Barnes and Noble is up for sale

[Crewman Wunline]

...and the usual speculation/tech wanking about the "death of print" and/or the death of "brick and mortar" begins anew.

http://finance.yahoo.com/career-wor...ble-didnt-evolve-enough?mod=career-leadership

I'm still not buying it. By now, if what all the pundits (who said "cyber" and "e" were going to destroy traditional commerce), was going to happen, it would have already happened.

People still read paper books. They still read paper newspapers and magazines. They still go to stores to get their groceries.

"E" is at best an adjunct to traditional commerce, nothing more.

If I am mistaken, please forgive an ignorant Northerner...but doesn't displaying the Confederate flag automatically express approval of, and support for, the aims and goals of the Confederacy; namely, to secede from the Union over the right to own slaves?

 

[Amaris]

...and the usual speculation/tech wanking about the "death of print" and/or the death of "brick and mortar" begins anew.

http://finance.yahoo.com/career-wor...ble-didnt-evolve-enough?mod=career-leadership

I'm still not buying it. By now, if what all the pundits (who said "cyber" and "e" were going to destroy traditional commerce), was going to happen, it would have already happened.

People still read paper books. They still read paper newspapers and magazines. They still go to stores to get their groceries.

"E" is at best an adjunct to traditional commerce, nothing more.

If I am mistaken, please forgive an ignorant Northerner...but doesn't displaying the Confederate flag automatically express approval of, and support for, the aims and goals of the Confederacy; namely, to secede from the Union over the right to own slaves?

Not necessarily. The flag being displayed is the Confederate Battle Flag (or Southern Cross), which is considered acceptable as a cultural flag. That said, it is not uncommon for Southerners to display the Confederate Battle Flag, as it does not endorse sedition or secession, neither does it endorse slavery.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

...and the usual speculation/tech wanking about the "death of print" and/or the death of "brick and mortar" begins anew.

http://finance.yahoo.com/career-wor...ble-didnt-evolve-enough?mod=career-leadership

I'm still not buying it. By now, if what all the pundits (who said "cyber" and "e" were going to destroy traditional commerce), was going to happen, it would have already happened.

People still read paper books. They still read paper newspapers and magazines. They still go to stores to get their groceries.

"E" is at best an adjunct to traditional commerce, nothing more.

Yeah, that's why e-reader sales have skyrocketed, ebook sales are increasing as paper book sales are decreasing, and many newspapers and magazines are going to online-only formats or folding entirely, right?

Maybe in some lesser or "niche" markets, but the big mainstreams, while suffering just as everyone else is under the economic crisis, are still going strong. People are not going to futz with a Kindle or Ipad or whatever to read the latest Enquirer or People Magazine. The supermarket newsstand survives and thrives.

And the market penetration for E readers that you characterize as "skyrocketing" is what? A few percent or less?

The only way "e" will replace print is if somehow the tech is forced down our throats the same way HDTV was done.

While I'm sure paper books will never go away, they will become a niche market the way vinyl records have--the mainstream will be digital, period. It might take 10 years, it might take 20, but that's the direction we're headed.

And TV was supposed to make the movie theater obsolete decades ago....ooops....they're still going strong too...

 

[darkwing_duck1]

With literature being available in digital formats it's a bad day for publishers but a great day for writers as more and more avenues are opening up for them.

That's true. Just like with music, I'm sure the rise of digital distribution will be a huge boon for prospective writers.

Maybe, maybe not. The price of downloadable books is high for what you get. The temptation is to just price the E book a couple bucks under the "dead tree" version, but increasingly, people are balking at that.

I know that when Decipher shut down it's Trek RPG line physically and tried to release its last 3 or so books "E only" a lot of people balked because they priced it just under the old physical copy price. Given that their costs were supposedly way cut down, that came across a gouging, and the books sold poorly.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

...and the usual speculation/tech wanking about the "death of print" and/or the death of "brick and mortar" begins anew.

http://finance.yahoo.com/career-wor...ble-didnt-evolve-enough?mod=career-leadership

I'm still not buying it. By now, if what all the pundits (who said "cyber" and "e" were going to destroy traditional commerce), was going to happen, it would have already happened.

People still read paper books. They still read paper newspapers and magazines. They still go to stores to get their groceries.

"E" is at best an adjunct to traditional commerce, nothing more.

