I meant their status as Federation citizens; the script varies from time to time as to whether they gave up their status or if they're still actually Federation citizens.
I don't "get" the Maquis at all. Please explain them for me.
- Thread starter Cepstrum
- Start date
That's confusing to me as well. I thought the DMZ divided up UFP and Cardassian territory, with the provision that no Starfleet or Cardassian ships could enter and engage in conflict.
And Eddington did say they were planning to declare independence. Doesn't the confusion result from the situation on Dorvan? But I thought the settlers there had to give up citizenship because that planet ended up on the Cardassian side of the border after the treaty and was no longer part of the UFP. Is that correct?
I agree with you Cepstrum. Dorvan wasn't in the DMZ, it was in what became Cardassian space proper, is my interpretation of what occurred.
So, if one were travelling from Federation to Cardassian space, you'd pass by, in order-
1) Federation Planets and planets the Feds "inherited" from the Cardassians.
2) Federation planets within the Fed side of the DMZ or Maquis planets that weren't considered Federation-governed.
3) Cardassian planets within the Cardie side of the DMZ (did the Cardassians have their own militant movement? who knows?)
4) Cardassian planets and planets such as Dorvan V that were "inherited" from the Feds.
Provided I have this right, it might have clarified things if we'd heard more about how a planet "became" Maquis.
So, if one were travelling from Federation to Cardassian space, you'd pass by, in order-
1) Federation Planets and planets the Feds "inherited" from the Cardassians.
2) Federation planets within the Fed side of the DMZ or Maquis planets that weren't considered Federation-governed.
3) Cardassian planets within the Cardie side of the DMZ (did the Cardassians have their own militant movement? who knows?)
4) Cardassian planets and planets such as Dorvan V that were "inherited" from the Feds.
Provided I have this right, it might have clarified things if we'd heard more about how a planet "became" Maquis.
As I understood it, the Federation and the Cardassians established a fairly normal border by treaty. On the Federation side of the border there was a DMZ that was several light years thick, there was an identical DMZ on the Cardassian side of the border. Both governments controlled their respective side of the borders, including their DMZ's, either could of course enter their own DMZ with ships (including warships), however they just could not station those ships inside the DMZ's, nor could they have military bases in the DMZ's. No fleet exercises inside either.
http://a.imageshack.us/img225/3297/nggggg.gif
This discussion/debate made me curious enough to look back on some old episodes, to make sense of it, and I still can't make heads or tails of the exact situation, at least not yet.
You've got; Some Maquis claimed they left the Federation or given up their citizen already; Which means Starfleet won't render aid to them if they ask.
Yet in other places these same colonists are stated as being Federation citizens, by Starfleet itself.
Or Fed citizens without Starfleet protection, in Cardassian territory-except they've already gave up their citizenship when they agree to stay, yet must answer to Federation laws...
When I get some quotes I'll post them up, but for now the last two explainations and the map makes the most sense..
You've got; Some Maquis claimed they left the Federation or given up their citizen already; Which means Starfleet won't render aid to them if they ask.
Yet in other places these same colonists are stated as being Federation citizens, by Starfleet itself.
Or Fed citizens without Starfleet protection, in Cardassian territory-except they've already gave up their citizenship when they agree to stay, yet must answer to Federation laws...
When I get some quotes I'll post them up, but for now the last two explainations and the map makes the most sense..
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I wonder whether the Maquis claiming to be Federation citizens actually meant it in the past tense, or were just in denial as to the reality of their citizenship situation.
Given their goals, they certainly had nothing to lose and everything to gain by continuing to claim to be Federation citizens until they had enough clout to "officially" go independent.
Given their goals, they certainly had nothing to lose and everything to gain by continuing to claim to be Federation citizens until they had enough clout to "officially" go independent.
The treaty, I think, would qualify as mitigating circumstances. You know, like stopping war with the Cardassians and all that.
Incorrect. We saw a Bolian Starfleet cadet in "Allegiance" and she had hair.
