforks) to be weakness. Worse yet, the Koran clearly describes the non-Muslim world as a zone to be conquered through battle or forced conversion, so they have a long way to go and much more baggage to abandon before their hearts join the Western consensus on religious tolerance.

Until that happens they'll keep striking at the West while repeating "In the name of tolerance, you're not allowed to hit back - suckers."

 

[George]

Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac

The racketeering, fraud, and libel I absolutely agree with you on and have read on numerous occasions. Those responsible up to and including the organization as a whole should be prosecuted for it. I'm no fan of Scientology by any means just because I agree with the right of their adherents to have freedom to practice.

The twenty counts of murder I'm going to need to see some evidence for, and not just examples of individuals who happened to be Scientologists committing murder since that wouldn't work out to favorably when it comes to other religions either. No, I'd like to see some evidence that either the church of Scientology itself or a church leader or leaders ordered or orchestrated those murders in some way. And not just "I saw it on TV" or "I was told by friends," I want to see links to reputable news sources.

For a start, Google Lisa McPherson. Scientology locked her up in a room and intentionally let her dehydrate. Apparently, that happens quite a lot, although Scientology doesn't call it "intentional dehydration", they call it "Introspection Rundown"

So that's a "no" on providing any reputable links documenting these numerous Scientology-sponsored murders then? I mean, if it happens as often as you say digging up some news sources shouldn't be that hard. The burden is on you as the one making the claim to provide the evidence.

It's a yes. I said to google Lisa McPherson. You'll find enough reputable links among the results.

[snip links]

I'm aware of this, but those are minority groups. In the case of Scientology, the majority work knowingly or unknowingly towards defrauding themselves and others.

Since you already dismiss Islam from being a religion (a billion+ adherent cult; how quaint), I guess I don't have to bother posting a link about them, though.

Indeed not. Another googling job, this time Google Video:

* Islam: What the West Needs to Know <- accounts from former muslims (!)

* Fitna <- most prominent work on the subject

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac

I don't 'want' Obama to be a failure, but I think he has failed at what I believe to be the most important issue he has on his plate - that being the economy. However, I believe that Dubya was a failure at this also. [...] We need this fixed, we need it fixed now, and we need it fixed by whoever can.

If that's Obama, then let's get to it already. Chop, chop - time's a-wastin and we are circling the drain here. If it's not Obama, then he needs to get the hell out of the way for whoever CAN do the job.

Unfortunately, I believe it is beyond the capabilities of any politician to fix the economy. Obama is smart enough that, if he could have fixed it, he would have by now (and then his party wouldn't be looking to get slaughtered in November). Unfortunately, at best, policy makers are only guessing about what they're doing or what kind of effects their policies will have. A couple years ago, we were told that if they didn't pass the stimulus, unemployment might rise as high as 9%. It has since gone above 10% (even 14% in places like Michigan) even though they did pass the stimulus. So they don't know what's going on.

However, while they can't fix it, both Obama & Bush have taken measures that have probably made it far worse. While TARP & the various stimulus programs have had negligible effect on improving the economy, the massive budget deficits incurred by these programs loom over America like a sword of Damacles threatening to deliver the killing blow. The only people that benefitted at all from the bailout programs have been the richest of the rich. Wall Street CEOs were saved from losing millions, while the little guys can't keep their $17,000 a year jobs due to unceasing economic uncertainty.

Who needs constitutional constructionism? Not one in three Americans, apparently: that's the proportion that said in a 2008 First Amendment Center poll that the constitutional right to freedom of religion was never meant to apply to groups most folks think are extreme or fringe—a 10 percent increase from 2000.

I belong to those people. Idiot cults like the Jehovah's Witnesses and Scientology have done enough damage.

We've already run down some of the major accusations against Scientology. But what's the problem with Jehovah's Witnesses?

 

[George]

Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac

Ask ex-Jehovah's Witnesses: http://www.jehovahswitnessrecovery.com/phpBB3/index.php

 

[scotpens]

Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac

We've already run down some of the major accusations against Scientology. But what's the problem with Jehovah's Witnesses?

They're really, really, REALLY fucking annoying.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac

It's hard to take your opinion on what causes damage seriously when you're advocating irrevocably damaging the Constitution and the principles this country was founded on in the process, including the protection of religious sects which were themselves not very popular in Britain; the very reason many colonists came here in the first place.