If I am mistaken, please forgive an ignorant Northerner...but doesn't displaying the Confederate flag automatically express approval of, and support for, the aims and goals of the Confederacy; namely, to secede from the Union over the right to own slaves?

Only if your knowledge of the causes and legalities of the "Civil War" is informed by "mainstream" history, which in this particular case (to a degree unprecedented in the "history of history") has been re-written to favor the Northern position.

I'll simply ask you this to get your thinking process past the blinders of propaganda: if secession is illegal and wrong, then why aren't we still British subjects?

The "Civil War" was caused by a complex combination of political and economic factors that used slavery as a cause celebre (sp?).

If you are interested in reading more about the realities behind the War, the political and legal reasonings behind secession, the REAL nature of slavery in the South, and the history of the Confederate Battle Flag and the attempts to surpress it, I recommend the following:

"The South Was Right" by Kennedy and Kennedy
"Myths of Southern Slavery" by Kennedy
"When in the Course of Human Events" (can't recall the author right now)
"Embattled Banner: A Reasoned Defense of the Confederate Battle Flag" (can't remember the author of this one either)

I would also encourage you to look online at the "Slave Narratives" recorded in the National Archives. Slavery and the South from the PoV and words of the slaves who LIVED it.

Off Topic diversion over. Back to the alleged death of print...

 

[CorporalClegg]

I can't help but wonder, if the big box stores do go away, will we see a resurgence of small niche, boutique stores?

 

[Robert Maxwell]

...and the usual speculation/tech wanking about the "death of print" and/or the death of "brick and mortar" begins anew.

http://finance.yahoo.com/career-wor...ble-didnt-evolve-enough?mod=career-leadership

I'm still not buying it. By now, if what all the pundits (who said "cyber" and "e" were going to destroy traditional commerce), was going to happen, it would have already happened.

People still read paper books. They still read paper newspapers and magazines. They still go to stores to get their groceries.

"E" is at best an adjunct to traditional commerce, nothing more.

Yeah, that's why e-reader sales have skyrocketed, ebook sales are increasing as paper book sales are decreasing, and many newspapers and magazines are going to online-only formats or folding entirely, right?

Maybe in some lesser or "niche" markets, but the big mainstreams, while suffering just as everyone else is under the economic crisis, are still going strong. People are not going to futz with a Kindle or Ipad or whatever to read the latest Enquirer or People Magazine. The supermarket newsstand survives and thrives.

I agree that they won't use a Kindle (a monochrome device) to read magazines (which are full color.) IPads and similar devices may fill that niche, and those haven't gone mainstream yet so it's hard to tell under what circumstances it would happen. Prices for the magazines need to drop, though, for electronic versions to take off.

Supermarket newsstand sales have also been in decline--even before the recession. They have recovered slightly but their future is hardly guaranteed. Printing and distribution costs are not trivial.

And the market penetration for E readers that you characterize as "skyrocketing" is what? A few percent or less?

Well, Random House reports that 8% of their sales in 2009 were ebooks, and they expect it to grow to 10% this year. That's momentum, whether you see it or not.

The only way "e" will replace print is if somehow the tech is forced down our throats the same way HDTV was done.

Er, how was HDTV "forced" down anyone's throats? The prices on HDTVs have plummeted. Remember, things like MP3 players used to be hundreds of dollars, even for a basic model. Now, you can get a crummy little music player for $20 or $30. That happened in the span of what, 10 years? It is not far-fetched at all to think that simple ebook readers won't hit something around a $50-75 price point in the next several years, and coupled with sane ebook prices ($5 or less per title) they start to look much more attractive.

You can't look at where prices are now, but rather where they're going. Money talks.

While I'm sure paper books will never go away, they will become a niche market the way vinyl records have--the mainstream will be digital, period. It might take 10 years, it might take 20, but that's the direction we're headed.

And TV was supposed to make the movie theater obsolete decades ago....ooops....they're still going strong too...

Movie theaters don't go away because it is very expensive to recreate the movie experience at home. As ebook readers become more advanced and affordable, however, the physical and ergonomic experience of reading a paper book vs. a digital book will become irrelevant. There will no longer be a reason to buy a physical book, especially when you're dealing with things like novels.

Reference books--including role-playing manuals--are a very poor fit for ebooks, since they're things you would have to flip back and forth through quickly. I expect those will stick around and people will pay a premium for them. Books you read cover-to-cover, however, gain very little by being in dead tree format at this point, and I question what they really offer consumers over an ebook version.

