Does anyone find DS9 to be a bit of a yawn?

[TheGodBen]

Well, you and Ron Moore find yourselves in excellent company.

Tell you what, I'll call Ron and tell him about you, then we can all meet up in his house one night to watch the episode while drinking scotch and enjoying some smokes.

They're overly religious,

Yep, over religious ppl are def destroying society and are so irritating....helping the poor w/out govt $$, running orphanages, helping disintegrating families and building homes from scratch is so irritating......

Religious people also worsen the AIDS crisis in Africa, try to prevent gay rights, feel they have a divine right to take over other people's land...

My point is this: Religion has both good and bad aspects, and one of the great things about DS9 was that it showed both sides of the issue. On the one hand you have the likes of Kira and Bareil that use their faith for good, then there's Winn and Weyoun who use their faith for evil. Just because Winn used faith as a way of attaining power doesn't mean that Kira was a bad person, and that's exactly the way it is in real life.

 

[tomalak301]

There are some episodes that are yawn worthy, but it's like that for all the series. Overall though, DS9 is awesome and it's good episodes outweigh the bad quite a bit.

 

[Marie1]

Well, you and Ron Moore find yourselves in excellent company.

Tell you what, I'll call Ron and tell him about you, then we can all meet up in his house one night to watch the episode while drinking scotch and enjoying some smokes.

They're overly religious,

Yep, over religious ppl are def destroying society and are so irritating....helping the poor w/out govt $$, running orphanages, helping disintegrating families and building homes from scratch is so irritating......

Religious people also worsen the AIDS crisis in Africa, try to prevent gay rights, feel they have a divine right to take over other people's land...

My point is this: Religion has both good and bad aspects, and one of the great things about DS9 was that it showed both sides of the issue. On the one hand you have the likes of Kira and Bareil that use their faith for good, then there's Winn and Weyoun who use their faith for evil. Just because Winn used faith as a way of attaining power doesn't mean that Kira was a bad person, and that's exactly the way it is in real life.

Well, that could be caused by secular people stealing charity money, and warlords stealing land too. Those aren't religious people, they're "religious" people- that's the difference.

For that matter- people whose lives are centered around getting money or power are just religiously seeking those ends.

Winn didn't use religion for evil so much as she used ambition and power for evil. Her rise religiously gave her a bit on an in, but that was her goal, she could've probably managed to do it secularly, even in a religious culture like the ones the Bajorans had.

Also- no smoking!!

 

[PKTrekGirl]

My point is this: Religion has both good and bad aspects, and one of the great things about DS9 was that it showed both sides of the issue. On the one hand you have the likes of Kira and Bareil that use their faith for good, then there's Winn and Weyoun who use their faith for evil. Just because Winn used faith as a way of attaining power doesn't mean that Kira was a bad person, and that's exactly the way it is in real life.

Well, I don't really agree that Winn used faith itself for evil. She used the trappings of faith for evil, but she never really understood true faith. She lost faith in the prophets long before the end of the series, and relied on her position of power and the trappings of faith, not her actual faith, to perpetrate her evil deeds.

Subtle difference there...but a difference nonetheless.

I agree about Weyoun...but if the 'gods' themselves are evil...then it stands to reason that the 'true believers' following them would be evil.

 

[DanCPA]

I agree about Weyoun...but if the 'gods' themselves are evil...then it stands to reason that the 'true believers' following them would be evil.

Not necessarily. Good people can sometimes have horrible heroes.
You needn't look further than in American culture. Washington was a slave owner who went out of his way to keep his slaves as property. Jackson slaughtered entire Native American communities and then stole their land. Jefferson was a slave owner who likely "owned" his children and slept with his wife's sister.
Yet their legacies drive millions of Americans who do good deeds around the world trying to help others.
Washington, the father of the United States itself. Jefferson, one of the most revered historical figures in our nations history. Jackson, the father of the modern democratic party.

 

[RandyS]

Re: Hope you have a good anti-virus program

Judge not lest ye be judged.

Anyway, S1 has some weak episodes but just wait..........................

I had the same attitude too, until Way of the Warrior.

OK .. As soon as "You know what" (am I in a Harry Potter movie?) is finished I'll give it another airing all the way through to season seven and see what happens.

On a final positive note .. as far as space stations go .. DS9 craps all over Babylon 5 ..


Oh hell! .. now all the B5 fanatics are going to go for my throat.

For $25 million I'll forget I ever heard that.

