My problem with Deep Space Nine...

[TiberiusMaximus]

The acting on DS9 overall is tolerable to good, but I've definitely seen better. (Not to knock the show, I love it.) But I've never found Nana Visitor hard to take...to each his own, I guess...I've always found Avery Brooks a lot worse. I mean,

"I...HAVE...alwaysfound.....AVERY. Brooks. To BE alotmore annnnnooyyyying."

Constantly goes up and down in pitch, speaks slow than fast...entertaining, but hard to take after a while.

DevilEyes, you make some good points and I do agree that Kira is a great example of a well written character with flaws and a changing personality, not a static cliche.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I liked Jadzia fine too. My problem with DS9 was Ezri.

A little girl, with thin voice and no personality.

I disagree that Ezri had no personality--she was simply shy, and one might argue, internally traumatized by what had happened to her against her deepest will (she may have been obeying duty, but I don't think she WANTED the symbiont in her heart of hearts). I found I identified tremendously with her and could sympathize very much in a way I never could with Jadzia.

 

[Luther Sloan]

I think the acting was rough overall by all the DS9 cast in the first two seasons. Especially with Avery Brooks. But by the 4th Season: It was pure magic for me and it seemed like a completely different show. The performances, the effects, the production, and the writing was just top notch IMO.

 

[Gul Re'jal]

Joran (in Sisko's body) told Jadzia she was only a "little girl". What would he tell about Ezri??

I understand that people may enjoy Ezri a lot. She was a Dax, but so different from Jadzia. Now everyone could experience the change from one host to another, not only Sisko. These maybe are good arguments, but they don't change the fact she was annoying me. I am not sure if it was more because of the character or the actress, who was chosen for the role. I just didn't like her.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Which, conversely, is my reaction to Jadzia the Klingon Party Girl (TM). She just grates on me and seems like a composite of people in my life that I couldn't stand.

 

[Kegg]

Well, Jadzia did seem to change over time as influenced by Terry Farrell's performance - she was originally written to be a little colder and more science oriented; as opposed to the generally jovial character we eventually got. The writers did definitely drop the ball though; Dax was an excellent concept for a one-line pitch that nobody had the foggiest idea how to bring to reality well.

I liked Jadzia fine too. My problem with DS9 was Ezri.

Oh I liked Ezri. Which can be interpreted to say I liked Nicole DeBoer, if you prefer. They didn't improve much on the Dax concept with the character, but I liked Ezri in her own right.

 

[Deckerd]

They were all playing characters who worked well in ensemble. I mean, it's very difficult to call Jadzia two-dimensional when Worf's the elephant in the room. Don't get me wrong, I love Worf, but in the same way I like Animal from the Muppets. As to the OP, of all the characters in DS9 I thought Kira was the most consistently played. They all developed - hell in a 7 year run if they hadn't developed it would have been the dullest show on Earth - so you can't really single her out from the others in that respect. The only thing that really jarred as far as I'm concerned is the ending of the unrequited love story. That was a mistake, since the tension worked very well but as lovers they were both so unsexy and had zero chemistry it was a big ewwwww.

 

[DevilEyes]

Well, Jadzia did seem to change over time as influenced by Terry Farrell's performance - she was originally written to be a little colder and more science oriented; as opposed to the generally jovial character we eventually got. The writers did definitely drop the ball though; Dax was an excellent concept for a one-line pitch that nobody had the foggiest idea how to bring to reality well.

Well, I liked Jadzia 2.0 much better than the early Jadzia... Now I usually really love colder, science-oriented characters - after all, I'm a a major Vulcan fan who adores Spock and really likes Sarek, T'Pol and Tuvok, as well as Data and Picard - but 1) cold, intellectual characters had been done so many times on Trek (and would be done again - Seven, T'Pol etc.) and 2) it wasn't working for Jadzia - she just didn't have what made those other characters interesting. I just found her dull in the early DS9. The more character we eventually got was far more original and with more personality.

That said, a major missed chance was the relative lack of exploration of the nature of Trills.

I do agree that we should have learned what Jadzia had been like without Dax, learned more about her family and background, etc. They eventually did this to a far greater degree with Ezri, because they felt they had to focus on her difference from Jadzia and on the Trill nature. It's true that in the early seasons, they were just too trilled (no pun intended) with the idea of Dax that they seemed to think it was fun enough in itself (oh look, Sisko knows her as his old mentor, but she's a beautiful young woman!) without bothering to do much to differentiate between Jadzia's core personality and Jadzia Dax... Although we do see some glimpses and ideas of the core Jadzia personality here and there.

