The problem with Voyager wasn't the characters but the premise

[nordmoon]

I wish they had gone more the way like Stargate Universe. VOY was a favorite of mine but you are right, it lacked something.

 

[exodus]

Part of it was that I personally never wouldn't have gone the "lost in space" route if I had created VOY. I would have sent the Voyager on a mission to patrol and keep the peace in a distant corner of Federation space far enough away that going back to Earth wasn't possible in a short period of time and where Starfleet's presence was stretched very thinly (maybe only one starbase or member world) out there. There would be new aliens aplenty, but also some pre-established ones like the Orions, the Klingons, and even the Tholians. Perhaps in that part of the frontier, life was harder for Federation citizens and not as comfy or safe as it is within the core sectors. At times, the Voyager would be called upon to act as police, negotiator, and explorer when necessary...

Exactly. A much better premise that would have permitted the crew to occasionally contact Alpha Quadrant regulars.

This is the issue I have with this.
Folks complain about seeing Talaxians so far into the DQ but we have no issues what so ever about seeing Klingons, Tholians, etc. that deep into the AQ?
Plus, I think it was time we saw life beyond Federation space.
If DS9 brought us to the edge of the final frontier, then the next Trek show should bring us beyond it.

 

[DarthTom]

This is the issue I have with this.
Folks complain about seeing Talaxians so far into the DQ but we have no issues what so ever about seeing Klingons, Tholians, etc. that deep into the AQ?

Meh. The one redeeming take away from ST Enterprise was they explained the lack of ridges on earlier Klingons in a logical way. Whereas the writers in Voyager failed to explain such things.

 

[exodus]

This is the issue I have with this.
Folks complain about seeing Talaxians so far into the DQ but we have no issues what so ever about seeing Klingons, Tholians, etc. that deep into the AQ?

Meh. The one redeeming take away from ST Enterprise was they explained the lack of ridges on earlier Klingons in a logical way. Whereas the writers in Voyager failed to explain such things.

What does Klingon ridges have to do with Voyager and why would they have to explain a topic that didn't relate to them? I'm not understanding your reasoning.

 

[DarthTom]

What does Klingon ridges have to do with Voyager and why would they have to explain a topic that didn't relate to them? I'm not understanding your reasoning.

Nothing really other than I started to go on a tangent on holding to the premise or at least trying to logically explain why things happen.

My bad.

 

[JoeD80]

I think the biggest issue of the premise was that it was only used as a set up for a few episodes, and the rest was TNG style all the way. Did it matter that they were 70,000 light years from the nearest starbase? Half the time the ship would receive damage and be fine in the next episode. Even without a large arc there should at least be some kind of continuity on ship damage or "we can't take the shuttlecrafts anymore because they've all been destroyed" but we rarely got a mention of issues like that. The premise wasn't the problem; ignoring the premise except for some key episodes was the problem. I always thought it would have been interesting if instead of Janeway deciding to do things as a Starfleet crew at the end of the first episode she decided to go for the Maquis way; there could have been lots of interesting conflicts with breaking the rules to get home. (More stuff like "Prime Factors").

 

[DarthTom]

I think the biggest issue of the premise was that it was only used as a set up for a few episodes, and the rest was TNG style all the way. Did it matter that they were 70,000 light years from the nearest starbase? Half the time the ship would receive damage and be fine in the next episode. Even without a large arc there should at least be some kind of continuity on ship damage or "we can't take the shuttlecrafts anymore because they've all been destroyed" but we rarely got a mention of issues like that.

That's very true. And also they kept replenishing their photo torpedo supply even though in TNG they had a limited supply.

The premise wasn't the problem; ignoring the premise except for some key episodes was the problem. I always thought it would have been interesting if instead of Janeway deciding to do things as a Starfleet crew at the end of the first episode she decided to go for the Maquis way; there could have been lots of interesting conflicts with breaking the rules to get home. (More stuff like "Prime Factors").

I think the producers of the show were afraid to break the rules that Star Fleet people are always the good guys and everyone else is either a shade of gray or down right evil and potentially alienate the core audience. But you're right - having more multi-dimensional characters would have helped.

 

[exodus]

What does Klingon ridges have to do with Voyager and why would they have to explain a topic that didn't relate to them? I'm not understanding your reasoning.

Nothing really other than I started to go on a tangent on holding to the premise or at least trying to logically explain why things happen.

My bad.

Now that's the Darth Tom I know.

 

[exodus]

I think the biggest issue of the premise was that it was only used as a set up for a few episodes, and the rest was TNG style all the way. Did it matter that they were 70,000 light years from the nearest starbase? Half the time the ship would receive damage and be fine in the next episode. Even without a large arc there should at least be some kind of continuity on ship damage or "we can't take the shuttlecrafts anymore because they've all been destroyed" but we rarely got a mention of issues like that.

That's very true. And also they kept replenishing their photo torpedo supply even though in TNG they had a limited supply.