Seriously though, DS9 and B5 are both excellent sci-fi shows. You ought to give both another chance.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

I agree about Weyoun...but if the 'gods' themselves are evil...then it stands to reason that the 'true believers' following them would be evil.

Not necessarily. Good people can sometimes have horrible heroes.
You needn't look further than in American culture. Washington was a slave owner who went out of his way to keep his slaves as property. Jackson slaughtered entire Native American communities and then stole their land. Jefferson was a slave owner who likely "owned" his children and slept with his wife's sister.
Yet their legacies drive millions of Americans who do good deeds around the world trying to help others.
Washington, the father of the United States itself. Jefferson, one of the most revered historical figures in our nations history. Jackson, the father of the modern democratic party.

Well, I don't think any of those guys were 'evil'. I think they were a product of the times in which they lived. Not defending what they did...but hindsight, is, after all, 20/20. And what is quite obviously wrong to us right now was perhaps not so obviously so back then.

 

[TheGodBen]

Well, that could be caused by secular people stealing charity money, and warlords stealing land too. Those aren't religious people, they're "religious" people- that's the difference.

Well that depends, are the Jews that built their homes in Gaza and the West Bank (because they felt that God gave that land to the Jews) religious or "religious"? When the members of the Westboro Baptist Church picket funerals of servicemen they're not doing it for power or money, they're doing it because they truly believe that God is punishing America for accepting homosexuals. When Pope Benedict XVI preaches that the use of condoms is a sin, he's not doing that for power, he'd have more power if he said otherwise because more young people in the western world would be more likely to listen to him. He preaches that message because he has faith that this is what God wants him to do.

There are genuine religious people whose faith drives actions that I find immoral. Not all religious people are like that, and I know that religious faith often drives positive actions, such as charity and a sense of community. Like I said, this is what I like about DS9, it doesn't judge all religion as bad and reflects some of the positive aspects of it, but it also shows some of the negatives. It's a pretty well balanced view of religion overall. As for those that disregard the Bajorans because they are a religious society... I think they're pretty silly.

Also- no smoking!!

Yes, Mrs Ron.

Well, I don't really agree that Winn used faith itself for evil. She used the trappings of faith for evil, but she never really understood true faith. She lost faith in the prophets long before the end of the series, and relied on her position of power and the trappings of faith, not her actual faith, to perpetrate her evil deeds.

Subtle difference there...but a difference nonetheless.

I would agree with that, Winn's faith wasn't what drove her to evil because she later admits that she had no faith. But it is the faith of others that allows the institution of the Kai to exist, and it is that faith which gives her the power to commit evil. Faith in a God is sometimes mixed up with faith in the institution based around that God, and when that happens it can lead to bad things, such as the various sex-abuse scandals that the Catholic church covered up around the world. At one point on DS9, Winn was made First Minister purely because she was Kai, and the consequences of that could have been disastrous had Kira not stopped her.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Well, I don't really agree that Winn used faith itself for evil. She used the trappings of faith for evil, but she never really understood true faith. She lost faith in the prophets long before the end of the series, and relied on her position of power and the trappings of faith, not her actual faith, to perpetrate her evil deeds.

Subtle difference there...but a difference nonetheless.

I would agree with that, Winn's faith wasn't what drove her to evil because she later admits that she had no faith. But it is the faith of others that allows the institution of the Kai to exist, and it is that faith which gives her the power to commit evil. Faith in a God is sometimes mixed up with faith in the institution based around that God, and when that happens it can lead to bad things, such as the various sex-abuse scandals that the Catholic church covered up around the world. At one point on DS9, Winn was made First Minister purely because she was Kai, and the consequences of that could have been disastrous had Kira not stopped her.

Well, I don't believe an institution (whether that be a religion, a government, a corporation, or whatever) is inherently good or evil either. IMO, it all comes down to the individuals within it...and the choices they make.

The Catholic Church itself is not a bad thing. It's nothing more than a system of beliefs, based directly on the words and actions of Christ and the apostles.

However, that is completely separate from sundry individuals over the centuries who have perpetrated great harm...and who have been Catholics. People are people - they make mistakes, they screw up huge sometimes...and some of them are bad people - they might be predatory...they might be cruel, they might be cowards...they might be any number of bad things and they might have any number of weaknesses. But those who perpetrate great harm are responsible for that harm..and those who covered up that harm are responsible for compounding that harm.

