The actor wasn't playing him as gay and didn't intend him to be gay. He said he played him as being omnisexual. Which doesn't preclude him being attracted to Ziyal, Bashir, or anyone else.
Garak and Ziyal: Did it bother you?
- Thread starter DS9 Gal AZ
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The actor wasn't playing him as gay and didn't intend him to be gay. He said he played him as being omnisexual. Which doesn't preclude him being attracted to Ziyal, Bashir, or anyone else.
I agree that he always acts so ambiguously that he is hard to read.
That's hardly a proof of anything. Garak knew he had to put personal feelings aside to work for the liberation of Cardassia. By your logic, there is even stronger evidence that Dukat didn't care for Ziyal at all - he forgave Damar completely for no good reason. (Personally, I think that was one of the things where the writers dropped the ball big time in the last couple of seasons.)
Yeah. I never got the Seven was a child thing. I mean, I understand that she had endured a personal reclamation of her humanity/individuality, and that included things that might be normal for a teen or adolescent by the end of the series (just got an aha! insight into their logic). Still, in quite a few other ways she WAS a young adult, and we clearly knew she could handle herself in adult situtations, make life or death choices, work on the ship's bridge, etc.
I always saw Seven as someone similar to someone who had been rescued from a religious or political cult, wherein their whole life and personality had been stripped away or distorted to serve the interests of "the group" (or "the collective"). She had to learn to taste life in all its complexity, and that included some bumpy missteps that would make sure she was ever-learning.
There ARE actually certain very plausible interpretations of the Dukat-Ziyal relationship that make his care for her far less than a pure thing. I could go into detail here, but I think I've done it quite enough in the thread I started a year or so ago on that very subject.
You're quite right. In fact the Garak novel 'A Stitch in Time', written by Robinson, also infers this omnisexuality. I wish they'd explored that a bit more in the show to be honest.
I guess the most surprising thing about the Garak/Ziyal romance is that Garak didn't attempt to exploit her specifically in order to hurt Dukat. Or... did he?
Unless his character was female, that was never a possibility.
Here's the quote about Andrew Robinson's on Garak's sexuality, if anyone is interested:
"I started out playing Garak as someone who doesn't have a defined sexuality. He's not gay, he's not straight, it’s a non-issue for him. Basically his sexuality is inclusive. But--it’s Star Trek and there were a couple of things working against that. One is that Americans really are very nervous about sexual ambiguity. Also, this is a family show, they have to keep it on the "straight and narrow", so then I backed off from it. Originally, in that very first episode, I loved the man's absolute fearlessness about presenting himself to an attractive human being. The fact that the attractive human being is a man (Bashir) doesn't make any difference to him, but that was a little too sophisticated I think. For the most part, the writers supported the character beautifully, but in that area they just made a choice they didn't want to go there, and if they don't want to go there I can't, because the writing doesn’t support it."
At the time, it seemed weird to me, but I was thirteen then, and a lot of things seem weird when you're thirteen. Now, watching the episodes as an adult, it doesn't bug me. I think at the time I still saw Ziyal as a teenager or the Cardassian equivalent, and now I still do - late teens, early twenties anyway - but she seems wise for her years.
I think placing Garak in his thirties is on the low side. I had always pictured him in his forties or fifties by the time the series ended, but it's unclear.
I think placing Garak in his thirties is on the low side. I had always pictured him in his forties or fifties by the time the series ended, but it's unclear.
Interesting. I never, even for a second, thought that Garak was either homosexual, omnisexual, pansexual or whatever, even during his first interactions with Bashir. The way he acted was creepy, but I found nothing sexual about it. But then maybe it's just because Garak acts almost like I did IRL.
Anyway, I thought he wanted to make the doctor feel uncomfortable, he enjoyed doing so, but there was nothing sexual in his motivation.
Garak was always rather camp - so I'm not surprised to learn that Robinson said he based his behavior partly on Liberace - and his interactions with Bashir were very weird, so I was not surprised to first learn that his sexual orientation was an issue discussed by many fans... But I was never sure if he was meant to be gay/bi and sexually interested in Bashir, or if he was meant to be just slimy and shifty and if this was his way of dealing people and trying to keep them on their toes.
