I have a problem

[Lord Garth]

I bet this is an atypical advice thread.

I didn't read her reply to my message right away. I avoided it all yesterday because I didn't know what reaction I'd get and wasn't ready to find out. When I told my friend (the one who was the mutual friend who had known her since fifth grade), that I finally spoke up, she said she hoped I wouldn't get a spastic response. Then today I went to work, and afterward I went to see Inception. Do you know when I finally read the reply? Immediately after I posted "I'll talk about this later!" Literally, you got to see my raw reaction.

So, yeah, I really had to push myself to see this through. It was hard but I did it.

 

[SicOne]

I'm glad you handled the situation, though it remains to be seen if you will have to continue to supervise it to be sure she doesn't backslide. It's probably going to be more of a journey than a destination for awhile.

And I am impressed, especially in this day and age of advanced dickiness, that you tried to bridge all sides and do what was best for all parties involved. I would imagine that you have many mutual friends who had interests in this situation, and you would have had to take that into account.

I am not trying to get you to divulge all aspects of what was clearly a difficult personal situation; this IS your life, not grist for the BBS mill...but if at some point you want to clarify to us how you let her down in such a manner that she understood your point, it might help those monitoring this thread that might be on the receiving end of such conversations. Might even help some people not have to end up on the receiving end as well. Many years ago, pre-Mrs SicOne, I spent time on both sides of talks such as these. What I wouldn't have given for some good advice back then!

Now go have that drink!

 

[Angela 0077]

Yes l am glad to that you handled the problem too.

Alot of people will let this type of thing continue not only on this problem but on other things that we sometimes tend to get our selfs involved in.
i always find it is better to talk than let things linger on thats where things can get out of hand.

 

[Angela 0077]

Angela, I don't think JW was being serious.

i know he wasnt serious.

 

[Lord Garth]

at some point you want to clarify to us how you let her down in such a manner that she understood your point, it might help those monitoring this thread that might be on the receiving end of such conversations. Might even help some people not have to end up on the receiving end as well.

I didn't want to talk about details partially because it's personal but also because I was trying to figure out for myself what just happened.

Here's what happened:

In the message, I listed all of the incidents I mentioned here, told her I didn't have romantic feelings, I suspected for a while that she was interested in me, said that I wanted to just be friends, and that if she values our friendship then we should stay just friends. Then I told her not to make this harder for me or her than it already is.

To that she replied that the person she was interested in was someone else. She said she wanted to do all those things with me because she was bored. Then she said she just cried and that she'd leave me alone.

Call me old-fashioned but a woman doesn't ask a man to hold them, dance with them, or sleep over their place unless they're interested in them, right? And it's just the two of them in all of those cases. And she can't do this with any of her other friends? Would it be possible that I'm wrong? It's not like I've never built up something in my head before that turned out to be nothing?

Well, ordinarily I'd consider that possibility except for the fact that one friend said (back in 2006), "I heard you have a girlfriend, (insert name)", to which I said "No, she's not my girlfriend". Then another time -- more recently -- our mutual friend's boyfriend (now fiancee) wanted to know if this woman was interested in me, to which our mutual friend said "Probably but I hope not for his sake!" This in addition to what I thought. Four of us can't all be wrong.

And, while she was married, she'd tried to get friendly with a lot of guys. I'm sure she'd be interested in more than just me. When I said she made a bad choice in who she married, I'm not kidding around. He's a complete loser, in every sense of the word.

 

[T'Grinch]

Would it be possible that I'm wrong?

I don't think so, based on this:

To that she replied that the person she was interested in was someone else. She said she wanted to do all those things with me because she was bored. Then she said she just cried and that she'd leave me alone.

She was trying to salvage her pride at that point.

 

[Lord Garth]

That sounds about right.

.
.
.

So, for those posters who start threads like these from the opposite side of things, here's the best advice I can give, if you actually want to learn something from this: if you think you're getting a hint from someone, take it. Chances are, the other person thinks like me and was just being too polite for their own good.

 

[Mr Awe]

Lord Garth, just wanted to give you kudos for handling this well. Sure, earlier might have been better, but it's obvious that you didn't want to hurt her, that you didn't take advantage of the situation, etc. We need more of that in this world. All in all, you did good given a tough situation!

Mr Awe

 

[iguana_tonante]

And in this age of confusingly super-narcissistic altruism

That's the one of the most insightful thought I ever saw.

Would it be possible that I'm wrong?

I don't think so, based on this:

To that she replied that the person she was interested in was someone else. She said she wanted to do all those things with me because she was bored. Then she said she just cried and that she'd leave me alone.