 

[Professor Zoom]

I'm an avid book buyer and reader (though, sometimes my buying out strips my speed at reading...)

About 4 months ago I got a Nook--sadly before the price drop, but oh, well. And I love it.

I know some people talk about browsing, etc. But, there's a website I like to go to, called manybooks.net, which has a TON of free books in different formats, most with expired copyrights, so I'm discovering a lot of writers that I hadn't before, especially early sci-fi and pulp. And again, all for free.

I also use my nook for scripts that I write or friends that I'm reading.

And I wanted something with e-ink rather than an LCD screen because it's exhausting staring into a source of light--I do enough of that in front of my computer. With my nook, I have never gotten tired or had any problems with eye strain.

I don't think the medium of hard copy books will go away, I think, though the market is changing dramatically and big companies need to respond.

And who knows, maybe in the future, we'll buy books directly from the publisher rather than through a middle party.

And I agree with what someone said upthread, it might be a very good time for new writers who know how to use the new medium to sell and market their work.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

I can't help but wonder, if the big box stores do go away, will we see a resurgence of small niche, boutique stores?

I wouldn't think so, at least not beyond the extent to which they are currently. Big box stores cater to the spender on a budget. Boutique stores have to charge high prices to make up for their lack of traffic and volume of sales. That will keep the "budget" customer out of them. Any attempt to by a boutique to cater to the "mass" market would effectively turn them into a brand new "big box" store by necessity.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

I can't help but wonder, if the big box stores do go away, will we see a resurgence of small niche, boutique stores?

I wouldn't think so, at least not beyond the extent to which they are currently. Big box stores cater to the spender on a budget. Boutique stores have to charge high prices to make up for their lack of traffic and volume of sales. That will keep the "budget" customer out of them. Any attempt to by a boutique to cater to the "mass" market would effectively turn them into a brand new "big box" store by necessity.

By definition, a "boutique" store does not cater to the "mass market." It appeals to a market niche that is willing to pay a premium for their wares.

 

[Arrqh]

I know some people talk about browsing, etc. But, there's a website I like to go to, called manybooks.net, which has a TON of free books in different formats, most with expired copyrights, so I'm discovering a lot of writers that I hadn't before, especially early sci-fi and pulp. And again, all for free.

Unfortunately real life is currently interfering in my reading time right now, but this is something I've used my new Nook for a lot and plan to continue to do. There's so much public domain stuff out there to read and having an e-reader makes it all so amazingly accessible. It's great!

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Well, Random House reports that 8% of their sales in 2009 were ebooks, and they expect it to grow to 10% this year. That's momentum, whether you see it or not.

That's SALES. Given that many avid e-book-ers buy many many books, that means sales are a poor indicator of how many actual people own the things. Before it can become the universal format you seem to think it will inevitably become, it will have to become so commonplace that Joe and Jane Sixpack have one as routinely as they do any other device, like a clock/radio or a telephone.

Er, how was HDTV "forced" down anyone's throats?

HDTV was the province of "circuit heads" and videophiles until the hardware makers convinced the FCC to mandate the format switch. They'd tried for years to get broadcasters and the general public interested and the consensus was "it's nice, but no thanks". So the equipment corps fired up their lobbyists and got the rules change pushed through despite the many people who complained about the forced obsolescence of standard def.

Movie theaters don't go away because it is very expensive to recreate the movie experience at home. As ebook readers become more advanced and affordable, however, the physical and ergonomic experience of reading a paper book vs. a digital book will become irrelevant. There will no longer be a reason to buy a physical book, especially when you're dealing with things like novels.

I know a technophile such as yourself won't get this, but many people don't LIKE to do more than they absolutely need to electronically. That is especially true of bibliophiles. The sensory experience of physically READING is part of what they want. They want to dog-ear the page to keep place, or put a bookmark with a pretty picture on it in to do the job. Clicking buttons on a cyber-book isn't the same thing.

Reference books--including role-playing manuals--are a very poor fit for ebooks, since they're things you would have to flip back and forth through quickly. I expect those will stick around and people will pay a premium for them.

Actually, reference books, given Search Utilities, are the area I'd expect MORE e-book penetration. Search functions eliminate page flipping.

Books you read cover-to-cover, however, gain very little by being in dead tree format at this point, and I question what they really offer consumers over an ebook version.