However, that does not mean that everything that Jesus taught, and that the Catholic Church has preserved over the centuries, is null and void.

People need to be judged on their own merits, or lack thereof. The people within the institution of the Church who have done great good will be judged by God according to what they have done...and those who have done great evil will also be judged by God according to what they have done.

There must be (and is) a critical element of personal responsibility there. In fact, that itself is part of Church doctrine. Everyone is responsible for their own actions and will be judged accordingly.

It's the same with Kai Winn. She used the trappings of faith to manipulate the Bajoran people...and she ultimately suffered the consequences for that. But do her evil actions nullify the good that Sisko, the Emissary did? I don't think so, despite the fact that they were both very much a part of the Bajoran faith - indeed, the leaders of it.

I don't see the Bajoran's faith system as a bad thing. I see Kai Winn's greed and thirst for power...and the actions that flowed from that, as the bad thing.

Bad people will use anything they can to perpetrate evil - whether that be a religion, a governmental system or agency, or a position of power in a corporation. But that does not make all religions, governments and corporations bad. It only makes some people bad.

 

[Admiral Shran]

Also- no smoking!!

If we promise to smoke outside after we enjoy the episode, will that be alright?

Also, TheGodBen, do you think it's possible to get Scott Bakula in on the festivities? Or will he be too busy tending to his ponies?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Ship exploring strange new worlds VS space station.. here's why I personally love the space station more.

Ship stories introduce new aliens continuously.. we meet them briefly, they are rarely very developed and then we almost never see them again. One of the main story lines, played over and over, is that these aliens are not really as they first appear. Okay it DID take several hundred Star Trek eps for me to get tired of this, and I can still be enchanted by an ep that develops the main characters while playing this out but I am not falling over myself to see more of this kind of story.

DS9 introduced 3 new species that became major players over many seasons. The Jem Hadar, the Vorta and the Founders. We learned more and more about them as the seasons unfolded and we saw not just one or two of them but many of each species.

DS9 took briefly seen species from TNG and completely developed them. The Ferengi, the Bajorans, the Trill, the Cardassians. Not only did we have numerous characters from each species we got to see their planets, their politics and their society in action. We didn't just beam down, interact, have a misunderstanding, reveal the truth and then warp away. This was an incredible contribution to the Trek franchise.

(One of ENT's strengths was to develop long unseen species, Andorians greatly and Tellarites a bit.)

Yes we DID explore and discover something new in DS9, but it was a discovery of complete societies rather than a new planet every week. It was the exploration of entire peoples rather than a new not-as-it-appears nebula. It was the creation of whole worlds that was so deeply interesting in DS9.

 

[Marie1]

Well, that could be caused by secular people stealing charity money, and warlords stealing land too. Those aren't religious people, they're "religious" people- that's the difference.

Well that depends, are the Jews that built their homes in Gaza and the West Bank (because they felt that God gave that land to the Jews) religious or "religious"? When the members of the Westboro Baptist Church picket funerals of servicemen they're not doing it for power or money, they're doing it because they truly believe that God is punishing America for accepting homosexuals. When Pope Benedict XVI preaches that the use of condoms is a sin, he's not doing that for power, he'd have more power if he said otherwise because more young people in the western world would be more likely to listen to him. He preaches that message because he has faith that this is what God wants him to do.

There are genuine religious people whose faith drives actions that I find immoral. Not all religious people are like that, and I know that religious faith often drives positive actions, such as charity and a sense of community. Like I said, this is what I like about DS9, it doesn't judge all religion as bad and reflects some of the positive aspects of it, but it also shows some of the negatives. It's a pretty well balanced view of religion overall. As for those that disregard the Bajorans because they are a religious society... I think they're pretty silly.

Also- no smoking!!

Yes, Mrs Ron.

Well, I don't really agree that Winn used faith itself for evil. She used the trappings of faith for evil, but she never really understood true faith. She lost faith in the prophets long before the end of the series, and relied on her position of power and the trappings of faith, not her actual faith, to perpetrate her evil deeds.

Subtle difference there...but a difference nonetheless.

I would agree with that, Winn's faith wasn't what drove her to evil because she later admits that she had no faith. But it is the faith of others that allows the institution of the Kai to exist, and it is that faith which gives her the power to commit evil. Faith in a God is sometimes mixed up with faith in the institution based around that God, and when that happens it can lead to bad things, such as the various sex-abuse scandals that the Catholic church covered up around the world. At one point on DS9, Winn was made First Minister purely because she was Kai, and the consequences of that could have been disastrous had Kira not stopped her.