But where they actually dropped the ball was the lack of attention to the symbionts themselves - they never even explained in canon if they have personalities of their own (though I believe they do). Every episode about the Trills was about the difference between the various hosts' personalities. But what about Dax itself?

 

[Navaros]

I agree with the OP that Visitor's acting is often quite bad, unconvincing, and cringeworthy: especially when she has to snivel (i.e. Starship Down, Heart of Stone) or flip-out (i.e. Emissary, Wrongs Darker than Death or Night).

Visitor is similar to Brooks in that way: they both are only good actors when they aren't called to act emotional.

Having said that, after Season 2, Visitor's temper tantrums/whining are significantly toned down therefore she becomes much more tolerable in general in Seasons 3-7, whereas she is unwatchable nearly 100% of the time in Seasons 1-2.

As well, as has been mentioned, Farrell is also a very bad actress, and unlike Visitor, Farrell never has any redeeming moments: 100% of Jadzia's screentime is cringeworthy. It doesn't make sense to criticize Visitor for bad acting yet let Farrell off the hook for the same.

 

[SpyOne]

I'm partly with you: It took a while for Kira to grow on me, and part of that was Nana Visitor came off a bit wooden.
However, people tend to blame the actor quite quickly for such things, and it isn't always true. Terry Farrell is an excellent example: I have seen her on an episode of The Cosby Show from well before she did DS9 (She played the young girl that a colleague of Dr. Huxtable was dating now that he was done grieving for his wife, and it turns out the Huxtables are surprised to learn she is old beyond her years and he isn't just having a midlife crisis), and she was quite good. So it was a combination of writing, direction, and maybe not having found the character that led to the way Dax seemed near the beginning.
Similarly, the guy who played Sinclair on Babylon 5 seemed to me to be the worst actor on the show. Later, I saw him in various other things and learned he's actually a good actor. Apparently he was just being told to play Sinclair as if he were a cigar-store indian.

I think that Nana Visitor had some trouble with playing Kira. For whatever reason (writing, actor not finding the character, direction) Kira tended to come off as a hyperagressive bitch. Worse, she often came off as someone trying to seem like a hyperagressive bitch: her reactions often seemed forced. Either Kira felt the need to act like she was even more badass than she was to get any respect, or something went wrong in the portrayal somewhere.

But I got past it. I learned to watch the show for the characters I liked and tolerate the others.

 

[Ensign Johnson]

I've never thought Nana Visitor was a bad actress, Avery Brooks is awful though. Bashir has melodramatic moments but I always figured that was just a doctor thing.

I love Major Kira and actually find her really likeable (I like grumpy women maybe because I am one) plus she's sexy (especially as the Intendant). I find Major Kira's scenes with Dukat especially fun to watch. I always find myself rooting for Kira be it when she was angry with Dukat or clashing with Sisko in the early seasons.

 

[DevilEyes]

I love Major Kira and actually find her really likeable (I like grumpy women maybe because I am one) plus she's sexy (especially as the Intendant).

Heh, I could say the same about me - though I would put it as women with fiery temper rather than grumpy

I find her a lot sexier as Major Kira, though.

 

[Captain Zog]

I liked her. A strong female second-in-command. The series needed a character like her after Troi. She was the first woman to hold a real leadership role in any of the series'.

 

[DeepSpaceWine]

I actually preferred the original Jadzia. "Jadzia 2.0" as she was called in a previous post was too loud, aggressive, and wild. She was like a college sorority girl. Jadzia 1.0 was more subdued, more level-headed, and routinely coy, letting others chase her while not giving anything away. 1.0 was more Yin/subtle while 2.0 was more Yang/overt or loud. The character change didn't really bring anything to the character, it actually took something away.

Now, the behind the scenes reason is they wanted to tack her onto Worf, but I think the unspoken in-story reason was Curzon took her over. Look at Jadzia 2.0 then look at Curzon in Odo in "Facets". Notice how Jadzia 2.0 seems more like Curzon than like Jadzia 1.0. Curzon definately had a dominant personality and it seems once there was a constant Klingon around, his memories of wild romps with the Klingons sort of took over and overwhelmed Jadzia 1.0.

As for Jadzia's character development being kind of bland, I think there are a few reasons for that. They tried to explore Trills a little early, with "Dax" and "Invasive Procedures", but the 1 season they really hit a home run was Season 3, with "Equilibrium" and "Facets", but beyond that (besides "Rejoined"), what Trill/Dax episodes were there in Season 4-6? The other reason is her role. She was a science officer*. Early on, there was use for her, with the crappy generic TNG scripts of S1 (and a few strays like "Rivals") and then the exploration of the Gamma Quadrant (most prominent in S2, but also beyond). By the time the war starts, science is on the backburner and investigation isn't a priority, but... how much investigation did they use her for in Season 5? Last I remember is "The Quickening".