Personally, I think that Garak/Bashir is the most HoYAY! couple in all of trekdom. Even so, I can also appreciate their friendship on a purely platonic level. Garak seems to be drawn/attracted to people that are the opposite of him - innocent, idealistic, seemingly open and uncomplicated individuals with a lot of compassion who strive for hope and to see the good in others. I think both Ziyal and early Bashir were like this. Whether his attraction to either or both of them was even partially sexual in nature is something that's up for debate.
One of my favorite Garak/Bashir scenes is one in which they're not even directly interacting. I think the episode is "By Inferno's Light," where Tain/Garak have that conversation about him being father and son. Tain's gone blind, and asks if anyone else is there. Garak glances at Bashir, who is seated off to the side, and says "No, we're alone." He then allows Bashir to witness an intensely private moment in which his true relationship with Tain is revealed as he dies. To me, it really speaks to the depth of their relationship that he would allow Bashir to know such a secret about himself, not to mention him being there to witness that very personal moment. Whether their friendship has a component of sexual attraction or not, it was a pretty deep connection.
One of my favorite Garak/Bashir scenes is one in which they're not even directly interacting. I think the episode is "By Inferno's Light," where Tain/Garak have that conversation about him being father and son. Tain's gone blind, and asks if anyone else is there. Garak glances at Bashir, who is seated off to the side, and says "No, we're alone." He then allows Bashir to witness an intensely private moment in which his true relationship with Tain is revealed as he dies. To me, it really speaks to the depth of their relationship that he would allow Bashir to know such a secret about himself, not to mention him being there to witness that very personal moment. Whether their friendship has a component of sexual attraction or not, it was a pretty deep connection.
I can't say that the Garak-Ziyal relationship bothered me in the slightest, but I didn't find Ziyal's love for Garak especially convincing. I think this is mostly because Ziyal is less a character than a living plot device designed to create tension between Dukat, Garak and Kira.
The fact that she was played by several different actresses and apparently aged rapidly following her first appearance contributes to the general impression that she is a bit of an artifical construct that the writers are manipulating to serve the needs of other characters, or the plot.
While it does seem natural to a certain degree that Ziyal would be drawn to Garak as the only Cardassian on DS9, the strength of her attachment seemed mostly to be inspired by Dukat's hatred of Garak, and then the necessity of providing Ziyal with strong motivation to remain on DS9 at the end of Sacrifice of Angels.
Ziyal is useful for what she allows other characters to think and feel, but overall I don't think she is one of DS9's more successful characterizations, in the sense that she isn't convincing to me as an individual in the way many of DS9's characters are, even the supporting ones.
The fact that she was played by several different actresses and apparently aged rapidly following her first appearance contributes to the general impression that she is a bit of an artifical construct that the writers are manipulating to serve the needs of other characters, or the plot.
While it does seem natural to a certain degree that Ziyal would be drawn to Garak as the only Cardassian on DS9, the strength of her attachment seemed mostly to be inspired by Dukat's hatred of Garak, and then the necessity of providing Ziyal with strong motivation to remain on DS9 at the end of Sacrifice of Angels.
Ziyal is useful for what she allows other characters to think and feel, but overall I don't think she is one of DS9's more successful characterizations, in the sense that she isn't convincing to me as an individual in the way many of DS9's characters are, even the supporting ones.
I'd have to agree with you, at least in part, about Ziyal. Most of the secondary characters on DS9 were quite well-developed, but Ziyal did seem to be more of a plot-point than a person a lot of the time. Of course, it didn't help that she was played by 3 different actresses. The first Ziyal looked about 14, the second one looked slightly older (and I believe that was the one that first interacted with Garak, and they recast again partly b/c she still looked too young for him), and the last Ziyal could pass for early 20s. They tried to give her a bit of personality with the artist angle, but it fell a bit flat to me. It might have helped if she got more scenes outside of those with Garak, Kira, and Dukat. For example, interaction with Jake would have been great for her character, especially during the Dominion occupation. The underlying tension with their fathers being enemies, while also bonding over being different than their fathers, i.e., choosing artistic careers (writing, painting) over military ones.