Yes, because book lovers want to stare at shelves full of shiny plastic boxes rather than rank after rank of real books.

 

[Professor Zoom]

I know some people talk about browsing, etc. But, there's a website I like to go to, called manybooks.net, which has a TON of free books in different formats, most with expired copyrights, so I'm discovering a lot of writers that I hadn't before, especially early sci-fi and pulp. And again, all for free.

Unfortunately real life is currently interfering in my reading time right now, but this is something I've used my new Nook for a lot and plan to continue to do. There's so much public domain stuff out there to read and having an e-reader makes it all so amazingly accessible. It's great!

There are a bunch of sites with public domain stuff. Project Gutenberg comes to mind...

Manybooks is pretty easy to navigate so I have a tendency to head that way.

 

[Smiley]

I don't expect paper books to go away anytime soon, but I do expect that more and more books will be ordered online. Browsing online does take a bit more effort than browsing in a brick and mortar store, but as predictive software and sample chapter availability improves, impulse buys for online books will also increase.

 

[Peak]

Ten years ago, I thought that ebooks was the future, and that regular books would dissappear.

Now, when ebooks are here, I have changed my mind. DRM, country restrictions, a lot of formats and the price will probably mean that ebooks will become bigger, but never replace "regular" books.

And the piracy... Today I found a program that removed Adobe DRM from epubs. So, I got an idea and borrowed a ebook from the library (epub which expires in 28 days), and ran it through the program.

The file is now unlocked, and means that if I really wanted that book I could have it for free. Forever.

ebooks at the moment are really only small overpriced computer files, and I really wonder if any of the DRM-books will be functional in ten years...

 

[Arrqh]

HDTV was the province of "circuit heads" and videophiles until the hardware makers convinced the FCC to mandate the format switch. They'd tried for years to get broadcasters and the general public interested and the consensus was "it's nice, but no thanks". So the equipment corps fired up their lobbyists and got the rules change pushed through despite the many people who complained about the forced obsolescence of standard def.

This is completely incorrect and you seem to be confusing HDTV with DTV OTA broadcasts and the retiring of analog OTA. The FCC has not mandated anything involving HDTV in the way that you describe and some OTA broadcasts are still in SD... and with a digital converter box (which there was even a government coupon program for) you can continue to use an SDTV indefinitely. It hasn't been pushed down anyone's throat.

What I really don't understand is why you feel it's necessary to use backhanded insults such as "circuit heads"? Is the very existence of HDTV offensive to you in some way?

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Well, Random House reports that 8% of their sales in 2009 were ebooks, and they expect it to grow to 10% this year. That's momentum, whether you see it or not.

That's SALES. Given that many avid e-book-ers buy many many books, that means sales are a poor indicator of how many actual people own the things. Before it can become the universal format you seem to think it will inevitably become, it will have to become so commonplace that Joe and Jane Sixpack have one as routinely as they do any other device, like a clock/radio or a telephone.

You mean the way MP3 players have penetrated? They have all but replaced CD players--anymore, it seems like people only buy CDs to rip them onto portable music players!

I never said ebooks have taken over the market--only that they will.

Er, how was HDTV "forced" down anyone's throats?

HDTV was the province of "circuit heads" and videophiles until the hardware makers convinced the FCC to mandate the format switch. They'd tried for years to get broadcasters and the general public interested and the consensus was "it's nice, but no thanks". So the equipment corps fired up their lobbyists and got the rules change pushed through despite the many people who complained about the forced obsolescence of standard def.

Given that you have confused "digital TV" with "high definition TV," I question how seriously I should take anything you post in this thread.

I know a technophile such as yourself won't get this, but many people don't LIKE to do more than they absolutely need to electronically. That is especially true of bibliophiles. The sensory experience of physically READING is part of what they want. They want to dog-ear the page to keep place, or put a bookmark with a pretty picture on it in to do the job. Clicking buttons on a cyber-book isn't the same thing.

"Bibliophiles" are not who ebook readers are designed for. They are designed for the masses. And they are already following the adoption curve of other technological devices. Fifteen years ago, most of the population didn't even have computers, much less Internet access. Look where we are now.

Bibliophiles will become much like audiophiles--sticking with technology that the mass market has grown to consider outdated, obsolete, and unnecessary. Joe Sixpack isn't buying vinyls anymore.

It's not necessary to try to insult me by calling me a "technophile." I don't even own an ebook reader, though I do read books on my computer from time to time. I just see which way the wind is blowing on this one.

