The problem with Voyager wasn't the characters but the premise

[Cepstrum]

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I didn't really mind that Voyager had underdeveloped aliens because it had other things going for it. DS9 did have some fab villains so that's what I watch if I'm in the mood for some darker trek but Voyager is funnier. Voyager could have been darker if it had been going around as messed up as it probably should have been but I liked it campy, I saw enough broken Voyager in Year of Hell. I kind of like the stupid errors and convenient plot devices to keep everything the same....

EnsignJohnson,

It would appear that we VOY fans like it for similar reasons, and those reasons are the same as why some don't like it!


Anwar: as for Stargate Universe, I haven't seen it. But I loved the humor and camp of SG-1 and Atlantis (John Sheppard and the McGyver guy — forgot his name — were great!) I was even given a season of Atlantis on DVD, though everyone knows I'm a Trekkie first (for a while I had cable TV and would tape Stargate along with Trek.)

Has ST:U ditched the charm and humor of its predecessors? From what I've heard, it's a rather dark show.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Becausde there aren't any Federation ships in 3 of those 4 quaderants.

Let's see...we had the Excelsior exploring the Beta Quadrant.

We had numerous Federation starships and runabouts exploring and roaming the Gamma Quadrant prior to the Dominion War.

We had two Starfleet ships lost in the Delta Quadrant (albeit they weren't brought there by their own power, they still count as being outside the Alpha Quadrant).

There's nothing onscreen to support any of that.

The Neutral Zone only keeps Federation and Romulan ships from crossing into each other's territory, but everything else is apparently fair game. The Neutral Zone seems to exist only where Federation and Romulan space collide. Otherwise, Federation ships can freely cross over into the Beta Quadrant--and presumably, Romulan ships into the Alpha Quadrant--as long as they don't violate the other's space.

The peace treaty with the Dominion had no said provision keeping the Federation out of the Gamma Quadrant. It did however, state that hostilities between the Federation and the Dominion were over. Presumably, Federation ships can once again explore the Gamma Quadrant now that the Founders know the Federation never had any intent to invade and enslave them.
That's because they hadn't discovered the wormhole yet. Once they had a way to the Gamma Quadrant, the Federation didn't waste any time sending ships there.

But this is really neither here nor there, really.

Space is big and three-dimensional, even the "local space" where most of Trek takes place in. There's no reason to think that the Federation is the only nation to send ships into unexplored or alien territory.

They even explained several times on DS9 that they were months away from any Federation outposts or patroling ship.

Who was months away from any Federation outposts or patrolling ship?

I still don't see what this has to do with the complaint about finding the Talaxians deep in the DQ?

I never saw what the complaint had to do with finding some Alpha Quadrant races in the Beta Quadrant and vice-versa.

 

[exodus]

Let's see...we had the Excelsior exploring the Beta Quadrant.

We had numerous Federation starships and runabouts exploring and roaming the Gamma Quadrant prior to the Dominion War.

We had two Starfleet ships lost in the Delta Quadrant (albeit they weren't brought there by their own power, they still count as being outside the Alpha Quadrant).

There's nothing onscreen to support any of that.

The Neutral Zone only keeps Federation and Romulan ships from crossing into each other's territory, but everything else is apparently fair game. The Neutral Zone seems to exist only where Federation and Romulan space collide. Otherwise, Federation ships can freely cross over into the Beta Quadrant--and presumably, Romulan ships into the Alpha Quadrant--as long as they don't violate the other's space.

The peace treaty with the Dominion had no said provision keeping the Federation out of the Gamma Quadrant. It did however, state that hostilities between the Federation and the Dominion were over. Presumably, Federation ships can once again explore the Gamma Quadrant now that the Founders know the Federation never had any intent to invade and enslave them.
That's because they hadn't discovered the wormhole yet. Once they had a way to the Gamma Quadrant, the Federation didn't waste any time sending ships there.

But this is really neither here nor there, really.

Space is big and three-dimensional, even the "local space" where most of Trek takes place in. There's no reason to think that the Federation is the only nation to send ships into unexplored or alien territory.
Who was months away from any Federation outposts or patrolling ship?

I still don't see what this has to do with the complaint about finding the Talaxians deep in the DQ?

I never saw what the complaint had to do with finding some Alpha Quadrant races in the Beta Quadrant and vice-versa.