She was trying to salvage her pride at that point.

T'Bonz is wise in this. If she wasn't really interested, she wouldn't had cried about it, she would have laughed at it.

 

[doubleohfive]

And in this age of confusingly super-narcissistic altruism

That's the one of the most insightful thought I ever saw.

Thanks. Its something I think that is becoming a huge issue with people today, worse than just how self-involved and self-entitled people (and I include myself in this) are tending to become.

 

[FordSVT]

3)start talking about that great beastiality site you found last night.

If life was a R-rated movie, that would backfire in the most horrible way possible.

 

[Kestra]

And in this age of confusingly super-narcissistic altruism

That's the one of the most insightful thought I ever saw.

Thanks. Its something I think that is becoming a huge issue with people today, worse than just how self-involved and self-entitled people (and I include myself in this) are tending to become.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that term. Can you elaborate?

 

[doubleohfive]

Narcissism among your average person these days is at an all-time high. It only makes sense that there would be people out there who would be simultaneously narcissistic but also altruistic at the same time. It's confusing as hell because the person in question is at war with themselves.

Right now is the "ME! ME! ME! ME! Generation;" but the throughline of self-sacrificial altruism is there too, and while conventional wisdom would seem to suggest that the two would cancel each other out, they just wind up driving people crazy.

Think of it in relation to the 'nice guy syndrome.' Nice guys are, usually exactly that. But they can't understand why the girls they want aren't interested. It doesn't occur to these nice guys that there's a whole world of other thoughts, issues, and psychology inside these ladies' heads that the nice guys arent' taking in to account ... all the nice guy knows is she's not interested and he can't figure it out. Yet he's still the nice guy.

Not to point too obvious a finger here but Lord Garth's situation almost illustrates the example. This girl wanted him to do all these things the nice guy does, despite his having no interest in playing that role. She's narcissistic about it. And at the risk of getting in trouble for saying it, Lord Garth is being both narcissistic and altruistic about it. Narcissistic in that he (naturally) assumed that this girl was crazy for him and that he (and only he) had the ability to solve her problem (because she created this idea in her narcissistic head) but at the same time, Lord Garth's altruism led him to wanting to fix the situation the "right" way for both of them and with the least amount of drama, hurt or social mis-steps. That altruism is also probably a factor in why he's being so hard on himself after the fact.

Now, I don't know if any of the above has any legitimate standing in terms of what's going on; I'm just basing it on what's in the thread and my own experience with people and could very well be wrong ... it just strikes me that it was a perfect example of the supernarcissistic altruism I've been encountering with more frequency of late.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that term. Can you elaborate?

The way I see it (and it may or may not be the same as 005 intended), it's the advertising of good deeds that I consider unhealthy. Sure, people always liked to make a show of their generosity and good deeds but, outside of a few high-profile philanthropists, that rarely went beyond family or maybe the neighbourhood. With the emphasis of our culture on communications and the ease of access to self-advertising, it is becoming a fashion trend. The guy that rescued a cat from a tree has 300,000 fans on facebook. The girl that tackled the mugger is interviewed on national television. Doing good is not enough. People want an audience. Possibly, a global one. A planetary "look at me, I'm gooooood!" cry. I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad thing: in the end, they are still doing good. But I cannot help but feel it is a slippery slope. There is too small a space between "Will this make me look good?" and "Why should I do this since there is nobody around to see it?"

I hope it makes sense also outside of my head.

 

[Lord Garth]

Not to point too obvious a finger here but Lord Garth's situation almost illustrates the example. This girl wanted him to do all these things the nice guy does, despite his having no interest in playing that role. She's narcissistic about it.

Yes.

And at the risk of getting in trouble for saying it, Lord Garth is being both narcissistic and altruistic about it. Narcissistic in that he (naturally) assumed that this girl was crazy for him and that he (and only he) had the ability to solve her problem (because she created this idea in her narcissistic head)

I don't think so. If that were true, then I would've said "yes" to all the things she asked of me instead of "no". And the only thing that can help her is a therapist.

Just because I'm nice doesn't mean I'm stupid. Which leads into the next point...

but at the same time, Lord Garth's altruism led him to wanting to fix the situation the "right" way for both of them and with the least amount of drama, hurt or social mis-steps. That altruism is also probably a factor in why he's being so hard on himself after the fact.

That's right.

2 out of 3 isn't bad.

