The Wire - no spoilers!

[Kegg]

Sounds like The West Wing is more up your street then, it has the politics and bureaucracy but it's more theatrical and favours drama over realism. To be honest, I prefer it over The Wire, even though I feel that The Wire is the better show from an objective standpoint.

I like this show a lot better than The West Wing (what I've seen of the latter); mostly, I guess, because it's far more subtle. I never really feel like the show's taken some time out from the narrative to beat me over the head with how right the showrunner is about policy. And the Carcetti stuff is frequently where the Wire gets to shine in either event.

 

[Star Wolf]

Why, if these things are true, The Shield may actually be worth watching. These are not aspects of the show dwelt upon in the rave reviews. The rave reviews gave the impression I described. As I said before, it's a real shame when fans inadvertently make their show or movie sound bad by leaving out the important things.

I can see using reviews to decide whether to try watching a show or not, but to pass some kind of judgment on a show without ever having seen it seems a bit much.

The Shield is about fundamental choices to follow the rules, or break the rules. Mackey and his team make their choice early on, and once they've started down that path they spend the rest of the entire series scrambling to avoid various consequences. Sometimes they get a little breathing room, but never for long. They do some terrible things to keep out of trouble, and end up as some of the most miserable characters I've ever watched on TV. Consequences are always a factor in that series, a huge factor.

--Justin

Missed the bolded part on my initial post. They were on that path long before the series started, it was shown in a flashback episode when homicide detectives Mackey and Shane framed a guilty man. By the time of the pilot they had escalated to murdering a fellow officer. How anyone could have seen the Strike Team as anything but the villains of the story is beyond me.

 

[J.T.B.]

Missed the bolded part on my initial post. They were on that path long before the series started, it was shown in a flashback episode when homicide detectives Mackey and Shane framed a guilty man. By the time of the pilot they had escalated to murdering a fellow officer. How anyone could have seen the Strike Team as anything but the villains of the story is beyond me.

Indeed, by "early on" I did not mean to imply "early in the series." They were clearly bad when the series joined them in the first episode, when getting wind of a serious investigation against them pushed them to new lows.

--Justin

 

[Alidar Jarok]

BTW, I remembered hearing that The Shield had to put their badges on the wrong side or else they could face charges for impersonating police officers every time they filmed an episode outdoors.

 

[Garak]

Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeit The Wire is one of the best damn shows ever made.

 

[stj]

Why, if these things are true, The Shield may actually be worth watching. These are not aspects of the show dwelt upon in the rave reviews. The rave reviews gave the impression I described. As I said before, it's a real shame when fans inadvertently make their show or movie sound bad by leaving out the important things.

I can see using reviews to decide whether to try watching a show or not, but to pass some kind of judgment on a show without ever having seen it seems a bit much.

The Shield is about fundamental choices to follow the rules, or break the rules. Mackey and his team make their choice early on, and once they've started down that path they spend the rest of the entire series scrambling to avoid various consequences. Sometimes they get a little breathing room, but never for long. They do some terrible things to keep out of trouble, and end up as some of the most miserable characters I've ever watched on TV. Consequences are always a factor in that series, a huge factor.

--Justin

Missed the bolded part on my initial post. They were on that path long before the series started, it was shown in a flashback episode when homicide detectives Mackey and Shane framed a guilty man. By the time of the pilot they had escalated to murdering a fellow officer. How anyone could have seen the Strike Team as anything but the villains of the story is beyond me.

I think police don't much care when they frame someone whether he's guilty or not. The idea that cops who care too much, so that they go over some petty legal line to finally get the bad guy strikes me as apologetic horseshit. Cops frame people they don't like, or because it's easier to fake success, or even to protect someone they do like (or take bribes from,) but most of all, I suspect, they frame some random person who gets stitched up for no better reason than they were somehow around to be victimized.

Since I haven't seen The Shield, my judgment is not of the series, but of what the premise. Or at least what it seems to be. I repeat, judging from the rave reviews I saw, and incidental remarks, it appeared to be premised on the notion that effective cops have to be brutal and otherwise break the laws that protect criminals. The publicity for The Shield did not in any way encourage me to think that the show portrayed Mackey and company as villains.

Nor, despite Star Wolf's puzzlement, is there any mystery as to how someone could think Mackey et al. were heroes. It is a common belief that civil rights laws protect criminal, and force majeure (or worse,) is an effective policing strategy. The impression I got from favorable reviews is that the series assumed these ideas as well.

Again, this is my judgment of the premise as I received it from the praise for the series. It's why I couldn't force myself to watch it. I'm not quite sure why people are so excited on the issue. It really is quite peculiar. If I had said, I couldn't be troubled to watch something, True Blood say, because it seemed to be soft core pornography, the proper response would seem to be, "True Blood isn't soft-core porn because it's..."