If the Federation and other species can get to all those places you said they did, then I don't see it as impossable for Talaxians to travel to the other end of the quaderant they're native too.

 

[Anwar]

Anwar: as for Stargate Universe, I haven't seen it. But I loved the humor and camp of SG-1 and Atlantis (John Sheppard and the McGyver guy — forgot his name — were great!) I was even given a season of Atlantis on DVD, though everyone knows I'm a Trekkie first (for a while I had cable TV and would tape Stargate along with Trek.)

Has ST:U ditched the charm and humor of its predecessors? From what I've heard, it's a rather dark show.

Not really, they were trying to make the SG version of NuBSG and they've dropped the charm and humor in favor of random death (in earlier episodes, they stopped it now), sex and nudity, as well as having the new villains come in and point out how the Humans made things worse by taking out the Goa'uld since now there's no order to the galaxy at all.

It has some funny moments when Dean Anderson comes in for a guest spot, but for the most part they're going for a "dark character drama" thing.

It's a "Love it or hate it" show. I like it simply because Colonel Young is the kind of leader I'd rather have over Admiral Adama, because Young's response to a mutiny by the civilians was "Look, I can understand your frustration and dissatisfaction but we're just going to have to live with one another. Please go back to your quarters." while Adama's would be "KILL ALL THOSE TRAITORS!!!!".

 

[Guy Gardener]

Are you forgetting the mutiny after the captain murdered one of the crew?

Voyager would never do that.

Episodes with no big bad or threat.

Voyager would never do that.

The "marquis" executing crew.

Voyager would never do that.

And so on.

And the civilians are highly trained specialists and scientists. Without the lot of them the solider boys couldn't turn on the lights god forbid deal with any problem that ship has ever faced except alien incursion.

taking another show that's good but meek and turning it up to 11 is nothing to be piquey about, consider that Murphy Brown is the Mary Tyler Moore show if you just switch around Lou Grant/Miles and Mary/ Murphy and have you noticed that Dexter is just the Pretender where Jarod actually kills people rather than pretending to kill the "baddies" each week frightening them into confessing to the law about all their bad juju?

 

[C.E. Evans]

I still don't see what this has to do with the complaint about finding the Talaxians deep in the DQ?

I never saw what the complaint had to do with finding some Alpha Quadrant races in the Beta Quadrant and vice-versa.

If the Federation and other species can get to all those places you said they did, then I don't see it as impossable for Talaxians to travel to the other end of the quaderant they're native too.

I don't see what the problem is. Or rather, I don't have a problem with that.

 

[Admiral2]

....to begin with. Replying to the Couple thread got me to thinking about what the problem with Voyager was to begin with.

The actors were all competent. They had better on screen synergy IMHO than TNG for sure, Enterprise, and some of the characters in DS9. The problem with Voyager IMHO was the 'lost in space' premise to begin with.

As with the 1960's campy TV show Lost in Space Voyager suffered from many of the same plot dilemmas that made the show sometimes unwatchable and the plots disjointed.

1. Because they had to keep moving forward it often became the alien of the week episode.

2. Outside of the crew character development unfortunately with other civilizations it often became impossible within the premise of the show itself - and often hokey to have development. e.g. the Kazan.

3. To make some of the plots believable they had to constantly use the time travel reset button to exit out of plot of the episode.

IMHO, the Lost in Space genre is interesting in a film format but not interesting enough to carry through 7 seasons of television without a lot of gerry rigging of the plots to even make it close to believable.

Thoughts?

Sing it, Brother! Hallelooooo-ya!

 

[Anwar]

Here are solutions:

1) Make each season 13 episodes long. This makes it easier to do serial storytelling.

2) Cut back on the cast. Kim, Neelix and Kes could all become recurring characters instead of main castmembers while still being important characters. Hell, maybe even Torres.

3) Remove the way back to Earth from the show, at least at first. Thus, them flying around space randomly and exploring makes more sense.

4) Do what Berman wanted and wait until after 2000 to make the show. That way, they can re-use props from DS9 or just alter them a little in addition to all that other stuff (so they have more for alien weaponry, uniforms, ships, etc). Also, CGI designs would be cheaper by then so they can change VOY's model easier to reflect damage and changes.

5) Do what Berman wanted again, and hire a new writing staff.

