The problem with Voyager wasn't the characters but the premise

[DarthTom]

....to begin with. Replying to the Couple thread got me to thinking about what the problem with Voyager was to begin with.

The actors were all competent. They had better on screen synergy IMHO than TNG for sure, Enterprise, and some of the characters in DS9. The problem with Voyager IMHO was the 'lost in space' premise to begin with.

As with the 1960's campy TV show Lost in Space Voyager suffered from many of the same plot dilemmas that made the show sometimes unwatchable and the plots disjointed.

1. Because they had to keep moving forward it often became the alien of the week episode.

2. Outside of the crew character development unfortunately with other civilizations it often became impossible within the premise of the show itself - and often hokey to have development. e.g. the Kazan.

3. To make some of the plots believable they had to constantly use the time travel reset button to exit out of plot of the episode.

IMHO, the Lost in Space genre is interesting in a film format but not interesting enough to carry through 7 seasons of television without a lot of gerry rigging of the plots to even make it close to believable.

Thoughts?

 

[JanewayRulz!]

Any thoughts on the problem with Voyager?

Well... honestly, no.

See, I had no problem with Voyager.

I liked the fact that they were traveling home, and meeting different aliens along the way.

I like time travel when they give me things like "Future's End" and "Year of Hell" and even "Endgame" (minus the C/7).

I like reset buttons when they give me things like "Before and After", "Year of Hell", "The Killing Game", "Timeless", and "Workforce".

I liked the fact that the aliens they did meet initially, were less advanced like the Kazon. People compare them to street gangs of the 1990's, but their preoccupation with the basics, like water, made me think more of the ranchers in the American west who would say, "Whiskey is for drinking. Water is for FIGHTING over!"

I also liked that the further into their trip they went, they found more and more technologically advanced systems, until they hit the Mother of advanced systems... "The BORG".

Oh, and yes, I loved the BORG, and I loved how we saw this little insect of a ship harrie (sp?) it.

I've said it before and will obviously say it again, one man's meat is another's poison, and that's OKAY!

As for me, here's to a dish well served!

 

[Anwar]

I do think there were problems with VOY's premise. The "We already know where Earth is so we know where to go" thing was a big problem. If they took that out, and made VOY have to GENUINELY explore the area of space they were in then it would've been more like Farscape and allowed for logical repeated use of aliens to flesh them out better.

Also I think the Maquis weren't the best idea, they weren't developed enough as foils to the Fed crew. They should have used Romulans as the second crew, and made them closer in number.

 

[exodus]

Any thoughts on the problem with Voyager?

Well... honestly, no.

See, I had no problem with Voyager.

I liked the fact that they were traveling home, and meeting different aliens along the way.

I like time travel when they give me things like "Future's End" and "Year of Hell" and even "Endgame" (minus the C/7).

I like reset buttons when they give me things like "Before and After", "Year of Hell", "The Killing Game", "Timeless", and "Workforce".

I liked the fact that the aliens they did meet initially, were less advanced like the Kazon. People compare them to street gangs of the 1990's, but their preoccupation with the basics, like water, made me think more of the ranchers in the American west who would say, "Whiskey is for drinking. Water is for FIGHTING over!"

I also liked that the further into their trip they went, they found more and more technologically advanced systems, until they hit the Mother of advanced systems... "The BORG".

Oh, and yes, I loved the BORG, and I loved how we saw this little insect of a ship harrie (sp?) it.

I've said it before and will obviously say it again, one man's meat is another's poison, and that's OKAY!

As for me, here's to a dish well served!

I think I love you!

Seriously, you captured nearly every element I love about Voyager. I also like that Voyager wasa Trek that didn't take itself too seriously, which made it easy for anybody new to Trek to get into without having to know much about any Trek before it.
I don't find Voy. and better or any worse than TNG, which also had it's fair share of flaws. Voy. IMO has still proven that it's a better show than many other sci-fi based shows such as HEROES, V, Eureka and many more.

IMO Voy. still sets the standard many other sci-fi shows try and live up too.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Anwar, you raise some interesting points but I have to disagree that these things would have been necessary or even entirely plausible; the issues could have been avoided if things were handled in a better manner.