 

[Star Wolf]

Dexter is about a serial killer, The Sopranos a mob family. 24 a counter-terrorist agent who crosses the line. The Shield happen to about Rafael Perez and his CRASH team. The Wire on the other hand has characters who are not supers but normal Joes. Some become better (real police), some become worse and many in The Game, besides the police, die.

 

[J.T.B.]

Again, this is my judgment of the premise as I received it from the praise for the series. It's why I couldn't force myself to watch it. I'm not quite sure why people are so excited on the issue. It really is quite peculiar. If I had said, I couldn't be troubled to watch something, True Blood say, because it seemed to be soft core pornography, the proper response would seem to be, "True Blood isn't soft-core porn because it's..."

But you didn't say "seemed to be," or anything about fans or reviews, you wrote "The Shield on the other hand was based on the notion that brutal, corrupt cops are the most effective cops."

--Justin

 

[Yassim]

How the show plays in Baltimore is definitely an interesting question, though.

In the following link,
http://www.believermag.com/issues/200708/?read=interview_simon
there's an interview (by Nick Hornby) of David Simon, where he talks about fighting with City Hall about filming permits. He talked to the mayor before starting the show, but a couple of seasons in, the mayor decided he didn't like the show's take. So he gave the show a hard time...

Simon went and explained to the mayor that they could go film somewhere else, and keep making Baltimore look bad, but spend their money elsewhere. The mayor backed off.

The other interesting thing Simon has to say is that most modern TV is based, in form, on the modern novel - Shakespeare or Dickens. Character is tested, character learns/changes. But The Wire is more Greek in its origins - I can see what he means. I'm only partway through season 1, and there are only a few different ways this can end. The social order has its rule, and now everything will play out almost like fate. It's really a question of how many people will get hurt, how badly, and what each character will have to sacrifice to get there. Each character already seems to have their doom spelled out - it's just a question of when.

 

[Goliath]

Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeit The Wire is one of the best damn shows ever made.

 

[Harvey]

It wasn't only The Brother, Omar rapidly achieved that status. Is it true that the show was rewritten after they saw his early performances to add more Omar?

Michael K. Williams tells that story, but David Simon has denied it...

The full interview is here, but it's full of spoilers for those of you who haven't seen the entire series.

 

[The Squire of Gothos]

I enjoyed the first season, but I couldn't keep up when the BBC broadcast it in such a rush. An episode a night, every week day, with barely a break between seasons.

 

[Star Wolf]

That's the best way to watch The Wire

 

[TheGodBen]

I like this show a lot better than The West Wing (what I've seen of the latter); mostly, I guess, because it's far more subtle. I never really feel like the show's taken some time out from the narrative to beat me over the head with how right the showrunner is about policy. And the Carcetti stuff is frequently where the Wire gets to shine in either event.

You're quite right, but it is also one of the most beautifully written tv shows ever made, just listening to those characters speaking relaxes me like a good massage. The show under Aaron Sorkin was very liberally biased and conservatives were often represented badly, but he did try to change that in season 2 when Ainsley Hayes started working at the White House and brought a likeable Republican perspective to the show. Then Sorkin left (secretly, he was probably fired) and John Wells pushed the show to the centre to attract more viewers. Sadly, the quality of the writing nose-dived at that point and it took a year for the show to recover from losing its creative force. But it really picked up again around the time that Alan Alda joined the show as one of the few Republicans that I would actually consider voting for.

How much of it did you watch? Because I have a policy of disregarding the opinions of people that have not seen Two Cathedrals and the arc leading up to it. There is no way I could relate to a person if they do not know just how awesome Dire Straits' music can be.

I think police don't much care when they frame someone whether he's guilty or not. The idea that cops who care too much, so that they go over some petty legal line to finally get the bad guy strikes me as apologetic horseshit.

That's not the way that The Shield did it. Here's some minor spoilers about why Mackey and the rest originally crossed the line:

Spoiler: The Shield season 2: Co-pilot

Mackey wasn't the first choice to lead the Strike Team, he was selected on a temporary basis because he was friends with the Deputy Commissioner. As such, he was under a great deal of stress to resolve his first case quickly, but he couldn't find a way to do it legally, so he planted evidence on a guy that was probably the guilty party so that he could keep his job. Once he and the others realised how easy their job would be if they kept on breaking the rules they decided to continue. Then they decided to make a profit from their work by taking drugs from crime scenes and selling it to drug dealers. Then they decided to try and create their own little drug cartel. That's the point where the pilot kicks off.

I enjoyed the first season, but I couldn't keep up when the BBC broadcast it in such a rush. An episode a night, every week day, with barely a break between seasons.