6) Do what Piller wanted, and use newer camera techniques and stuff (like what they ended up using on ENT). None of that shaky camera stuff from NuBSG because it's usually crappy unless they do it well, like in District 9.

7) Either put the show on Sci-Fi, or syndicate it. No UPN, because it's a crap network that always inteferes.

8) Don't have the other crew be Maquis, make them Romulans.

These might make things better.

 

[Anwar]

What, no one else has any solutions?

 

[Guy Gardener]

1.A smaller episode count just screws us since only 20 percent of the episodes each season don't suck. 20 percent of 13 is a much smaller number than 20 percent of 26... They're not good enough to succeed with a smaller season, and they only "succeeded" with a larger season because "ordinary" people assumed that the "good" episodes were all the ones they missed. You have to understand that thye don't make sucky episodes on purpose so that the good ones seem better, or even that they accept that there is some standard ration of good to piss poor, they delusionally generally believe that every thing they produce is gold.

2. That might save money, but if they still had the same money to apply that they could afford three or 4 recurring guest roles with the same money as they could for Just Kim to stay in the back ground that would create the illusion of their being an extended crew and not that magically new crewmen are found under sofa cushions every episode.

3. They were randomly exploring space. There were so many routes back to Earth and they kept having had to readjust their course due bastards and failing reserves that... Equinox seemed to head off in a completely different direction entirely thinking they were heading towards earth, but then it's usually a matter of resources seeing how far your ship can fly with out running out of crap they you have to hop from one civilization to another.

4. They weren't allowed to. besides cancelling two shows was harder than cancelling one show. if there was a second show running along side enterprise they would have been able to keep the franchise ticking over when Enterprise was cancelled, Paramount wouldn't have been able to freeze Berman out waiting for his contract to expire.

5. If Berman is denied something, it's part of the huge conspiracy that saw him destroyed.

6. Ditto.

7. Moving would have been good.

8. Well that would have changed every thing. Although the hidden frontier peopel have a Romulan XO in their ship that's trapped Voyageresquely in the Andromeda Galaxy. the Maquyis would have been fine, but why not just make Seska the same Romulan which Martha Hackett already played on DS9... AND SHE STAYED ONBOARD.

 

[Anwar]

1) Well, this is presuming that the lack of UPN and the new writing staff (with more control over the show) would increase the number of good episodes.

2) I'm saying that since Kim wasn't really a good character to begin with (I blame Wang), he'd be better suited to being a recurring character than a real central character. Kes and Neelix too, although both would require a bit of an overhaul in terms of casting and character.

3) Yes, but randomly exploring space is more justified if they don't know where Earth is, or anything about where they are. Look at Farscape.

4) I know, but this is wishful thinking. And I doubt they'd have canceled VOY if it was the 2000/2001 show.

5, 6, 7 and 8) All agreed. Marth Hackett as her Romulan character works too. But kill her too anyways.

 

[stj]

Well, I'm not at all sure of the value of quarrels between crew members over cultural differences despite their dedication to getting home. Anwar's idea of Romulans makes it sensible, unlike the Maquis nonsense. However, having everyone desperate to go home, would tend to make them all rather more depressed, which would be kind of dreary.

Because that is the premise, that over half the crew is not all that enthused about going home, the Maquis because they'll go to prison, Tom because Daddy's there and Kes/Neelix because it isn't even home. If everyone feels lost and homesick, the whole tone of the show is entirely different. I'm not at all sure the Voyager premise needed to be tweaked so everyone was gloomier and meaner to each other.

As for the exploring motif, that was incorporated into the premise as is by the inclusion of Kes and Neelix. Neelix we found out had no home left, so his desire to stay with Voyager made sense. Kes wanted to abandon her home and strike out just because Kes was an amazing person and that's the sort of thing amazing people do. The Kes character had some problems with being Jeri Taylor's idealization maybe.

If anything needed tweaking it was Torres and Paris I think.

 

[Anwar]

Another thing, get Jeri Taylor to help with the characters' conceptions but not the show itself. She didn't even like the premise of the show and was responsible for part of the show's schizophrenia and holodeck stories.

Also, she was the one who turned Janeway into a Mary Sue-type who could never be wrong or challenged within the show.