Who is Ron?

But that's just it- those people are stretching stuff in the Bible, or plain ignoring it. I can call myself Christian, but if I run around killing homosexuals (thou shalt not kill) and picketing funerals (as far as it depends upon you, be peaceable with all men) then I'm not. Not really. The Bajorans had a caste system, they had a lot of civil fighting, etc.- that can't possibly be within the Prophet's teachings...

(I get you, by the way- I hate hypocrisy, religious or otherwise... )

Also- no smoking!!

If we promise to smoke outside after we enjoy the episode, will that be alright?

No, but if you must, it must be in a plastic bubble, all air must be triple filtered before it goes outside.

 

[TheGodBen]

The Catholic Church itself is not a bad thing. It's nothing more than a system of beliefs, based directly on the words and actions of Christ and the apostles.

However, that is completely separate from sundry individuals over the centuries who have perpetrated great harm...and who have been Catholics. People are people - they make mistakes, they screw up huge sometimes...and some of them are bad people - they might be predatory...they might be cruel, they might be cowards...they might be any number of bad things and they might have any number of weaknesses. But those who perpetrate great harm are responsible for that harm..and those who covered up that harm are responsible for compounding that harm.

While the institution itself might not be harmful, and most of the individuals within that institution may be good and honourable people, but blind faith in the institution rather than the God is dangerous. I can't speak for other parts of the world, but I know that in my own country the blind faith that the majority had in the Catholic church was harmful to our society in many ways. On the issue of child abuse, some people had so much faith that the church was right in all things that they didn't believe their own children when they were told of the abuse. Those that did go to the police were often ignored because even the police didn't want to be seen to be taking on the church. The families that did speak out were sometimes ostracised from their communities by those that refused to believe the claims.

Not all institutions are bad or corrupt, but no institution should be excused from scrutiny, be it a government, a private company or a religious organisation. If the majority of people give an institution their blind faith and do not question it then there will be those that join that institution seeking power over others. Winn was such a person, and she was given control over a whole planet because not enough people were willing to question her motives. If it wasn't for Kira standing up against her, Winn could have led Bajor to disaster.

I think that Kira is a good example of a religious person. She believes in the Prophets, she knows that they're real, she has faith that Sisko is the Emissary because he has proven that he is, but she doesn't believe that Winn is good or infallible just because she was elected Kai. She knew that Winn was a bad person, her title didn't matter. If Bareil had been elected instead then Kira would have followed him, not because he was Kai, but because she knew him to be a good person.

And he was good in bed.

However, that does not mean that everything that Jesus taught, and that the Catholic Church has preserved over the centuries, is null and void.

And I would never suggest such a thing. I'm not a Christian and I don't think that Jesus was the son of God, but I'd like to think that he was a real guy preaching a message of peace and tolerance. I agree with a lot of what Jesus said, but not the part about giving away all my possessions. I like my TV too much.

Also, TheGodBen, do you think it's possible to get Scott Bakula in on the festivities? Or will he be too busy tending to his ponies?

Are you suggesting that Scott does anything untoward with his animals? He would never do such a thing, he was only in his underwear in that picture because he likes posing in his tighty-whities.

Anyway, he's busy over the next few weeks, he has 5 roles in a play.

 

[Admiral Shran]

(One of ENT's strengths was to develop long unseen species, Andorians greatly and Tellarites a bit.)

Agreed. I only wish they had spent more time developing these races (the Tellarites especially) instead of wasting time "exploring" in the first two seasons.

I think that Kira is a good example of a religious person. She believes in the Prophets, she knows that they're real, she has faith that Sisko is the Emissary because he has proven that he is, but she doesn't believe that Winn is good or infallible just because she was elected Kai. She knew that Winn was a bad person, her title didn't matter. If Bareil had been elected instead then Kira would have followed him, not because he was Kai, but because she knew him to be a good person.

I'm a Christian, a Catholic actually, and I'd like to think of myself as like Kira in my faith. I believe that John Paul II and Benedict XVI are good people, but that doesn't mean I think they're completely infalliable. I disagree with several things that they've taught, such as condom use. Blind faith in the institution is something I hope I never have.

Are you suggesting that Scott does anything untoward with his animals? He would never do such a thing, he was only in his underwear in that picture because he likes posing in his tighty-whities.

