World Cup 2010 - South Africa Thread

[Roger Wilco]

Look, do I blame Suarez for cheating? No. He knows the rules and he's probably been taught to stop a sure goal any way he can.

I think it was just a reflex actually and not something he was taught.

Anyway, what the problem here is, is the rules, it would be more fair if the attacking team just got awarded the goal instead of having to rely on a penalty shot here. But should the rules be changed so fundamentally because of a situation that happens so rarely? I would say "no".

 

[firehawk12]

For a game called "football", I don't think anyone sticks their arms out by reflex. If anything, you're probably taught to avoid using your arms in any way to AVOID giving out PKs and red cards.

I think my point is that if you change the rules, the situation wouldn't happen AT ALL.
If that was an automatic goal and a PK, no one would even think of doing it.

 

[Roger Wilco]

A player doesn't think in a situation like that, there's no time to think.

 

[firehawk12]

A player doesn't think in a situation like that, there's no time to think.

I'm sorry, but I really don't buy that. I guess I expect more from people who play sports for a living.

Note the position of the ball.

 

[Geck]

Hoping to catch the Netherlands-Brazil game tonight in reruns, sounds like it was an interesting.

Saw Ghana-Uruguay live....damn. I agree Ghana was cheated out of a spot in the semi-finals. Then my heart broke for Gyan when his first penalty kick hit the crossbar. At least he made his second one to restore some pride, even if they lost overall. Just like Ghana outplayed the US though, I feel they outplayed Uruguay for most of the game (excluding the first 15 minutes or so), and have a lot to be proud of. They're a young team too, hopefully they'll be even stronger come 2014.

I'm running out of teams I want to root for....I'm on Team Netherlands now, I guess.

 

[Count Zero]

I watched the rest of the Ghana game at a party with my mates from women's football and drunk. Everyone ended up supporting Ghana for some reason and it was good fun. Too bad Ghana lost. A real tragedy for Asamoah Gyan. It would have been cool to have an African team in the semis. I think the Netherlands will beat Urugay, though.

I only have one team in the tournament and I hope they win tomorrow (or actually, today, haha).

 

[iguana_tonante]

My money is on Brazil, and Ghana later tonight.

Well, apparently I jinxed the whole round today!

I didn't see any of the games today, beside the last ten minutes of Holland-Brazil. It might as well have finished 4-1 for the Oranges: they wasted a lot of opportunities. I was actually impressed by Holland: discipline, talent and athleticism. They are a force to be reckoned with, that's for sure. I'm just sad for all those pretty Brazilian girls: I was hoping for a lot of ass-giggling in celebration of victory.

From what I've heard, Ghana was pretty epic tonight. I'm disappointed they went out, and in that way. Good for Uruguay, but I was hoping an African team would get to the semi-finals. Talk about historical.

 

[Skywalker]

Ghana should be in the semifinals right now.

I don't care that what Suarez did was technically within "the rules," the referee should have awarded what was clearly going to be a goal. The goalkeeper was nowhere near it, and Suarez clearly broke the rules by using his hand to prevent Ghana from scoring. He was sent off, and deservedly so, but then instead of giving Ghana the goal they'd already earned, they're forced to kick a penalty kick which isn't guaranteed to be converted? That may have technically been the correct call under the rules, but that doesn't make it right. Uruguay won cleanly in the penalty kicks, but the match should have never gotten that far. It should have been over after Ghana's goal.

I hope FIFA will do something about this little loophole after the tournament, but I doubt they will. With any luck, Uruguay will lose to the Netherlands. It'll be an absolute mockery of sportsmanship and fair play if they even reach the final, much less win.

 

[Iasius]

What Suarez did was obviously not within the rules, or he wouldn't have been sent off.

A penalty kick is also not a bad chance to score goal. On average about three quarters get in.

That said, I would be fine with a change to red card + goal awarded in cases where a goal would have otherwise happened. These cases are a bit more than just a 'goalscoring opportunity'.

 

[Orac Zen]

Very disappointed with the results of both overnight (my time) matches. Hopefully the next two will work out better.

 

[Skywalker]

What Suarez did was obviously not within the rules, or he wouldn't have been sent off.

Heh, right. I meant the way the referee handled the situation was technically the correct way to do it according to the rules. Suarez used a loophole in the rules to cheat his team to victory.

That said, I would be fine with a change to red card + goal awarded in cases where a goal would have otherwise happened. These cases are a bit more than just a 'goalscoring opportunity'.

I agree. In cases where it's far less conspicuous, a red card + penalty kick would be understandable, but in cases like Suarez's when it's obvious interference with a clear goal, I think that would be the fairest way to deal with it.

 

[StolenThunder]

I agree. In cases where it's far less conspicuous, a red card + penalty kick would be understandable, but in cases like Suarez's when it's obvious interference with a clear goal, I think that would be the fairest way to deal with it.

That's a substantial judgement call, however. Tim Cahill's red in the Australia/Ghana match for example. I seem to remember that appearing to have little intent.

I don't really have too much of a problem with it. Suarez was sent off - they were missing one of their best players for the shoot-out and are for the next game.