It's not freedom of religion for the religions we respect. Who gets to decide which groups qualify? What are the criteria for determining your worthiness as a religion? Every modern religion started out as a cult relative to the more dominant religion(s) of the day, and if you want to start getting into a pissing match over who has the more outlandish beliefs, I guarantee you can match them up side by side pretty easily.

Exactly. Just as freedom of speech applies to unpopular speech, freedom of religion applies to unpopular religions. Popular speech and popular religions don't need protection.

 

[paudemge]

Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac

Exactly. Just as freedom of speech applies to unpopular speech, freedom of religion applies to unpopular religions. Popular speech and popular religions don't need protection.

The problem I have, as with a lot of things, is government involvement. What constitutes a religion? Couldn't I just make up any old thing? Like what if I decide to worship the Fonz?

Now this should be ok, because we have "freedom of religion", but because the government gets involved making laws and rules that actually are based on religion, various tax laws, and forcing private individuals and companies to do things based on various religious beliefs of employees and customers; since I worship the Fonz, I need to wear a leather jacket at all times, but my employer doesn't like it and tells me I can't wear it while at work, so that is discrimination based on my religion.

Now if I can't make up any old thing as my religion, then that means that government is creating rules/laws describing what is and what is not a religion and that seems to be restricting religion.

 

[scotpens]

Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac

The problem I have, as with a lot of things, is government involvement. What constitutes a religion? Couldn't I just make up any old thing? Like what if I decide to worship the Fonz?

Hey, the Fonz is DA MAN!

And I'm trying to get a tax exemption, so kindly get your elbows off my altar.

 

[gturner]

Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac

Exactly. Just as freedom of speech applies to unpopular speech, freedom of religion applies to unpopular religions. Popular speech and popular religions don't need protection.

Freedom of speech has well estblished limits, as does freedom of religion. And even popular religions need protection from violent coercion. Pick a popular religion, like Christinity. Now try and erect a cathedral in Mecca. You can't do it because they'll jail you, torture you, or kill you.

Most Islamic countries don't recognize freedom of religion because their own religion forbids such open dissent, and indeed commands the death of infidels and apostates. It's a simple, logical contradiction that many in the West can't wrap their minds around.

If our freedom of religion is absolute, then it also must include freedom to follow a religion that forbids freedom of religion and demands its followers use violence to enforce its edicts. It also must include freedom to follow a religion that demands that the Constitution be replaced with a theocracy that strictly enforces sharia, the law of one and only one particular religion.

To defend freedom you have to defend it against existential threats to that freedom. Instead, afraid of being called racists and bigots, we're giving such threats succor, cover, and try to apease it with our own apologies. We pull it to our bosom hoping our narrow little worldview, based on our personal experience with Methodists and Unitarians, will prove true and the threat will prove a phantom of Karl Rove's fevered imagination. In truth, we're just providing time and space for the threat to grow and fester.

Hoping the alligator eats you last isn't a wise course of action.

 

[JarodRussell]

Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac

I once erected a cathedral in Mecca, if you know what I mean.


But that's the difference between the United States and, well, countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia. The Americans are about to build a mosque right next to Ground Zero. Holy fuck, now that's pretty liberal.

 

[Robert D. Robot]

Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac

.......Like what if I decide to worship the Fonz?

......since I worship the Fonz, I need to wear a leather jacket at all times, but my employer doesn't like it and tells me I can't wear it while at work, so that is discrimination based on my religion.

"Verily I say unto you all, if any man dost proclaim it is forbidden to wear the jacket of the Fonz, thou must reply unto that man, "Sit upon it!"

 

[RJDiogenes]

Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac

Exactly. Just as freedom of speech applies to unpopular speech, freedom of religion applies to unpopular religions. Popular speech and popular religions don't need protection.

The problem I have, as with a lot of things, is government involvement. What constitutes a religion? Couldn't I just make up any old thing? Like what if I decide to worship the Fonz?

Now this should be ok, because we have "freedom of religion", but because the government gets involved making laws and rules that actually are based on religion, various tax laws, and forcing private individuals and companies to do things based on various religious beliefs of employees and customers; since I worship the Fonz, I need to wear a leather jacket at all times, but my employer doesn't like it and tells me I can't wear it while at work, so that is discrimination based on my religion.

Now if I can't make up any old thing as my religion, then that means that government is creating rules/laws describing what is and what is not a religion and that seems to be restricting religion.

You're confusing freedom of religion with making special allowances for religion.