Reference books--including role-playing manuals--are a very poor fit for ebooks, since they're things you would have to flip back and forth through quickly. I expect those will stick around and people will pay a premium for them.

Actually, reference books, given Search Utilities, are the area I'd expect MORE e-book penetration. Search functions eliminate page flipping.

Yeah, but you'd need larger ebook screens for a lot of reference books. Think graphs and tables. Those look like crap on small screens.

Books you read cover-to-cover, however, gain very little by being in dead tree format at this point, and I question what they really offer consumers over an ebook version.

Yes, because book lovers want to stare at shelves full of shiny plastic boxes rather than rank after rank of real books.

Your average consumer is not a "book lover," they are likely picking up the latest Dan Brown or Twilight book--grabbing things that are on the bestseller list. Once ebook reader prices come down to a level where just about anyone can afford them, and the books themselves hit a more realistic price point (a couple bucks off the physical cover price is a joke!), it will be the end of printed books as a mass market entertainment item.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

There's also the legal issues involved in the recent scandals when e-book providers started erasing books from readers. Buy a physical book and it's YOURS unless they come and pry it out of your cold dead hand.

Permanency of form has another useful attribute. Once a physical book gets out, any attempt to surpress it faces an overwhelmingly high uphill struggle. You can take a paper book and cut it up and hide a few pages here, a few pages there. Share the rest out to friends who do the same. The tyrant who want's your book now has to track down HUNDREDS of pages (out of just ONE copy) instead of clicking a few computer buttons and erasing files.

All that aside, the day the National Archives becomes the "National Database Mainframe" is the day something ineffable will have been driven from our very souls.

This is a Trek board, and you all should recognize this quote:

" A computer, huh? I got one of these in my office. Contains all the precedents, a synthesis of all the great legal decisions written throughout time. - I never use it...

I've got my own system. Books, young man, books. Thousands of them. If time wasn't so important, I'd show you something-- my library. Thousands of books.

This is where the law is, not in that homogenized, pasteurized, synthesized-- Do you want to know the law, the ancient concepts in their own language, Learn the intent of the men who wrote them, from Moses to the tribunal of Alpha 3?

Books..."

 

[Robert Maxwell]

There's also the legal issues involved in the recent scandals when e-book providers started erasing books from readers. Buy a physical book and it's YOURS unless they come and pry it out of your cold dead hand.

Permanency of form has another useful attribute. Once a physical book gets out, any attempt to surpress it faces an overwhelmingly high uphill struggle. You can take a paper book and cut it up and hide a few pages here, a few pages there. Share the rest out to friends who do the same. The tyrant who want's your book now has to track down HUNDREDS of pages (out of just ONE copy) instead of clicking a few computer buttons and erasing files.

All that aside, the day the National Archives becomes the "National Database Mainframe" is the day something ineffable will have been driven from our very souls.

This is a Trek board, and you all should recognize this quote:

" A computer, huh? I got one of these in my office. Contains all the precedents, a synthesis of all the great legal decisions written throughout time. - I never use it...why not?

I've got my own system. Books, young man, books. Thousands of them. If time wasn't so important, I'd show you something-- my library. Thousands of books.

This is where the law is, not in that homogenized, pasteurized, synthesized-- Do you want to know the law, the ancient concepts in their own language, Learn the intent of the men who wrote them, from Moses to the tribunal of Alpha 3?

Books..."

The ability to remotely delete books is not a necessary part of any ebook platform. Don't confuse the technology itself with specific platform implementations.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

This is completely incorrect and you seem to be confusing HDTV with DTV OTA broadcasts and the retiring of analog OTA. The FCC has not mandated anything involving HDTV in the way that you describe and some OTA broadcasts are still in SD... and with a digital converter box (which there was even a government coupon program for) you can continue to use an SDTV indefinitely. It hasn't been pushed down anyone's throat.

You can't choose to watch TV without at least the box. The programming wasn't there to support mass sales of the HDTV hardware, so the industry got the government to "retire" analogue with the express purpose of selling people "newer" (and more expensive) HD products. They had the government create a market that didn't need to be there, just so they could force complete obsolescence on SDTV.

What I really don't understand is why you feel it's necessary to use backhanded insults such as "circuit heads"? Is the very existence of HDTV offensive to you in some way?

The term was meant to be descriptive (in this case of high-end users), not derrogatory.