^^^
The treaty, I think, would qualify as mitigating circumstances. You know, like stopping war with the Cardassians and all that.
Incorrect. We saw a Bolian Starfleet cadet in "Allegiance" and she had hair.
you're right. I've since learned only Bolian males are hairless.
I agree that the treaty created extraordinary circumstances, but why did Mr. Mott tell Picard that [Starfleet] shouldn't have let them settle there. I'd think he'd say he'd warned the settlers to stay away. That's why I assumed Starfleet gave (at least tacit) assent.
If Mr. Mott was also the hairdresser aboard the Stargazer prior to Picard becoming Captain of that ship, say while Picard was still a lieutenant, now of course Picard had more hair then and it would have taken Mr, Mott longer to cut it. During one of these sessions the two got to talking about politics as two gentlemen of knowledge will.
Mott: Did you hear about that new chain of class-M planets out beyond the frontier?
Picard: Yes, in the open area inbetween the Federation and the Cardassians.
Mott: Well I hear there are colonists heading out there
Picard: Mott, they're hardly colonists, Neither the Federation, nor any of the Members are sponsoring them, at best they're settlers.
Mott: You know I wouldn't go out there, and the Federation should not permit them to go.
Picard: Of course the Federation can't very well stop them, the planets are well outside the Federation's borders. Plus they're free citizens. They can come and go from the Federation as they see fit.
Mott: Think they'll join the Federation one day?
Picard: That up to them.
Mott: Guess it just a matter of who's frontiers reach them first.
Picard: Just as long as the two frontiers don't get there at the same time, no one wants to see THAT!
Mott: Did you hear about that new chain of class-M planets out beyond the frontier?
Picard: Yes, in the open area inbetween the Federation and the Cardassians.
Mott: Well I hear there are colonists heading out there
Picard: Mott, they're hardly colonists, Neither the Federation, nor any of the Members are sponsoring them, at best they're settlers.
Mott: You know I wouldn't go out there, and the Federation should not permit them to go.
Picard: Of course the Federation can't very well stop them, the planets are well outside the Federation's borders. Plus they're free citizens. They can come and go from the Federation as they see fit.
Mott: Think they'll join the Federation one day?
Picard: That up to them.
Mott: Guess it just a matter of who's frontiers reach them first.
Picard: Just as long as the two frontiers don't get there at the same time, no one wants to see THAT!
^^^^
great, T'Girl. That was an interesting take. (Though there is conflicting evidence about when Picard's hair left. )
One question, though: I thought that at the time they settled (except perhaps those on Dorvan), those planets were within the UFP and only surrendered later (for the peace treaty). Right? Or were those planets in unclaimed territory?
One more question. I'm getting confused again. Were the Maquis only those living on planets given to Cardassia? Or were there some people living on the UFP side who were nevertheless being harrassed indirectly/covertly by the Cardassian government, and hence upset that Starfleet was not properly defending them? If that were the case, it'd make Starfleet look really bad.
Or were the Maquis solely defending themselves on planets that suddenly became Cardassian territory? Either way, as I understand it, neither Starfleet nor Central Command were supposed to bother any settlers, right? Or did the Cardassians have the "right" (as specified in the treaty) that they could forcibly relocate any Federation citizens on the now de jure Cardassian planets?
Ok, that was a lot of questions. Sorry! But I hope someone can help me.
great, T'Girl. That was an interesting take. (Though there is conflicting evidence about when Picard's hair left.
)One question, though: I thought that at the time they settled (except perhaps those on Dorvan), those planets were within the UFP and only surrendered later (for the peace treaty). Right? Or were those planets in unclaimed territory?
One more question. I'm getting confused again. Were the Maquis only those living on planets given to Cardassia? Or were there some people living on the UFP side who were nevertheless being harrassed indirectly/covertly by the Cardassian government, and hence upset that Starfleet was not properly defending them? If that were the case, it'd make Starfleet look really bad.