For one thing, while I don't fully disagree with you about how it would have been more dramatic and engaging if the crew had zero idea where they were, hadn't it already been long since established that the level of technology the Federation possessed in 2371 would have made it difficult for them not to piece together their location? I'm no uber-buff or anything, but if Picard and Company knew where they were after Q blasted them off into Borg territory, I would think it stands to reason that Janeway and Company would figure it out, too. Wouldn't they?

Besides, the crew was exploring the heck out of everywhere they went. The problem wasn't that they weren't exploring... the problem was the number of viewers who felt a bit stunned that Voyager would spend so much time cataloguing gaseous anomalies or what-have-you when there was a semi-straight line back to the Sol System the whole time. Since they were so keen on exploration to begin with, yes, they should have handled recurring races more smoothly and fleshed them out better. But that's an issue with some of those races, not with the exploration itself. A few of those races were cool, I would say. Many weren't.

The Maquis was a fine idea in my opinion, but like many have pointed out, it was essentially dropped as an ongoing storyline entirely too early, henceforth relegated to an issue or two cropping up every couple of seasons and some throwaway lines about 'how things used to be' and 'how they are now' to remind the audience that Chakotay and Torres were once the enemy. Paris should have been a renegade for a bit longer, too.

Having Romulans as a large portion of the crew is an interesting take, but the average casual viewer might be overwhelmed by the number of aliens of the same species and the reduced number of humans -- or, in the cases of characters such as Jadzia Dax and Kira Nerys, beings who appeared a bit more human. Thinking about things from a 'what's too risky to produce for seven seasons' perspective -- an evil business perspective -- it would have been iffy. And the casual base might get tired of Romulans faster than the more hardcore Trek buffs. Not a good financial situation.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Despite everything I just said, it's still nice to see some folks sticking up for one of the Black Sheep Pair of Treks. I didn't hate Voyager and I look forward to watching it again for the first time since it was originally on the air. (And I was a child to young adolescent then, so I'm sure I'll pick some new things up along the way.)

 

[crusher]

Never found a problem with the idea of the crossing the DQ for home, actually like that we didn't have the contact with the almighty Starfleet. And meeting different aliens gave an interesting twist to the show because to be honest had enough of the Cardassains, Romulans and such.

 

[SchwEnt]

....to begin with. Replying to the Couple thread got me to thinking about what the problem with Voyager was to begin with.

The actors were all competent. They had better on screen synergy IMHO than TNG for sure, Enterprise, and some of the characters in DS9. The problem with Voyager IMHO was the 'lost in space' premise to begin with.

As with the 1960's campy TV show Lost in Space Voyager suffered from many of the same plot dilemmas that made the show sometimes unwatchable and the plots disjointed.

1. Because they had to keep moving forward it often became the alien of the week episode.

2. Outside of the crew character development unfortunately with other civilizations it often became impossible within the premise of the show itself - and often hokey to have development. e.g. the Kazan.

3. To make some of the plots believable they had to constantly use the time travel reset button to exit out of plot of the episode.

IMHO, the Lost in Space genre is interesting in a film format but not interesting enough to carry through 7 seasons of television without a lot of gerry rigging of the plots to even make it close to believable.

Thoughts?

I agree with your points. But moreso, they never even gave it a chance.

They had this premise of a Maquis crew at odds with a Starfleet crew. This premise didn't last much past the first two eps. It was THEIR premise. They didn't even give it a chance.

They had this premise of a starship stranded on the other side of the galaxy. The crew should face hardship and struggle, the ship should be run ragged for survival. This premise was barely acknowledged. Most any eps with the alien/adventure of the week could have been any starship in the AQ, some kind of TNG Jr. Rarely anything substantial to suggest this was really a struggling ship and crew stranded on their own.

The premises of VOY could have worked. They never gave them a chance. What the hell, TPTB INVENTED the series' premises, and then promptly disregarded it. I'll never get that.

