Char Aznable
Lieutenant Commander
Is it really such a huge leap that maybe that gas cataloguing equipment is standard on most Federation starships? I can't even believe people consider this a plothole.
TWOK:DE
- Thread starter Captrek
- Start date
I believe it. I noticed it the first time I saw the movie, at an exhibitor screening 3 months before the movie opened. When a movie takes the time to tell you something so specific e.g. The Excelsior is charting gaseous anomalies, and the only time that comes into play is at the climax, and they NEED something to detect gas/plasma to save the day, and it's the OTHER ship, something in the structure isn't quite sound. 99.9% of the audience doesn't notice or care, but that doesn't make the story structure as presented on screen less flawed.
I know this scene was never shot, because Nichelle Nichols flat-out refused to read the line.
That portion of the 'tour' scene may or may not have been shot.
In earlier drafts Uhura was the one who said the line. They changed it to some anonymous crewman saying the line.
They may have decided to drop it completely to avoid upsetting her.
But the rest of the scene was shot.
Any number of reasons and probably of combination of several. Shatner was the star of "Star Trek" and there are many times during TOS where it is alleged that he had scenes rewritten, or reconceptualized, so that Kirk was always the focus rather than a guest star or a co-star. Thus, other actors sometimes lost scenes and closeups they had originally had high hopes for.) This behaviour also occurred in the movies, but now he had Nimoy on equal pay, meaning that he had less leverage to outshine Spock in scenes.
Depending on who's telling the story, he was either improving the scene, hogging the limelight, throwing his weight around, putting a co-star in their place, competing with Nimoy, or simply playing it for laughs.
I've read interviews with Shatner's female co-stars - and have been at conventions with actresses such as Grace Lee Whitney and Yvonne Craig - who've described (with varying degrees of humour, anger and resignation) about how Shatner would deliberately make crossed-eyes expressions or slur lines during an intimate scene - sometimes in fun, but also possibly to ensure that the editor might have to use different takes that Shatner had preferred to others.
The autobiographies of Doohan, Takei, Koenig and Nichols all hint at this behaviour, and even Shatner's interview with Nichols in his own "Star Trek Memories" and "Star Trek Movie Memories" (her amusing line of "But I haven't told you why we hate you...", which supposedly forced Shatner to face his old strategies for the first time).
^Has Shatner ever been given the opportunity to explain himself, to defend himself, against charges like that? If so, has he ever done it? (I haven't read those 'Movie Memories' novels.)
Yep.
Sure. He's spoken about the Doohan/Shatner feud, the ongoing Takei/Shatner feud, his supposedly shocked reaction to Nichelle Nichols' quote, just as he thought their interview was over (and those reactions and reflections are in his books, and hers).
The "Memories" books are not novels, of course, they are factual books, although many have quibbled with Shatner's interpretation of "the facts". Celebrity autobiographies are written to contain controversy anyway, since autobiographies with no controversy are extremely hard to market.
^ It's just that with the rampant Shatner-bashing that has always been going on, it would be nice to have at least one instances where he was *right* and his detractors were *wrong*.
IIRC, his own books have him essentially admitting that, as "the star" of Star Trek, it was his job to ensure that Kirk was always central to the action, and that made Shatner oblivious to his costars' feelings on such matters.
And the costars and guest stars are not necessarily "detractors". Often they were being asked, for the 100th/1000th time over 40 years, much of that a time of unemployment and/or near poverty, "So what was it like to play opposite William Shatner?" As I said, many of these anecdotes were originally told to get some audience laughter and banter going at ST and card-swap conventions. Grace Lee Whitney and Yvonne Craig doing their Shatner impersonations on stage were hilarious! Ditto Doohan and Takei. Sometimes the stories sound mean-spirited when converted to paper. Sometimes conventions and interviews catch an actor on a bad day and the anecdotes gets a more negative spin.
Would you rather they spend 40 years perpetuating a myth every weekend that Shatner was always a dream to work with? Is it "wrong" to upstage a costar if you truly think a scene works much better a different way? Some may call Shatner's actions "unprofessional", or "not generous" but then, what actors worth their salt do nothing to groom, protect and promote their own egos? The ones who fall by the wayside, who never get the breaks, who stop going to auditions.
Egotism is part of the job, and they all know it, and use it.
No, but neither do I want to constantly hear how much of a bastard he was and how they all hated him.
Frankly, I've never thought of him as a bastard. There was a Dixie Trek convention in the mid 80's in Atlanta where Robin Curtis and Mark Lenard got really ugly about William Shatner, and I thought it WRONG as is much of the Shatner bashing that goes on here and elsewhere. The guy's a star, and is going to do what he can to preserve his stature.