Or were the Maquis solely defending themselves on planets that suddenly became Cardassian territory? Either way, as I understand it, neither Starfleet nor Central Command were supposed to bother any settlers, right? Or did the Cardassians have the "right" (as specified in the treaty) that they could forcibly relocate any Federation citizens on the now de jure Cardassian planets?
Ok, that was a lot of questions. Sorry! But I hope someone can help me.
We don't know how thick the DMZ was, so some of the maquis settler's worlds might have been far enough from the border not to be in the DMZ. But regardless of the distance, everything on the Cardassian side of the border became completely Cardassian territory. As far as the settlers, at that point in time they were Federation citizens living in a foreign country with the permission (I'm assuming) of the Cardassian government. They were living under Cardassian law and legal structure.
To say the least the Cardassians wanted them out, I believe the settlers were initially allowed to stay because the Cardassian government want the treaty to hold, the Cardassians had fought their territorial war with the Federation and had gotten as much as they figured they were going to get. A resumption of warfare wasn't in their best interests at that time. Maybe later.
At that point in time what the Cardassian wanted was for the settlers to just "voluntarily" leave, considering how how big planets are you might be surprised that the cardassians did just leave the settlers alone, except for two things.
One, the Cardassian government were likely a bunch of control freaks.
And two, the settler possessed something the new Cardassian colonists really wanted -- developed land. I'm assuming here that the settler were growing real food and not just eating plastic food out of a replicator. So if the average settled planet had a population of (guessing) twenty thousand, pre-treaty, that is some seven hundred square miles of developed agricultural holding, water systems, roads, structures, a few small towns, a space port, a space station(?), storage facilities and finally animals. Let's not forget businesses, machine shops, power generators, mineral mines, etc.
The Cardassians had nice virgin valleys and plains. The new Cardassian colonists could SEE what the settlers had already built. Likely they simply wanted it. It possible they offered the settlers the option of relocating elsewhere on the planet and starting over from scratch. The settlers said no.
The impression that I received was that after the first few years of serious altercations the settler did just leave. Many of the settlers would have returned to the Federation in resignation. But others didn't give up. In order to get their homes back, the Cardassians would have to give up their territorial possession of the various worlds (actually the entire star systems).
Sure, and the South shall rise again.
Ok, thanks.
But did the Cardassian government take advantage of the DMZ by covertly/indirectly supplying weapons etc to Cardassians to harass Federation citizens on the Federation side of the DMZ? I figure Central Command knew that Starfleet would do little to directly stop such attacks as long as Central Command didn't overtly send in a bunch of warships. Starfleet would consider it an internal matter that they couldn't or wouldn't do much about to honor the DMZ. That would mean Federation citizens living on Federation worlds would not be receiving the same kind of protection their counterparts living elsewhere would, which could provide the impetus to establish the Maquis to protect themselves.
Or, were the Maquis formed solely to protect Federation citizens that ended up living within new Cardassian territory? That's what I still don't understand.
But did the Cardassian government take advantage of the DMZ by covertly/indirectly supplying weapons etc to Cardassians to harass Federation citizens on the Federation side of the DMZ? I figure Central Command knew that Starfleet would do little to directly stop such attacks as long as Central Command didn't overtly send in a bunch of warships. Starfleet would consider it an internal matter that they couldn't or wouldn't do much about to honor the DMZ. That would mean Federation citizens living on Federation worlds would not be receiving the same kind of protection their counterparts living elsewhere would, which could provide the impetus to establish the Maquis to protect themselves.
Or, were the Maquis formed solely to protect Federation citizens that ended up living within new Cardassian territory? That's what I still don't understand.
Well, the Feds DID intervene and expose the Cardies once they realized that weapons were being provided to assault those who remained in the DMZ. Weaponry in the DMZ is still weaponry in the DMZ. They break it on their side, and they may as well throw the whole treaty out and start the war up again.
I was always of the mind that there really was no "Fed side" or "Cardie side" but just the DMZ as a single big area with Cardassian and Federation colonists living in it without weapons.
The Maquis were formed by the Fed colonists in the DMZ to fight the Cardassians, they spread to the point that they could now be comprised of those in the DMZ and in Cardassian space.