 

[doubleohfive]

And at the risk of getting in trouble for saying it, Lord Garth is being both narcissistic and altruistic about it. Narcissistic in that he (naturally) assumed that this girl was crazy for him and that he (and only he) had the ability to solve her problem (because she created this idea in her narcissistic head)

I don't think so. If that were true, then I would've said "yes" to all the things she asked of me instead of "no". And the only thing that can help her is a therapist.

Just because I'm nice doesn't mean I'm stupid.

Of course you aren't stupid. That's not what I was saying. Clearly you didn't say "yes" to all the things she asked for, because of your altruism toward the entire situation. The narcissistic tendency she had going (that you were the only one who could fix her problems) was equally balanced out by your own narcissistic imperative to not let yourself slip in to that role. You want to do the right thing, with the least amount of hurt. Did you ever actually say to her, "Go see your therapist" ? Not that I can recall. Instead, you queried all of us here on the BBS (looking for an audience, perhaps) to get advice. Hand in hand with the altruistic nature of your reaction when it was all said and done ("I'm not talking about the details here, that's private") led me to conclude what I've concluded.

I'm not trying to pigeon-hole you, just explain why I came to these conclusions, that's all.

Call me old-fashioned but a woman doesn't ask a man to hold them, dance with them, or sleep over their place unless they're interested in them, right? And it's just the two of them in all of those cases. And she can't do this with any of her other friends? Would it be possible that I'm wrong? It's not like I've never built up something in my head before that turned out to be nothing?

Look, I don't mean to suggest that you're only thinking about yourself here, because it's clear you aren't. But at the same time you're wondering if it's about you, if it really is you she was after and it's only natural to do so. That component of the narcissism is what I was referring to.

 

[doubleohfive]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that term. Can you elaborate?

The way I see it (and it may or may not be the same as 005 intended), it's the advertising of good deeds that I consider unhealthy. Sure, people always liked to make a show of their generosity and good deeds but, outside of a few high-profile philanthropists, that rarely went beyond family or maybe the neighbourhood. With the emphasis of our culture on communications and the ease of access to self-advertising, it is becoming a fashion trend. The guy that rescued a cat from a tree has 300,000 fans on facebook. The girl that tackled the mugger is interviewed on national television. Doing good is not enough. People want an audience. Possibly, a global one. A planetary "look at me, I'm gooooood!" cry. I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad thing: in the end, they are still doing good. But I cannot help but feel it is a slippery slope. There is too small a space between "Will this make me look good?" and "Why should I do this since there is nobody around to see it?"

I hope it makes sense also outside of my head.

This is EXACTLY what I was trying to say. Thank you, iguana, for elaborating on it more precisely than I was able to.

Everybody wants an audience these days, but they also want to have it because they think they deserve it. Not because they're making a big sturm and drang over here about some issue, but because they're good, self-sacrificial people.

It happens here on this very BBS all the time. There's a misunderstanding and someone apologizes, not because they're genuinely sorry but because they wish to gain the favor of public opinion here. That's narcissistic altruism and the people who suffer from it drive themselves nuts because they're never able to just be happy.

 

[Lord Garth]

Call me old-fashioned but a woman doesn't ask a man to hold them, dance with them, or sleep over their place unless they're interested in them, right? And it's just the two of them in all of those cases. And she can't do this with any of her other friends? Would it be possible that I'm wrong? It's not like I've never built up something in my head before that turned out to be nothing?

No, not narcissistic at all.

Look, I don't mean to suggest that you're only thinking about yourself here, because it's clear you aren't. But at the same time you're wondering if it's about you, if it really is you she was after and it's only natural to do so. That component of the narcissism is what I was referring to.

Okay, I see what you're getting at now.

 

[Lord Garth]

It happens here on this very BBS all the time. There's a misunderstanding and someone apologizes, not because they're genuinely sorry but because they wish to gain the favor of public opinion here. That's narcissistic altruism and the people who suffer from it drive themselves nuts because they're never able to just be happy.

Sometimes it hasn't been to gain favor of public opinion of the board in general so much as it's been to gain favor with the staff.

Once, five years ago, I had an MA thread and there was a poster who apologized for something they did in a thread I had to deal with. It was an insincere apology if I ever saw one, and the poster said they would try to not do what they did again. Try. So I called him on it and I essentially said "You don't try to do it, you either do it or you don't." Then the poster said (paraphrasing) "Yes, of course."

Neroon -- who was still the MA mod -- said I sounded like Yoda. Actually, I was channeling Morpheus.

But that's a whole other topic.

 

[sidious618]

Right now is the "ME! ME! ME! ME! Generation;"

That generation has always been around; now we just have the means to vocalize it even more.