 

[Ensign Johnson]

I'm quite glad I watched Voyager before watching DS9. Because if I'd saw DS9 first and expected more of the same from Voyager I'd have been disappointed. To me Voyager is horror film while DS9 is a thriller, all the time you get ppl who watch horror films and say they suck but if you expect a horror film and don't take it too seriously it can be more fun than the creepy thriller with a confusing twist at the end. Not sure if that analogy makes sense to anyone else.

 

[Anwar]

If people watched DS9 and came into Voayger expecting more of the Galactic Epic stuff, they deserved to be disappointed. VOY was just not set up in any way to tell a Galactic Epic-style story.

 

[Saquist]

The Ferengi did have some boring episodes but they also had some really funny ones. Quark is one of my fav characters. I like that the Ferengi are so different to all the other aliens on Trek. My least favourite episodes were Jake Sisko episodes and a few Captain Sisko episodes suffered from bad acting. Also Worf being a big grump was annoying. Quark is the sort of character I always like, seems like a bad guy at first but you realise he's nice on the inside. I really liked the Cardassian/Bajoran tension on DS9, being stuck in one place did give DS9 the chance for some really great recurring characters Gul Dukat being one of the best imo. Voyager did quite well with Seska as a baddie but she was no Gul Dukat, she just seemed mental. Perhaps it would have been more interesting if she had stayed aboard Voyager.

There were...some..........good Ferengi episodes, I must admit.

I think Seska was far more evil than Dukat...I think she was far more cardassian than Dukat. To me he was always finding some way....some pathetic way to justify himself. The Bajoran cult, allying with Kira then allying with the Dominion and then allying with the Pah wraiths. He was screwed up.

Seska was ruthless...gloriously ruthless and they missed out on a really awesome series of story arcs with her. SHE was the only TRUE ANTI Janeway in the series....No one else had the KoJones to go up against Janeway. I know the women were strengthed to a absurd degree in Janeway but this is one of the truely awesome matches up and the way she died in Basics Part II...suxed butt.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Sure it was.

Any civilization they bumped into, which was not in it's infancy, should have taken weeks to months to bisect/cross which equates to several episodes back to back per species/culture. Anyone who had the technology to stop/standdown Voyagers passage did have the technology to create their own empire as large and vast as the federation but no one else had seemed to have explored much past their own front yards.

How odd!

 

[vas2009]

I do think there were problems with VOY's premise. The "We already know where Earth is so we know where to go" thing was a big problem. If they took that out, and made VOY have to GENUINELY explore the area of space they were in then it would've been more like Farscape and allowed for logical repeated use of aliens to flesh them out better.

Also I think the Maquis weren't the best idea, they weren't developed enough as foils to the Fed crew. They should have used Romulans as the second crew, and made them closer in number.

They weren't planning to spend a lifetime exploring. They were planning on being home in two weeks so the need to go home was obvious, Sam Wildman was prego with a husband she might of wanted to get back home...Just one example. I think they GENUINLEY did explore they were exploring on their way home. The logic was that there were new aliens the more distance they covered.

I'm really suprised someone would consider the crew wanting to go home such a problem.
Maybe I misunderstood? I don't think it made much cense.


I personally don't think there was anything except *cough Endgame C/7 wrong with Voyager... It all has to do with personal preference... With that said, those of you that think there is something wrong with Voyager, MAYBE there is just something wrong with YOU

 

[Anwar]

Sure it was.

Any civilization they bumped into, which was not in it's infancy, should have taken weeks to months to bisect/cross which equates to several episodes back to back per species/culture. Anyone who had the technology to stop/standdown Voyagers passage did have the technology to create their own empire as large and vast as the federation but no one else had seemed to have explored much past their own front yards.

How odd!

And yet, whenever they tried to explore any of their aliens the audience feedback was always "They shouldn't run into these guys more than once or twice", so the audience themselves didn't know what the hell they wanted since they rejected the show's attempts to GIVE them anything more than alien-of-the-week.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I just assumed there was a month or two between each episode.

I was watching Caroline in the City last night. The one where they give her vagina shaped cereal to brand, and they were focus testing people to see if they noticed that they were eating milk and vagina. So Caroline and the pollster are standing behind a one way mirror watching the focus group.

Caroline "Oh my god! that guy just stole that lady's wallet!"
Pollster "What do you expect? These people are being paid to eat cereal in the middle of the day, They're animals."

Demographogogy is about as real a science as demographogogy is a real world.