Garak and Ziyal: Did it bother you?
- Thread starter DS9 Gal AZ
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Now that you mention it, I kind of remember Andy Robinson saying this! Hmmm! Garak would be jealous of both Bashir and Ziyal if they got together if he were pansexual!
A lot of people seemed bothered about C/7 because they thought Seven was childlike, but by season 7 I thought she'd matured a lot so that wasn't the reason C/7 bothered me. It bothered me because by season 7 I'd grown to hate Chakotay, he was so wooden and boring. Also I'm a J/7 shipper, whenever Seven got captured it was Janeway that rescued her not Chakotay.
Why? He doesn't have any particular feelings over Bashir either way, maybe he wouldn't be too happy if she got together with a Starfleet officer but she doesn't have many options - and nothing could possibly upset Dukat more than Ziyal choosing Garak of all people, someone he blamed for his father's death!
^I agree...if it was Sisko and Dukat's daughter, that would be one thing, but Dukat and Bashir never had the personal, hate-filled conflict that Garak and Dukat or Sisko and Dukat had.
Garak and Ziyal didn't 'bother' me in that I thought it was inappropriate. I thought it was strange for her to have feelings for him, but it didn't offend me or anything. To me, it seemed that she was in love with him and while he cared about her, he wasn't 'in love' with her. I remember a book Garak played a minor part in (I think it was one of the Shatner books, actually) and there's a part where Garak steps in to stop what he viewed as an 'innocent' being made subject to the whims of someone more powerful. That seems like a fundamental part of Garak's personality to me, kind of like when Sloan tells Bashir that Section 31 is looking out for relatively innocent, idealistic individuals only with a slightly different bias in Garak's case. So naturally Garak feels compelled to protect (or at least educate) those weaker or more naive than he is, which in my humble opinion is why he liked Ziyal so much.
On another note, I'm probably the only one who doesn't see subtext between Garak and Bashir. Maybe I'm purposely blind but I just don't see it.
Garak and Ziyal didn't 'bother' me in that I thought it was inappropriate. I thought it was strange for her to have feelings for him, but it didn't offend me or anything. To me, it seemed that she was in love with him and while he cared about her, he wasn't 'in love' with her. I remember a book Garak played a minor part in (I think it was one of the Shatner books, actually) and there's a part where Garak steps in to stop what he viewed as an 'innocent' being made subject to the whims of someone more powerful. That seems like a fundamental part of Garak's personality to me, kind of like when Sloan tells Bashir that Section 31 is looking out for relatively innocent, idealistic individuals only with a slightly different bias in Garak's case. So naturally Garak feels compelled to protect (or at least educate) those weaker or more naive than he is, which in my humble opinion is why he liked Ziyal so much.
On another note, I'm probably the only one who doesn't see subtext between Garak and Bashir. Maybe I'm purposely blind but I just don't see it.
Whoa there, Tiberius, another big-time Farscape fan, I see. You, sir, have frelling excellent taste.
I see it mainly on Garak's end. Whereas the good doctor is enamored with Jadzia and wants to be best chums with Miles, he's simply fascinated by the fantasies Garak represents for him. Garak on the other hand was expressly played by the actor, particularly early on, to appear interested in Bashir in more than a few ways.
I see it mainly on Garak's end. Whereas the good doctor is enamored with Jadzia and wants to be best chums with Miles, he's simply fascinated by the fantasies Garak represents for him. Garak on the other hand was expressly played by the actor, particularly early on, to appear interested in Bashir in more than a few ways.
The only thing that bothers me is people who think there was, or could have been, a romantic relationship between the two of them. Ziyal had more-than-a-friend feelings for Garak, but not Garak for Ziyal. That, I thought, was obvious.
What I also thought to be obvious is Garak's attraction towards Bashir. Even though it wasn't returned, like Garak with Ziyal. The only difference is Bashir was oblivious to Garak's advances.
(I see you guys have already been discussing this, I just haven't had a chance to read the whole topic.)
What I also thought to be obvious is Garak's attraction towards Bashir. Even though it wasn't returned, like Garak with Ziyal. The only difference is Bashir was oblivious to Garak's advances.
(I see you guys have already been discussing this, I just haven't had a chance to read the whole topic.)
Exactly. I'm not willing to call the return interest one way or the other on Bashir's part from a canon perspective, but to my mind what we see from Garak is pretty clear.