Ditto for Michael Jordan who some sports insiders tell equally nasty stories about. Throw in Brett Favre, too. When you're the STAR, you're always going to want to be treated differently.
If the other actors were in his position, they'd be doing the same things he did.
Ditto for Michael Jordan who some sports insiders tell equally nasty stories about. Throw in Brett Favre, too. When you're the STAR, you're always going to want to be treated differently.
If the other actors were in his position, they'd be doing the same things he did.
Exactly! Where do they get off ripping Shatner to pieces every chance they get? Just jealous that their characters didn't get equal fucking screen time or some stupid shit like that? What a bunch of bitter whiny little pricks.
They wouldn't even have a show if it weren't for him.
Name a character that could hold their own in a TV series. Kirk, Spock, McCoy. Th-th-that's all folks.
No, but neither do I want to constantly hear how much of a bastard he was and how they all hated him.
Well, if you "constantly hear" that, you hang in all the wrong places, or read the wrong interviews. I've been to conventions where the main guest has been Takei, Whitney, Koenig, Doohan, Barrett-Roddenberry, Kelley (via phone hookup), and guests such as Judson Scott, Todd Byant, Yvonne Craig, and writers such as Gerrold and Fontana. I've interviewed Paul Winfield and Billy Van Zandt. I don't think there was anything but good-natured ribbing of Shatner, but inevitably, someone in the audience is going to ask, "What was it like working with William Shatner". They also tell stories of his and Nimoy's talent.
Any hatred/anger against Shatner's supposed star complex seemed to come in the era where the regular TOS members were all writing autobiographies. Finally, after decades of playing nice, someone let the cork out. Doohan seemed the most peeved, and must have been a superb actor, because his scenes with Shatner in TMP and "Generations" are amazing!
I also recall many of the regulars saying they actually dreaded being directed by Shatner in ST V, especially after Nimoy had been so good to work with, and so generous, in STs III and IV. But they were pleasantly surprised, and it was Director Shatner who secured them generous pension funds as part of their ST V contracts. Others would say it was Shatner ensuring they'd sign up for the film by making offers they couldn't refuse.
Remember, the only Hollywood Boulevard star ceremony Shatner turned up for was... his own, IIRC.
But they don't. Remember that print and TV interviews deliberately only show us the stuff that will make them some sales or ratings. In any interview, the actors could say 50 nice things about Shatner and one negative half-joke, and you can guarantee that is the comment that will see print or get airtime.
Well, Star Trek Memories definitely has some pretty severe factual issues, particularly in its biographical accounts of Gene Roddenberry. It seems as though Chris Kreski just took every tall tale that Roddenberry ever told about his life and compiled it into a narrative of his background.
Doohan should have counted his lucky stars he was even IN that film, because he wasn't supposed to be! All of his lines were originally supposed to be Nimoy's.
As for Shatner's issues: Is it out of line for somebody to act like the star when that is exactly what they ARE?
I think another part of this is simple jealousy over typecasting. Sure, a lot of people only see Kirk when they look at Shatner, but at least he's had a fair amount of roles outside of Trek. And what does George Takei have? TV commercials where he does that tired old "Oh, MY" joke? Nichols doesn't even have that. Closest she's gotten was Of Gods And Men. They're just jealous of Shatner getting more roles than them.
Count his lucky stars? As I said, the pension he received for ST V set him up comfortably for life. But actors are actors because they want to act, not so they can sit at tables at card swap convention to sign autographs.
Doohan was asked by fans how it was working with Shatner. He found the experience to be often very unpleasant. You want for him to give only dishonest answers?
I've worked with bosses who are total control freaks and make every minute at work unpleasant. I've worked with bosses who wished they were anyplace else and couldn't concentrate on the job at hand. I've worked with bosses who are a pleasure to spend time with. Is it out of line for a boss to act like a boss when that is exactly what they ARE?
Doohan, Nichols, Takei and Koenig made no secret of the fact they knew they had been typecast by TOS. Its massive success in syndication ensured that they remained typecast throughout the 70s and 80s. Instead of being able to explore new roles, they had to make to with "keeping the flame alive" at weekend conventions for decades.
Shatner had his lean periods, too. Before TOS he was living out of his car and eating fruit salad for every meal. Maybe he should have been more considerate of lesser cast members? In his books, IIRC, Shatner says he chose not to pal around with any of them - even Nimoy - because he was so concerned about Kirk and the show. The friendship with Nimoy only seemed to deepen during the movies... when they were on equal salaries.
He is also a "leading man" type and was offered different roles than the others.
So every time the cast is interviewed about Shatner they should say, "No comment". Then the interview reads "Naughty Nichols refuses to be drawn over Shatner scandals!"
As for "Of Gods and Men", it's my understanding that no one receives salaries for fan films.
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