"Non-Sequitur" showed Harry Kim is an expert in shuttle design. "Deadlock" & "Nightingale" shows how and where the ship is repaired. "Dark Frontier", Neelix explains components from debris can be broken down and reused. More than half the Voyager crew are Engineers. The replicators are tied into the transporters, from that we can get some idea how things are repaired and that Engineers build things. While not exact, you have to suspend some belief and guess this is how things get done on Voyager. That and I'm guessing TPTB didn't think the average audience would focus on such things or directly address such questions. I assume they figured we'd just focus on the story of the day & the characters. However, they did try by repeating in the first few seasons that if the replicators work, they'd be ok. THen showed us what happens to Voyager in "YOH" when they don't.

 

[Destructor]

The premise was fine. Better than TNG's premise, actually.

The problem (and there was a problem) was that the show had no continuity. Things would happen and be forgotten by the next episode. Massive, earth-shattering things, like being assimilated or having your ship near-shredded in combat. The show didn't seem to... notice? I love the show and love the actors, but it WAS a frustrating show because it seemed be be in a weird, surreal vacuum where nothing had consequences.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Part of it was that I personally never wouldn't have gone the "lost in space" route if I had created VOY. I would have sent the Voyager on a mission to patrol and keep the peace in a distant corner of Federation space far enough away that going back to Earth wasn't possible in a short period of time and where Starfleet's presence was stretched very thinly (maybe only one starbase or member world) out there. There would be new aliens aplenty, but also some pre-established ones like the Orions, the Klingons, and even the Tholians. Perhaps in that part of the frontier, life was harder for Federation citizens and not as comfy or safe as it is within the core sectors. At times, the Voyager would be called upon to act as police, negotiator, and explorer when necessary...

Exactly. A much better premise that would have permitted the crew to occasionally contact Alpha Quadrant regulars.

This is the issue I have with this.
Folks complain about seeing Talaxians so far into the DQ but we have no issues what so ever about seeing Klingons, Tholians, etc. that deep into the AQ?

No one has any problems with Federation ships being that deep into the Alpha Quadrant. Or the Beta Quadrant. Or the Gamma Quadrant. Or the Delta Quadrant...

 

[Silvercrest]

I think not knowing where they were would be pushing it.
in 'Where no man has gone before' TNG episode, the Enterprise-D was pushed billions of lightyears away, and they STILL were able to calculate where they were (plus, back then, Warp drive [before it was dumb down] was actually much more advanced and it would take them only a couple hundred years to get back).

I find it very plausible the Feds would be able scan farther reaches of the Galaxy, but it's a time-consuming process and closer exploration of it is required later on.

I think the whole 75 years trip was stretching it when we take into account wild fluctuations of Warp technology and speed of the plot.
To make things consistent, they simply could have stated the initial trip damaged the drive to the level of achieving faster warp velocities would require replacing the main core and most of the Warp Coils.
Having alien technology to do that would heavily complicate matters for example, but they could still make it work by bumping up their speed after every season, and reaching SOL by the end of season 7 on their own.

That would work.

My thought is that Voyager could have been thrown millions of light-years away-- too far a distance to ever make it home on their own. Their task would have been to actively search for another Caretaker array, transwarp hub, jump-gate, etc. that could get them home. Maybe a network of these objects that they'd have to navigate or decode-- so even when they find one, it doesn't necessarily take them home. Some jumps might accidentally send them farther away!

The advantage here is that they might have to cross and recross the same space several times while looking for these devices. They could plausibly run into the same races and the same people more than once. It would allow for the sort of development that Anwar mentioned.

 

[Anwar]

Exactly, you need a lot of time to properly develop your own unique aliens. It took DS9's entire run to develop the Dominion, and it took NuBSG and Farscape their entire runs to develop THEIR aliens/Cylons.

Yet somehow, the audience expected VOY to be able to make the Kazon as deep and fleshed out as the Klingons/Romulans within 5 episodes. The unfair expectations for the show were just insane.

And VOY's premise was never THAT good. Not like TOS/TNG/DS9's.

 

[Destructor]

And VOY's premise was never THAT good. Not like TOS/TNG/DS9's.

Oh, come on. DS9 and VOY had premises. TOS and TNG had a vague notion that they were out there, doing...something that was never really that defined. Ferrying medical supplies and ambassadors, for the most part. Quibble about the execution all you like, but saying that TNG or TOS had a better premise than VOY is like saying you prefer the contents of a blank book over the content of a novel. You might be right, but at least one of them has some content.

 

[Anwar]

VOY's premise was pretty much just "Lost in Space" or "Gilligans' Island" if the island was an entire area of space. It's just some people lost from home.

And again, KNOWING how to get home wasn't good for the show. If they had no way of knowing how to get back to Earth, then it would've allowed for better use of the Delta Quadrant as a setting but as is the Delta Quadrant was just window dressing since they always knew how to leave.

 

[exodus]

Exactly. A much better premise that would have permitted the crew to occasionally contact Alpha Quadrant regulars.

This is the issue I have with this.
Folks complain about seeing Talaxians so far into the DQ but we have no issues what so ever about seeing Klingons, Tholians, etc. that deep into the AQ?