I just have a hard time seeing any return attraction to Ziyal, personally, since it seemed like Garak tried to make at least some attempt (though sometimes it was halfhearted) to avoid Ziyal's affections. I kind of think he was trying to let her down easy. And ironically, considering the consummate actor he would've had to be as a spy, kind of bumbling at it!
I had a problem with it because Garak was gay, and I thought this was a clumsy attempt on the part of the writers to straighten him up.
However, Robinson wisely played it so that Garak basically had no feelings towards Ziyal other than a sort of comradeship because they were both Cardassian exiles. Ziyal was clearly infatuated with Garak (who could blame her?) but I didn't see that he returned that affection in a sexual way, he seemed more surprised and bemused, which I think was appropriate.
However, Robinson wisely played it so that Garak basically had no feelings towards Ziyal other than a sort of comradeship because they were both Cardassian exiles. Ziyal was clearly infatuated with Garak (who could blame her?) but I didn't see that he returned that affection in a sexual way, he seemed more surprised and bemused, which I think was appropriate.
Actually, Andrew Robinson has said several times that his intent was not portray Garak as gay, but as pansexual or omnisexual. Initially Garak was supposed to be a one-shot character, but when they made him recurring he was told to "lose" that aspect of the character (although many believed the subtext between Garak/Bashir remanined). I do think the "pairing" with Ziyal was trying to quell the Garak/Bashir fanbase though, LOL. And I think Garak was probably attracted to Ziyal, but he knew she was young and very inexperienced, and I don't think he ever let it get beyond hand-holding and kissing (I don't know that he ever would have, if she had lived).
I actually think Garak was trying to get Ziyal to stop...he just wasn't sure how to do it. But I think I understand now why that was so hard for him--even WITH all his Obsidian Order training. He'd never had to actually be concerned about being delicate with someone not simply for what it might get him in terms of intelligence...but because he might actually have been concerned about hurting her, and wasn't acting this time.
^
Quite possible. I think Garak had a certain amount of genuine affection for Ziyal, and perhaps he was even somewhat attracted to her, but he certainly didn't love her. I mean, he seemed to have no problem working alongside her killer during the series' final arc, so his feelings for her couldn't have been that strong.
Quite possible. I think Garak had a certain amount of genuine affection for Ziyal, and perhaps he was even somewhat attracted to her, but he certainly didn't love her. I mean, he seemed to have no problem working alongside her killer during the series' final arc, so his feelings for her couldn't have been that strong.
That may have been acting...and I imagine even with a friendship, that would've been required to avoid showing any anger. And remember, if there's one thing Garak is, that's loyal to Cardassia--which I think is his FIRST love, and that he was able to compartmentalize because of that.
From someone who has read almost every G/B fan-fic out there...
Didn't work. :P
But if that's what they wanted, then why did they make the romantic interest one-sided? Why not make his character's feelings, mutual? Him turning Ziyal away only furthers suspicion that Garak is attracted to men.
I never had a problem with this relationship, it did strike the weird bell with me a little, Garak being so much older than Ziyal, also him being one of her fathers arch rivals.
But there are many older guys who get younger women and vice versa, so it's not like it's impossible or anything, so it was an interesting plot for as long as it lasted.
But there are many older guys who get younger women and vice versa, so it's not like it's impossible or anything, so it was an interesting plot for as long as it lasted.
While I've heard a number of times he tried to play Garak as gay or whatever, even in the first couple of seasons when the character was being introduced, I never saw it.
Garak's smile and big beady eyes when looking at someone never seemed like he was checking someone out or "interested" in that way towards something..... it always seemed to be his suspicious look that he gives people so they question whether they were being told the truth or told a lie..... whether he was on your side, against you, or just playing his own mind games for his own amusement.
^ I mean, with an expression such at that, you can't read much on the surface..... you could see one expression, but there's three or four other possibilities behind his expression..... and that's what I always liked about Garak..... you just never knew what was going on in his head.
The real problem was that he wasn't gay.... I'd have no problem if he was or wasn't, but just because the actor wanted him to be gay doesn't really matter. The people who developed the character and the story writers are the ones who determine if he was gay or not..... they never stated he was gay, and they never went with the idea of him being gay, thus he wasn't gay... no matter how many times the actor playing the character flicks his or her wrists, they're not supposed to improv. the character beyond a certain limit.
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