 

[Anwar]

Well Jeff, Q simply zapped the Ent-D to another part of the Alpha Quadrant and not Borg space. They were only 2 years away from home in that episode. Voyager was 75 years away. I'm sure if they just stated that they didn't know where they were or that they were in some area of space that the Feds had never been able to get a good long-range scan of the audience would buy that. It's just a conceit of the story, and if the story ends up being good enough the audience will just accept it.

Like I said, if you remove their ability to know the way home then the audience wouldn't have been surprised they were exploring. Do it this way and they just shrug and think "Well, they don't have a choice so I can't complain."

The problem with VOY's races was that they were never going to get the fleshing out they'd need for the audience to accept them if we only ever saw them like 3 times each. None of the classic Trek aliens or TNG's own aliens really are that spectacular if you use only 3 appearances each to gauge them. But keep using them over time and again, they get better.

The Maquis' main reason for opposing the Feds was over the Cardassian situation and the DMZ, both of which were now no longer present. Reasonably they wouldn't have anything further to fight over since they now both had no way to get back home and were away from their reasons for fighting. But if the two crews were genuine enemies with real differences politically and ideologically (like if the others were Romulan) then continued conflict makes more sense.

The audience would get tired of the Romulan presence? They never got tired of the Bajoran/Cardassian/Ferengi presence in DS9, nor did anyone get tired of all the aliens on Farscape. I don't understand the problem. Care to further elaborate?

As for why they ditched the Maquis premise: UPN was afraid that deviating from the established norm (TNG's no-conflict formula) and forced the VOY staff to make it a TNG clone. They also didn't want arcs or sustained damages to the ship.

Sustained damages aren't needed anyways, I mean in Farscape did they have to trash the ship every 2 episodes? No, they hardly ever damaged Moya and when they did they got it fixed up right fast.

 

[Deks]

I think not knowing where they were would be pushing it.
in 'Where no man has gone before' TNG episode, the Enterprise-D was pushed billions of lightyears away, and they STILL were able to calculate where they were (plus, back then, Warp drive [before it was dumb down] was actually much more advanced and it would take them only a couple hundred years to get back).

I find it very plausible the Feds would be able scan farther reaches of the Galaxy, but it's a time-consuming process and closer exploration of it is required later on.

I think the whole 75 years trip was stretching it when we take into account wild fluctuations of Warp technology and speed of the plot.
To make things consistent, they simply could have stated the initial trip damaged the drive to the level of achieving faster warp velocities would require replacing the main core and most of the Warp Coils.
Having alien technology to do that would heavily complicate matters for example, but they could still make it work by bumping up their speed after every season, and reaching SOL by the end of season 7 on their own.

But, I'm pleased with what we got.

 

[Michael]

I'd say the biggest problem was the writing. Voyager had great actors, engaging characters, state-of-the-art special effects, top-notch production design (I loved the ship inside and out), good music, fine directors and a very intersting premise (the most interesting premise of all the Trek series). But boy did they suck at writing good stories most of the time. I mean, I love a lot of Voyager. But it could have been so much more.

 

[Mareika]

I'd say the biggest problem was the writing. Voyager had great actors, engaging characters, state-of-the-art special effects, top-notch production design (I loved the ship inside and out), good music, fine directors and a very intersting premise (the most interesting premise of all the Trek series). But boy did they suck at writing good stories most of the time. I mean, I love a lot of Voyager. But it could have been so much more.

I totally agree in all of your points. And I LOVE Voyager.

 

[Purdy Bear]

I totally agree, I feel there was a limitation of imagination. There were tones of plot lines I alone thought up that were never covered, and that is a real shame.

This is the problem when you only have a few writers, maybe having a bigger pool to draw from would be better.

I also loved the fact they were lost in space, you look at the original Trek and they were always lost or it looked that way.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

I think I love you!

CLOWN/JRulz!: Finally, someone who appreciates me. Am I blushing?

 

[DarthTom]

Any thoughts on the problem with Voyager?

Well... honestly, no.

See, I had no problem with Voyager.

I liked the fact that they were traveling home, and meeting different aliens along the way.

I like time travel when they give me things like "Future's End" and "Year of Hell" and even "Endgame" (minus the C/7).

I like reset buttons when they give me things like "Before and After", "Year of Hell", "The Killing Game", "Timeless", and "Workforce".