No, I'm just saying he has a lot of animals to take care of. That takes a lot of time and effort.

Anyway, he's busy over the next few weeks, he has 5 roles in a play.

Only five? He must be cutting back in preperation for the possible upcoming Quantum Leap movie.

 

[DanCPA]

Well, I don't think any of those guys were 'evil'. I think they were a product of the times in which they lived.

That's just it right there... Just as you can make justifications for our national "Gods," they make justifications and consider to hold reverence to their Gods.

Not defending what they did...but hindsight, is, after all, 20/20. And what is quite obviously wrong to us right now was perhaps not so obviously so back then.

Philadelphia had already set up a system where a slave was granted their freedom and President Washington deliberately took them out of the state right before they were considered residents of Philadelphia and saved. They knew it was wrong.
Jackson killed and killed the native population. I don't recall any point in history where it was ok to slaughter a people.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Well, I don't think any of those guys were 'evil'. I think they were a product of the times in which they lived.

That's just it right there... Just as you can make justifications for our national "Gods," they make justifications and consider to hold reverence to their Gods.

Not defending what they did...but hindsight, is, after all, 20/20. And what is quite obviously wrong to us right now was perhaps not so obviously so back then.

Philadelphia had already set up a system where a slave was granted their freedom and President Washington deliberately took them out of the state right before they were considered residents of Philadelphia and saved. They knew it was wrong.
Jackson killed and killed the native population. I don't recall any point in history where it was ok to slaughter a people.

Well, if that were the case, then why wasn't Jackson prosecuted for committing genocide and removed from office?

Clearly, the American public at that time didn't see it in the terms we see it in today. Otherwise, he would have been removed from office and tried for crimes against humanity.

I stand by what i said, I'm afraid. At the times and in the context in which they lived, the actions they took where apparently not considered to be so awfully wrong. I'm not defending their actions by any means - I'm just saying that living IN a time period is alot different from looking at it with the benefit of hindsight and an 'evolved' sense of right & wrong with regard to issues of human rights and dignity, 150 to 200 years later.

 

[DanCPA]

Well, if that were the case, then why wasn't Jackson prosecuted for committing genocide and removed from office?

THe court had made a ruling before this and Jackson pretty much said that the court had made their ruling, let them try to enforce it.
And to be removed, the House and Senate would have had to remove their own sitting President. (political party speaking)

 

[TheGodBen]

Who is Ron?

Ron Moore. It was a running joke on the BSG podcast that he'd drink and smoke different brands of scotch and cigarettes each week, but he wasn't allowed to smoke when his wife (nicknamed Mrs Ron) was about. There's a page at the BSG wiki that chronicled the different brands.

No, I'm just saying he has a lot of animals to take care of. That takes a lot of time and effort.

Luckily for those animals, Scott has the energy of ten regular actors!

Only five? He must be cutting back in preperation for the possible upcoming Quantum Leap movie.

It's not a sure thing yet, he still has to audition for the part of Sam. He's also auditioning for Al, the role of the romantic interest, the role of the romantic interest's young son, and Ziggy.

 

[Photon]

My point is this: Religion has both good and bad aspects, and one of the great things about DS9 was that it showed both sides of the issue. On the one hand you have the likes of Kira and Bareil that use their faith for good, then there's Winn and Weyoun who use their faith for evil. Just because Winn used faith as a way of attaining power doesn't mean that Kira was a bad person, and that's exactly the way it is in real life.

Well, I don't really agree that Winn used faith itself for evil. She used the trappings of faith for evil, but she never really understood true faith. She lost faith in the prophets long before the end of the series, and relied on her position of power and the trappings of faith, not her actual faith, to perpetrate her evil deeds.

Subtle difference there...but a difference nonetheless.

I agree about Weyoun...but if the 'gods' themselves are evil...then it stands to reason that the 'true believers' following them would be evil.

Boo-ya.....one aGAIN....TrekGirl nails it...............the Mods are wiiiiisssseeeeee

 

[Too Much Fun]

DS9 is fine and dandy for me, but the Bajoran episodes are one giant borefest and I try my best to avoid them. Or at least cross my arms and be negative when I watch them. Pretty much every Bajoran aside from Leeta (And yes, I'm including Kira) embody every annoying trait out there. They're overly religious, they complain all the time, and their ego is totally inflated. As such I find episodes revolving around them and their beloved Prophets to be un-interesting.

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