I can't imagine watching it any other way, if I had watched it one episode a week then I wouldn't have been able to keep track of the show. The bigger problem with the way the BBC aired it was that it started at 23:20, so if anybody had to be up for work the next morning they'd have had to stay up too late. The Wire isn't a show that you should watch when you're tired, there's too much you'll forget the next day.

 

[stj]

Hmm.

"The Shield on the other hand was based on the notion that brutal, corrup cops are the most effective cops. This is extraordinarily stupid on the face of it. To me, it stank of agenda: Cops have to break fiddling laws about civil rights to do their jobs. I could never force myself to watch an episode. Well, some people reject the concept of reality testing entertainment. The Shield didn't sound interesting because it was selling the pleasure in seeing a vicarious hero act out a political agenda (and then sufferes at the end, as a way of denying the implications of the pleasure in his actions.) AT least, that was the overwhelming impression I got."

I added the bold, since I wasn't very clear the first time. Putting the correction at the end, instead of the beginning, or even better, rewriting was obviously confusing. Also obviously, I should proofread more. What are corrup, sufferes, AT? The ministrokes are taking a toll.

Seriously, this thread is the only time I've read anything that made The Shield sound anything different from, say, Gene Hunt on US Life on Mars. What I've read here is different enough from the reviews that I'll have to Netflix some, to find out for myself.

 

[Star Wolf]

Hmm.

"The Shield on the other hand was based on the notion that brutal, corrup cops are the most effective cops. This is extraordinarily stupid on the face of it. To me, it stank of agenda: Cops have to break fiddling laws about civil rights to do their jobs. I could never force myself to watch an episode. Well, some people reject the concept of reality testing entertainment. The Shield didn't sound interesting because it was selling the pleasure in seeing a vicarious hero act out a political agenda (and then sufferes at the end, as a way of denying the implications of the pleasure in his actions.) AT least, that was the overwhelming impression I got."

Wrong, they follow the story of the takedown of the CRASH unit/Strike Team however the most effective cops on the show are the detective team of Claudette and the Dutchman. Or the gay rookie who overcame difficulties through his faith in Christ. Sgt Mackey and team just stay a step faster then the law trying to reign him in by sticking the Strike Team into any "Red Ball" to use Homicide terminology which is happening on The Farm.

 

[stj]

I'm not the only one who got it wrong. Going to Netflix, I find these descriptions. The misleading parts are bolded.

The Shield: Season 1(2002)
Vic Mackey leads the Strike Team unit, a posse of Los Angeles rogue cops with a great track record of fighting crime. Vic calls the shots with the team, but trouble brews when a new captain is assigned to the precinct. The problem? The new captain can't abide by Vic's renegade tactics, and he wants Vic out. The series won an Emmy Award in 2002 for Outstanding Lead Actor in a Drama Series (Chiklis).

The Shield: Season 2(2003)
Emmy award-winning actor Michael Chiklis returns for another season playing Vic Mackey, the leader of a group of rogue members of the Los Angeles Police Department called The Strike Team. The group's crime-fighting skills are certainly effective, but their methods are highly controversial. The group -- investigating murders, drug dealers and gang activity - is willing to try anything to stay alive and put away nefarious criminals.

The Shield: Season 3(2004)
Michael Chiklis reprises his award-winning role as renegade detective Vic Mackey, a cop who heads an elite group called the Strike Team and who lives and works near the edge of reason and protocol. This third season begins with gang warfare causing chaos in the city, forcing the team to abandon its efforts to play by the rules. Vic gets a new supervisor, much to his chagrin, while he navigates the treacherous waters of urban crime.

The Shield: Season 4(2005)
Detective Vic Mackey doesn't do everything by the book. And that's just the way he likes to do his job as leader of the police force's Strike Team. He's an effective cop, too, but his approach doesn't always endear him to higher-ups. With Capt. David Aceveda taking a position on the City Council, Glenn Close joins the cast as Capt. Monica Rawling in the fourth season of FX's hit detective show

The Shield: Season 5(2006)
Detective Vic Mackey has his hands full as he continues to fight the good fight (against assorted scumbags) his way -- which means no rules. But not if Lt. Kavanaugh can help it, who's leading the Internal Affairs investigation into the Strike Team's questionable tactics. Loyalties are tested and the friction implodes in the fifth season of television's hardest-hitting cop drama

The Shield: Season 6(2007)
Former "Commish" star Michael Chiklis heads the cast of this moody cop drama that explores law and order's realities inside the precinct. The show's sixth season takes place in the wake of the intense investigation of the Strike Team by Lt. Jon Kavanaugh (Forest Whitaker) -- a tumultuous time that saw Det. Shane Vendrell murder friend and colleague Det. Curtis "Lemonhead" Lemansky (Kenny Johnson).