I was always of the mind that there really was no "Fed side" or "Cardie side" but just the DMZ as a single big area with Cardassian and Federation colonists living in it without weapons.
The Maquis were formed by the Fed colonists in the DMZ to fight the Cardassians, they spread to the point that they could now be comprised of those in the DMZ and in Cardassian space.
^^^^
Anwar: that explanation would simplify a lot and make the situation easier to comprehend.
Do others agree? Or was there a UFP side and a CU side? And if so, were Federation citizens living on the UFP side being harassed?
If there were no division, than I think that makes the UFP look bad, for while the CU was known to be supplying weapons to their colonists and sending ships in (which the Maquis then attacked), Starfleet was not protecting its own. Only once their people felt threatened enough to take violent action did Starfleet intervene — and that was to suppress Maquis activity!
OTOH, if Federation colonists were living on CU planets and refused to live under CU law, instead taking up arms to keep de jure CU planets under de facto human (etc) control, then it becomes less morally clear. In that case, they'd just be trying to keep what was taken from them by some far-off leaders signing a planet-swapping deal.
One thing, I think, IS clear: UFP and CU colonists didn't mix. Otherwise, why would Eddington and Sisko try to attack planets with weapons that only affected either humans or Cardassians?
That raises another issue: the Maquis were NOT exclusively human. So Sisko's anti-human attack presumably would have had no effect on the Bolians, Andorians, and even the few Klingons who lived there.
Anwar: that explanation would simplify a lot and make the situation easier to comprehend.
Do others agree? Or was there a UFP side and a CU side? And if so, were Federation citizens living on the UFP side being harassed?
If there were no division, than I think that makes the UFP look bad, for while the CU was known to be supplying weapons to their colonists and sending ships in (which the Maquis then attacked), Starfleet was not protecting its own. Only once their people felt threatened enough to take violent action did Starfleet intervene — and that was to suppress Maquis activity!
OTOH, if Federation colonists were living on CU planets and refused to live under CU law, instead taking up arms to keep de jure CU planets under de facto human (etc) control, then it becomes less morally clear. In that case, they'd just be trying to keep what was taken from them by some far-off leaders signing a planet-swapping deal.
One thing, I think, IS clear: UFP and CU colonists didn't mix. Otherwise, why would Eddington and Sisko try to attack planets with weapons that only affected either humans or Cardassians?
That raises another issue: the Maquis were NOT exclusively human. So Sisko's anti-human attack presumably would have had no effect on the Bolians, Andorians, and even the few Klingons who lived there.
I'm pretty sure a Federation and Cardassian side of the DMZ were explictly mentioned on several occasions.
But in the end, as with many things in Trek, the thing is the writers didn't really think it through beforehand. So we're left trying to connect disjointed pieces of information from different episodes written by different writers at different times (all without a master plan).
My view is the trouble initially started on the CU side of the DMZ and that that's also where most of the fighting took place. But I assume it also spilled over into the UFP side - the Federation colonies there would be ideal as a base for the Maquis and would also be a tempting target for the Cardassian paramilitary forces. With no permanent military forces in the DMZ permitted, the official border between the sides wouldn't really matter much.
But in the end, as with many things in Trek, the thing is the writers didn't really think it through beforehand. So we're left trying to connect disjointed pieces of information from different episodes written by different writers at different times (all without a master plan).
My view is the trouble initially started on the CU side of the DMZ and that that's also where most of the fighting took place. But I assume it also spilled over into the UFP side - the Federation colonies there would be ideal as a base for the Maquis and would also be a tempting target for the Cardassian paramilitary forces. With no permanent military forces in the DMZ permitted, the official border between the sides wouldn't really matter much.
Neozeks has it, no two writers could really agree on what the DMZ was. Some would write of it having two sides, one on the Fed side and another on the Cardassian side. Others wrote as if the DMZ was just one big area of space that was neither Fed nor Cardie but contained the peoples of both. Like the Neutral Zone.
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