 

[Skywalker]

I agree. In cases where it's far less conspicuous, a red card + penalty kick would be understandable, but in cases like Suarez's when it's obvious interference with a clear goal, I think that would be the fairest way to deal with it.

That's a substantial judgement call, however. Tim Cahill's red in the Australia/Ghana match for example. I seem to remember that appearing to have little intent.

How is it a substantial judgment call? It was obvious that Suarez intentionally threw his hand up to block the ball--heck, that other Uruguayan player next to him was trying to hit it, too! That wasn't a reflexive action; if he'd thrown his arm up to protect his face, that would be one thing, but he actually swiped at the ball.

It's like in basketball. If a player shoots the ball and an opposing player interferes with the ball before it touches the rim, that's called goaltending, and the other team is awarded two points for a basket. If any football player who isn't the keeper clearly and indisputably uses his hands to intentionally block what would have been a clear goal, the other team should be awarded that goal.

 

[StolenThunder]

I agree. In cases where it's far less conspicuous, a red card + penalty kick would be understandable, but in cases like Suarez's when it's obvious interference with a clear goal, I think that would be the fairest way to deal with it.

That's a substantial judgement call, however. Tim Cahill's red in the Australia/Ghana match for example. I seem to remember that appearing to have little intent.

How is it a substantial judgment call? It was obvious that Suarez intentionally threw his hand up to block the ball--heck, that other Uruguayan player next to him was trying to hit it, too! That wasn't a reflexive action; if he'd thrown his arm up to protect his face, that would be one thing, but he actually swiped at the ball.

It's like in basketball. If a player shoots the ball and an opposing player interferes with the ball before it touches the rim, that's called goaltending, and the other team is awarded two points for a basket. If any football player who isn't the keeper clearly and indisputably uses his hands to intentionally block what would have been a clear goal, the other team should be awarded that goal.

I just mean the boundary between conspicuous and not as the basis of awarding a goal.

The basketball analogy doesn't entirely work (coming from someone who follows basketball as my first sport) if only because a made FG has a much smaller percentage impact on the overall score, and the intent in goaltending is 9 times out of 10 absolutely clear. The debate only arises on whether the ball has reached its downward trajectory.

If anything I would agree with the red card penalty being increased to two games - it certainly was 'cynical' on Suarez's part - but I don't think goals should be awarded for shots that didn't make the net.

 

[Skywalker]

That's a substantial judgement call, however. Tim Cahill's red in the Australia/Ghana match for example. I seem to remember that appearing to have little intent.

How is it a substantial judgment call? It was obvious that Suarez intentionally threw his hand up to block the ball--heck, that other Uruguayan player next to him was trying to hit it, too! That wasn't a reflexive action; if he'd thrown his arm up to protect his face, that would be one thing, but he actually swiped at the ball.

It's like in basketball. If a player shoots the ball and an opposing player interferes with the ball before it touches the rim, that's called goaltending, and the other team is awarded two points for a basket. If any football player who isn't the keeper clearly and indisputably uses his hands to intentionally block what would have been a clear goal, the other team should be awarded that goal.

I just mean the boundary between conspicuous and not as the basis of awarding a goal.

::nod:: I do agree that if the intent is not so obvious, then just awarding the penalty kick would be fair.

The basketball analogy doesn't entirely work (coming from someone who follows basketball as my first sport) if only because a made FG has a much smaller percentage impact on the overall score, and the intent in goaltending is 9 times out of 10 absolutely clear. The debate only arises on whether the ball has reached its downward trajectory.

True, but it was the only analogy I could come up with at the moment (sorry, it's 4 AM over here ).

If anything I would agree with the red card penalty being increased to two games - it certainly was 'cynical' on Suarez's part - but I don't think goals should be awarded for shots that didn't make the net.

I think they should be awarded for shots that obviously would have made the net if not for obvious and flagrant interference, but increasing the red card penalty to two games would be a fair punishment--assuming the player's team manages to make it to that second game.

 

[Roger Wilco]

I just mean the boundary between conspicuous and not as the basis of awarding a goal.

Yes, I think the rules are sufficient, there's no need to overcomplicate things. Part of football's appeal is, that it's such a simple game and I'm really not that comfortable with giving more power to the referees either. This was a very, very unsual situtation; normally the red card is enough of a disadvantage to make such a move not worthwhile.

and btw.: if Ghana scores with that penalty kick, or wins the penalty shoot-out, Suarez's hands would be nothing more than a footnote...

It was unfortunate for Ghana, and you can be angry about that as much as you want, but FIFa really shouldn't overreact imo.

 

[Iasius]

::nod:: I do agree that if the intent is not so obvious, then just awarding the penalty kick would be fair.

If there's no intent, it's not even a foul.

 

[Defcon]

If anything I would agree with the red card penalty being increased to two games

I doubt Suarez will be banned for only one game. My guess is that he will be banned for at least the rest of the WC.

 

[Skywalker]

::nod:: I do agree that if the intent is not so obvious, then just awarding the penalty kick would be fair.

If there's no intent, it's not even a foul.

Well, there you go, then.

Like I said, 4 AM. Sorry, guys.

 

[StolenThunder]

Oh, it was a fair analogy to bring up I think. There aren't many major sports where similar can occur.