I liked the fact that the aliens they did meet initially, were less advanced like the Kazon. People compare them to street gangs of the 1990's, but their preoccupation with the basics, like water, made me think more of the ranchers in the American west who would say, "Whiskey is for drinking. Water is for FIGHTING over!"

I also liked that the further into their trip they went, they found more and more technologically advanced systems, until they hit the Mother of advanced systems... "The BORG".

Oh, and yes, I loved the BORG, and I loved how we saw this little insect of a ship harrie (sp?) it.

I've said it before and will obviously say it again, one man's meat is another's poison, and that's OKAY!

As for me, here's to a dish well served!

I still maintain that 'Lost in Space Star Trek' stymied the writers ability to develop longer story arcs outside of the crew and use illogical plots [e.g. time travel reset buttons] to solve problems within the stories themselves.

 

[DarthTom]

I'd say the biggest problem was the writing. Voyager had great actors, engaging characters, state-of-the-art special effects, top-notch production design (I loved the ship inside and out), good music, fine directors and a very intersting premise (the most interesting premise of all the Trek series). But boy did they suck at writing good stories most of the time. I mean, I love a lot of Voyager. But it could have been so much more.

However the lost in space premise forced them into such ill conceived stories as the Fair Haven and holodeck story lines.

 

[kimc]

However the lost in space premise forced them into such ill conceived stories as the Fair Haven and holodeck story lines.

I don't think it was the premise that did that. After all, if you're lost in space you can write stories about welll, being lost in space. Alien cultures, trouble at space stations you're forced to stop at for repairs, finding resources, etc.

The thing is a lot of the props used in the holodeck stories were already readily available - designing alien space stations, etc would have broken the budget.

 

[Michael]

I'd say the biggest problem was the writing. Voyager had great actors, engaging characters, state-of-the-art special effects, top-notch production design (I loved the ship inside and out), good music, fine directors and a very intersting premise (the most interesting premise of all the Trek series). But boy did they suck at writing good stories most of the time. I mean, I love a lot of Voyager. But it could have been so much more.

However the lost in space premise forced them into such ill conceived stories as the Fair Haven and holodeck story lines.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it would have been cool if they had done the Fair Haven and other holodeck storylines well.

I mean, these aren't bad ideas per se. Like I said, many things were right in place with Voyager. They even had good ideas once in a while. But many episodes sucked anyway. And I'd say it's because there was something amiss in the writing.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Personally, I never liked VOY's premise. I just thought it was the most contrived one for a Star Trek series ever and would produce a lot of predictable "they almost found a way home, but..." stories. After awhile, many of the various bumpy-headed aliens all started to look, sound, and act alike to me, so the journey wasn't all that terribly interesting to me either.

Part of it was that I personally never wouldn't have gone the "lost in space" route if I had created VOY. I would have sent the Voyager on a mission to patrol and keep the peace in a distant corner of Federation space far enough away that going back to Earth wasn't possible in a short period of time and where Starfleet's presence was stretched very thinly (maybe only one starbase or member world) out there. There would be new aliens aplenty, but also some pre-established ones like the Orions, the Klingons, and even the Tholians. Perhaps in that part of the frontier, life was harder for Federation citizens and not as comfy or safe as it is within the core sectors. At times, the Voyager would be called upon to act as police, negotiator, and explorer when necessary...

 

[DarthTom]

Part of it was that I personally never wouldn't have gone the "lost in space" route if I had created VOY. I would have sent the Voyager on a mission to patrol and keep the peace in a distant corner of Federation space far enough away that going back to Earth wasn't possible in a short period of time and where Starfleet's presence was stretched very thinly (maybe only one starbase or member world) out there. There would be new aliens aplenty, but also some pre-established ones like the Orions, the Klingons, and even the Tholians. Perhaps in that part of the frontier, life was harder for Federation citizens and not as comfy or safe as it is within the core sectors. At times, the Voyager would be called upon to act as police, negotiator, and explorer when necessary...

Exactly. A much better premise that would have permitted the crew to occasionally contact Alpha Quadrant regulars.