The Shield: Season 7(2008)
Michael Chiklis reprises his role as conflicted Strike Team leader Vic Mackey in the seventh and final season of this Emmy-winning FX drama, following the exploits of an experimental Los Angeles police division that works out of a converted church. Although producers were notoriously tight-lipped about how the series would conclude, they were clear on one point: Mackey's story would definitely come to an end.

After the descriptions of seasons one through five, the supposed realities mentioned in the season six description sounded like the tragic need for someone to effectively fight crime by ignoring the laws that protect criminals.

Notice how peculiar the description of the seventh season is. It gives the impression that suddenly the series was treating Mackey differently. The part about how it's the criminals who force the task force to abandon rules is particularly jawdropping. Indeed, calling it abandoning rules, instead of committing crimes, is highly tendentious in itself.

With such misleading reporting about the series, isn't it natural that people who haven't seen it get the wrong impression, then don't watch?
　
　
　

 

[sidious618]

If I'm interested in a television show I read critical reviews all of which are very positive towards The Shield and its very grey world.

 

[Capt. Vulcan]

Spoiler: season 4

It needed Prez in the schools. Alright, it could have just created a new entry point character instead (just as the academic problem to help the kids could have worked without Colvin), but they were clearly moving the characters around to demonstrate plot and theme points. You hit the point about Herc on the head, for example. They wanted to make that point with Herc, so in he went.

Well like I said I watched the show with no spoilers or no prior knowledge that it was going to focus on different things each season. I figured it out, but I accepted it as progress in the show rather than moving the characters around to fit an agenda. It's sort of a chicken and egg thing. Yeah in the real world you can figure they moved these characters to fit the seasonal theme they wanted, but in the story their movement made perfect sense. The subsequent change in focus seemed to follow that. None of the moves seemed particularly contrived or convenient to me because although they entered these new arenas, none of them did anything out of character for themselves or the positions they gained.

Spoiler: the wire

Prez was a fuckup that seemed to deserve to be fired early on but wasnt because of bureaucracy, yet when he finally becomes a decent cop he looses his job because of the same bureaucracy. Colvin did the insane hamsterdam experience so of course he'd get fired. Because of his desire to help the kids it made sense where he ended up It didn't bother me that they both ended up at the same school. In fact I appreciated that Prez ended up as a normal teacher and didn't become part of Colvin's special program even though they were at the same school. McNulty as a boat cop made sense. That's what was warned to him already. He did try to go super-cop, but it was in character that he would do this. He still had the same flaws, and it was really other characters that ended up figuring everything out.

I think it also helped, that while they had themes, most of them had already been explored in previous and subsequent seasons. These areas appeared to exist and we only got closer glimpses at them because our characters ended up being connected to them in some way.

I understand that, yes, they moved these characters to serve the direction the plot was going in, but I didn't see any of them being particularly contrived or out of place. It all seemed to go with the flow of the show. They couldn't very well move the main characters of the show then have nothing happen to them at their new positions could they?

 

[Kegg]

Well like I said I watched the show with no spoilers or no prior knowledge that it was going to focus on different things each season.

I knew vaguely it'd do that, but not the specifics.

Spoiler: the wire

Prez was a fuckup that seemed to deserve to be fired early on but wasnt because of bureaucracy, yet when he finally becomes a decent cop he looses his job because of the same bureaucracy.

Spoiler: Season 4-ish

What? No. Prez fucked up again. The series was pretty consistent about this: When it came to thinking on his feet and dealing with potential hostiles, Prez was a dismal cop. He didn't even call out 'police', he just shot and killed a fellow officer.

That said, it's possible that Prez could have fought this charge. He just plain didn't want to. He's had reservations about being a cop since before the series began - he says at one point he hoped that shooting up his car would get him canned from the service - and it was only really in doing the wiretap and paperwork that he was comfortable with it, or indeed any good.

Prez is by far one of my favourite characters on the show, but he's no saint vitcimized by bureaucracy by any means, and heck, he knows that.

Anyway, just because they give the characters rationales to go somewhere doesn't mean stuff has to go up and happen where they go. Take McNulty, for example: When he goes onto the boat, there's a big seaside crime thing which he's key in moving around. It keeps him in the story and hell for that year it is the principal story. When he moves to a job that doesn't have too much to do with the plot, as he does in S4, though, he's practically invisible. That in itself seems to be a calculated move by the show; letting the series numerous threads propel themselves even without McNulty's plot generating antics to stir crap.

The Wire follows the plot with all the tenacity of Lester following the money and it puts its characters in the way of that plot, good argument for that decision or no.