That being said, I thought the 3rd actress was the best one and they did seem to try and flesh out her character a bit towards the end. Oh, and I still get misty-eyed when I watch the scene where she died. *sniff sniff* But I do think one of the reasons they had the Garak/Ziyal flirtation/romance was to throw the focus of Garak/Bashir and all the subtext there.
That being said, I thought the 3rd actress was the best one and they did seem to try and flesh out her character a bit towards the end. Oh, and I still get misty-eyed when I watch the scene where she died. *sniff sniff* But I do think one of the reasons they had the Garak/Ziyal flirtation/romance was to throw the focus of Garak/Bashir and all the subtext there.
The first actress, Ciya Batten (who went on to later play a villain on a VOY episode and one of the Orion women on ENT "Bound") was 20 at the time when her episodes were made. The second one, Tracy Middendorf, was 25 in her episode. The third one, Melanie Smith, was 35. You are right, though, that they looked younger, especially Batten. Although Ron Moore said in one of his AOL chats that she was cast because she was the only one who acted mature enough to be convincingly involved with Garak in any way. The recasting was unfortunate, but not as bad (IMO) as the recasting of Senator Cretak - I didn't even understand at first that it was supposed to be the same character.
I dunno, I have to say she worked for me as a character, whatever anyone says. In the end, she didn't seem so naive as... inclined to see the positive side in people. (It probably helped her to reconcile her love for her father with the knowledge of the things he was doing.) Her crush on Garak makes sense since he was an outcast on the station, like she was, and the only other Cardassian there... besides, with her daddy issues, it's not very surprising that the man she'd choose as the object of her affection would be a much older and very shady Cardassian.
I don't see anything sexual in the relationship but I do agree that it was a deep 'connection'. Like you said, Garak is drawn to innocent, idealistic, sincere individuals. Personally I think it's because he started out the same way but was twisted, disillusioned, broken, and molded into something almost, but not quite, entirely different. A shadow/remnant/shard of the original idealistic Garak remains and he feels it's his duty to gently guide the innocents out of the ignorant bliss they find themselves in and protect them, not from the dangerous, uncomfortable universe but from themselves and show them the dangers of naivete. To me, that's Garak in a nutshell. A large nutshell. Did I mention he's a conniving, devious, cunning, manipulative and charming rogue?
I didn't either, embarrassingly enough
In fact I only realized it quite recently 
I think I should have realized this earlier because the writers go to the trouble of establishing her as the Romulan on the station at the beginning of Inter Arma, but for whatever reason I didn't initially make the connection with the Romulan that Kira deals with at the beginning of the season.A large gap in episodes is partly responsable, I suppose, in addition to the obvious change in appearance.
We were meant to feel sorry for Ziyal and sympathize with her, at least that was my impression from the writing.
She just couldn't fit in anywhere except on that station.
And I did feel sorry for her because of the position she was in, but you're right, she seemed to be used as too much of a plot device to fit any more character in.
Now, if her and Jake fell in love, it would have been REALLY ironic; The Emissary's son and the daughter of the top Cardassian villain together.
That would have made her death even more tragic from the young love point of view.
She just couldn't fit in anywhere except on that station.
And I did feel sorry for her because of the position she was in, but you're right, she seemed to be used as too much of a plot device to fit any more character in.
Now, if her and Jake fell in love, it would have been REALLY ironic; The Emissary's son and the daughter of the top Cardassian villain together.
That would have made her death even more tragic from the young love point of view.
It's May-September.
December would indicate he was extremely elderly. Those liaisons do occur of course but usually the December is very rich indeed.
That would have been a lot more predictable, IMO - "Hey, we have two 20-year olds in the cast... Let's hook them up! Young love and all that."
I was just going to say that April-September would be most appropriate for the ages of Ziyal and Garak.
I wouldn't have been for a Jake/Ziyal romance, but a friendship would have been nice.
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