No one has any problems with Federation ships being that deep into the Alpha Quadrant. Or the Beta Quadrant. Or the Gamma Quadrant. Or the Delta Quadrant...

Becausde there aren't any Federation ships in 3 of those 4 quaderants. The treaty of the Neutural Zone and the treaty w/ the Dominion keeps us out of the Beta & a huge chunk of Gamma. Before the annex of Bajor, Federation ships hadn't traveled that far yet either. They even explained several times on DS9 that they were months away from any Federation outposts or patroling ship.

 

[Cepstrum]

I'll agree that the VOY characters were fine, but I'm not sure I agree the premise was poor or poorly executed.

I love VOY because of its camp, sense of humor, crew camaraderie, and the fact that it never took itself too seriously. Indeed, it was by catching the end of VOY while it was on and then later taping every episode that caused me to become a complete Trek fan (or at least a fan of TNG, DS9, and VOY).

This is how I see it: there were three terrific TNG-era series that worked because of their differences.

• in TNG, we had extensive moralizing, the exploration of many concepts for the first time, and an older, more "enlightened" crew

• in DS9, we had the pinnacle of great story telling, continuity, character development, story arcs, and big, big events

• in VOY we had a much lighter show, with comedic elements (both intentional and not), absurd situations, and even some implausibility to add an air of lightness after the very heavy DS9 (and also more serious TNG). I would almost call VOY a little charmingly goofy. It is great fun to escape to the adventures of the indestructible Voyager and its "full complement" of shuttles.


I am sure it would've probably done better had it been written with the gravity and complexity of DS9 or the idealistic portrayal of future humanity of TNG, or even like the highly acclaimed BSG.

But as for me, I am glad we have seven seasons of three very different shows that are nonetheless set within the Trek universe (and the TNG era, more specifically.)

I like them all equally for their distinctiveness.

I'll admit, however, that there were more than a few bad VOY episodes with poor stories and that a little more continuity would've been nice. But when I want continuity, I watch DS9.

I understand that VOY is disliked by many and can appreciate that it didn't exactly fulfill the premise outlined for the show. But I love it, and I'm grateful to it for getting me into TNG and DS9.


And again: yes, I thought the characters were fine and the actors all acquitted themselves quite well. I'm going to soon start another thread to pose some questions about the acting in Trek, but that's not relevant to your question.

Thanks for posing your question/comment!

 

[Anwar]

If you wanted VOY to have a storyline as encompassing as DS9's, then they should've just made it another Alpha Quadrant show. DS9's story worked because they had the entire established Trekverse to utilize. VOY didn't have anything to work with when it came to "Galactic Epic".

 

[Praxius]

....to begin with. Replying to the Couple thread got me to thinking about what the problem with Voyager was to begin with.

The actors were all competent. They had better on screen synergy IMHO than TNG for sure, Enterprise, and some of the characters in DS9. The problem with Voyager IMHO was the 'lost in space' premise to begin with.

As with the 1960's campy TV show Lost in Space Voyager suffered from many of the same plot dilemmas that made the show sometimes unwatchable and the plots disjointed.

1. Because they had to keep moving forward it often became the alien of the week episode.

2. Outside of the crew character development unfortunately with other civilizations it often became impossible within the premise of the show itself - and often hokey to have development. e.g. the Kazan.

3. To make some of the plots believable they had to constantly use the time travel reset button to exit out of plot of the episode.

IMHO, the Lost in Space genre is interesting in a film format but not interesting enough to carry through 7 seasons of television without a lot of gerry rigging of the plots to even make it close to believable.

Thoughts?

Makes sense.... constantly moving and never remaining in one spot for very long does cause the issue of not being able to further develop on existing characters and aliens of one area, which usually forces the creators to whip up more and more aliens and situations that also never end up getting fully developed to a point where it can draw in the viewer.

In regards to crew interaction and character development, I personally can not agree with your assessment of them being better then TNG or DS9.... Enterprise, sure... but with Voyager, the characters, while entertaining and often witty and unique.... they just didn't draw me in like the TNG or DS9 characters.

What I mean is that in TNG and DS9, the characters talked like real people.... Troi and Crusher talking women stuff and the men in their lives, O'Brien and Bashir playing their "Games", Odo and Quark bickering at one another, etc. etc.....

In Voyager, there was very little going on between characters besides sharing their feelings about the particular situation they're dealing with or their concerns about encountering said alien species, or the moral implications of such and such..... while Paris delved into his old time holodeck programs and Tuvok helped Kes with her mental abilities.... but there was very little towards useless banter between characters like in TNG and DS9 that made the characters seem more real and relateable. (is that a word?)

But I still like Voyager and appreciate it.... just not as much as the other two.... mind you, imo, Voyager still beats out Enterprise, so that has to count for something

 

[Anwar]

The ironic thing being that no one complains in NuBSG about how the Cylons kept chasing the Galactica refugee fleet despite Galactica always FTL-ing away, but detractors complain over the Kazon chasing Voyager for far less time.