*: It was nice over all the series that they varied the gender up, that there was at least 1 female in each role in one of the series. Engineering... Torres, Chief Medical Officer... Crusher, Captain... Janeway, First Officer... Kira, peripheral fraternizing character (Quark, Neelix)... Guinan, Security Chief... Yar (yeah, not around for long). The only role that seems to have been missed is Ops (Kim, Data, Sulu or Chekhov).


As for Kira, she was abrasive but I never thought her a bad actress (nor an excellent one. She gets the job done, which is fine). I think some people were turned off by her early on by looking and acting like some weird hardcore militant (which she was). With intentionally unlikable characters, it's a balance between what their characteristics bring to the show and being an experiential eyesore/earsore that lowers people's interest in the show. Didn't some people way back in 1993 or so not like Quark?

That said, I don't think Kira was a big factor driving people away in Season 1. I think it was the utter lack of exploration, just leaving the wormhole, the initial draw of the show, idle (no missions to the Gamma Quadrant like in Seasons 2-4. "Captive Pursuits" & "Vortex", "Battle Lines" weren't enough. In fact, CP seems more like a Season 2/3 ep than a Season 1 ep) nor of the space on this far frontier of the Federation and beyond (like Ferenginar, Trill Prime, Cardassia, "Armageddon Game"). It got lame TNG scripts and focused too heavily on the Bajorans (it might of helped if there was a 2nd Bajoran on the major/supporting staff, like a Bajoran nurse that was more than an extra) and lame stories ("The Storyeteller", "Progress", "Past Prologue"). If it had stuff like the 3-part Circle story, "Necessary Evil", "Shakaar", it might have helped sell the Bajorans. Oh, and it didn't have the Cardassians as an active presence like they were in Season 2 onward.

Sisko seems to affect people like Kirk does with the acting style prone to nitpicking or grating someone at some point. But yeah, the producers allowed Sisko to become A Man Called Hawk. Of course, Janeway grates on some people too. Seems only Picard and Archer escaped being grating in some way.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Now, the behind the scenes reason is they wanted to tack her onto Worf, but I think the unspoken in-story reason was Curzon took her over. Look at Jadzia 2.0 then look at Curzon in Odo in "Facets". Notice how Jadzia 2.0 seems more like Curzon than like Jadzia 1.0. Curzon definately had a dominant personality and it seems once there was a constant Klingon around, his memories of wild romps with the Klingons sort of took over and overwhelmed Jadzia 1.0.

AHA!

So I'm not the only one with the "Curzon took over" theory!

I think that's exactly what happened...and I think that Ezri's fears were legitimate, in that light.

 

[DevilEyes]

I think of Jadzia 2.0 as a mix of Jadzia 1.0 and Curzon, since Curzon, from what we've learned about him/seen of him, seems to have been much louder, more flamboyant, more promiscuous, more dominant than Jadzia ever was. Basically, Jadzia 2.0 is a bit like Curzon - his tastes and hobbies, his lust for life - tempered through Dax-less Jadzia. In a way, she is like what would happen if Curzon and Dax-less Jadzia had a child.

And since I find Curzon a lot more interesting than Jadzia 1.0, that's fine with me. Curzon is probably best in small doses, I don't think the show could take the undistilled Curzon for any extended period of time.

Sisko seems to affect people like Kirk does with the acting style prone to nitpicking or grating someone at some point. But yeah, the producers allowed Sisko to become A Man Called Hawk. Of course, Janeway grates on some people too. Seems only Picard and Archer escaped being grating in some way.

Are you serious?! AFAIK, Archer grates on a lot more people than any other captain, and none of the captain actors has been as criticized and dissed as Bakula. I actually grew to really like him, but when I first saw the pilot, I couldn't stand Archer (or Trip, for that matter), it was one of the things that kept me from giving ENT a chance (in addition to that horrible theme song, and the decon scene which I found silly).

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Frankly, I think Nana Visitor is the best female actor in all of Trek. But to each their own. *shrugs*

 

[DevilEyes]

Frankly, I think Nana Visitor is the best female actor in all of Trek. But to each their own. *shrugs*

And I 100% agree.

 

[Kira Nerys]

I think she was great as Kira and came across as real and believeable to the viewers .

 

[GalaxyClass1701]

...is Nana Visitor.

She has to be one of the most horrific actresses I've ever seen on screen. Every time I hear her voice I'm reminded of the episode of Seinfeld where Kramer has seizures when he hears the voice of Mary Hart from Entertainment Tonight.

Absolutely ruins any entertainment value I get from the show.

I think she is great and you should watch Duet again.