Would you have stopped watching VOY if...

[exodus]

Um, the issue is not about if you WANT to see someone in a bedroom scene or not... it's about whether it irks you so much that you would actually stop watching a show for it.

That's still want.
They turn it off because they didn't WANT to see it.

LOL If you turn off the channel every time you see a scene/moment you don't "want" to see (i.e. that won't make you drool), I don't know how you can get through any programme... It would certainly make it impossible to get through any news programme. I suppose the only people who watch crime and cop shows are those who get a kick out of watching dead bodies and crime scenes, everyone else is probably turning off their TVs in disgust.

The only occasion where quitting the show for this reason makes sense is if you're watching porn, which is made with the specific purpose of turning the viewers on. It doesn't turn you on - it fails - you turn it off. Other programmes aren't made for that primary purpose, and if you're watching a show like VOY only to get a glimpse of Seven's boobs and can't stand anything that you don't find 'sexy', you're wasting your time, since you can get actual porn and watch naked young women with big boobs all the time, instead of having to sit through a bunch of other stuff that's not related to sex at all and a bunch of other people you don't find attractive.

If folks didn't WANT to see any of the other stuff you mentioned, they had every right to turn it off then too.

LOL, you're not seriously trying to make this about human rights. As if someone is denying your imaginary childish viewers their right to turn off the TV.

As a matter of fact, many Trek fans turned away from Voy. due to the fact they didn't like it and didn't WANT to watch it anymore. They weren't getting what they WANTED from it.
Not a single one of us is being forced to watch anything we choose not too.
The power of free will.

Exactly. They turned away because VOY wasn't fulfilling their (rational) expectations. I'm pretty sure that most people's reasons for turning away from a show is because they dislike certains storylines, characterizations, etc., not because they saw an actor they didn't find attractive in a bedroom scene for a couple of minutes. They may be upset enough to quit if they disapprove of the storyline in question, but not because they're oh so grossed out by the actor's bare skin. I know plenty of people who started disliking BSG because of the love quandrangle; I haven't heard of anyone quitting it because they didn't like the sight of Adama's naked chest.

Really, the viewer you are describing sounds like someone incredibly immature and silly. "Oh noes! I want to see the hot chick with the big boobies get her clothes off! That's what I'm watching this stupid show for! I don't want to see the chick that looks like my mom in bed with some dude! I'll never watch this show again! My mom does not do that! NOOOOOOOO! She doesn't! (heads on ears) La-la-la..." I really don't believe that they are many viewers like that. Do you know any?

I can see why you feel that way if you only view things in such a limited capacity.
All I read here is: because I don't think it so, it must be true for all.
I guess that's why nuBSG is your only defence, while Trek is constantly getting beat out by shows from "I Dream of Jennie" to "Xena" to "Desperate Housewives". All top shows due to their sexual appeal. All of them pulling in bigger audiences than Trek ever has.
I guess childish viewers aren't imaginary after all.

 

[DevilEyes]

I guess I have a higher opinion of the human race than you do, since I don't think that viewers who are childish to such a ridiculous degree are that numerous that anyone would specifically have to be worried about not alienating them, for fear of significant ratings drop. You seem to believe that they are a majority, or at least a major portion of the audience.

 

[exodus]

I guess I have a higher opinion of the human race than you do, since I don't think that viewers who are childish to such a ridiculous degree are that numerous that anyone would specifically have to be worried about not alienating them, for fear of significant ratings drop. You seem to believe that they are a majority, or at least a major portion of the audience.

Most of the higher rated shows with way larger audiences than Trek prove it.
It's not about having any higher opinion of people, it's about being realistic.
It's about knowing the business ecomomics of TV.
If the folks behind Voyager wwere worried about alienating a small part of the audience, they would have kept Kes. They didn't because they were thinking globally. They wanted something that would capture an audience that the cast they already had wasn't. They put Janeway in a sexy nighty in "The Q & The Grey" and nobody cared. They were testing the waters with Janeway and her sex appeal and it didn't work.
Even on this very board "The Q & the Grey", "Fair Haven" & "Workforce", all the eps. Janeway got sexy are the least talked about. They aren't even in anybodies top favorites, if even for that reason.

 

[TheGodBen]

If the folks behind Voyager wwere worried about alienating a small part of the audience, they would have kept Kes. They didn't because they were thinking globally. They wanted something that would capture an audience that the cast they already had wasn't. They put Janeway in a sexy nighty in "The Q & The Grey" and nobody cared. They were testing the waters with Janeway and her sex appeal and it didn't work.

You're making the mistake of mixing up active not wanting with passive not wanting. Just because someone doesn't want a thing doesn't mean that seeing it will put them off. I mean, I didn't have any particular desire to see B'Elanna and Tom paired up, but when the show decided to do that I didn't consider it a bad thing, and I ultimately came to enjoy that relationship in the final season.

Even on this very board "The Q & the Grey", "Fair Haven" & "Workforce", all the eps. Janeway got sexy are the least talked about. They aren't even in anybodies top favorites, if even for that reason.

The Q and the Grey's problems stem from the way the Q were treated, not because Janeway was in a nightie. Fairhaven is bad because it's culturally insensitive at best, borderline racist at worst. Workforce is... hell, I liked Workforce Part 1, I felt the second part was a step down because it focused on the police investigation too much.

You've also conveniently forgotten about Janeway in the bath in Resolutions, the episode that launched a thousand erotic fan-fics.

 

[exodus]

You're making the mistake of mixing up active not wanting with passive not wanting. Just because someone doesn't want a thing doesn't mean that seeing it will put them off. I mean, I didn't have any particular desire to see B'Elanna and Tom paired up, but when the show decided to do that I didn't consider it a bad thing, and I ultimately came to enjoy that relationship in the final season.

No, I was under the impression that we're all different and what might be ok for you might not be ok for others.

Notice the word "fan"-fic.
There is a whole world of an audience besides ourselves.
This is what I'm trying to get across.

 

[DevilEyes]

If the folks behind Voyager wwere worried about alienating a small part of the audience, they would have kept Kes. They didn't because they were thinking globally. They wanted something that would capture an audience that the cast they already had wasn't. They put Janeway in a sexy nighty in "The Q & The Grey" and nobody cared. They were testing the waters with Janeway and her sex appeal and it didn't work.

You're making the mistake of mixing up active not wanting with passive not wanting. Just because someone doesn't want a thing doesn't mean that seeing it will put them off. I mean, I didn't have any particular desire to see B'Elanna and Tom paired up, but when the show decided to do that I didn't consider it a bad thing, and I ultimately came to enjoy that relationship in the final season.

Exactly.

No, I was under the impression that we're all different and what might be ok for you might not be ok for others.

Notice the word "fan"-fic.
There is a whole world of an audience besides ourselves.
This is what I'm trying to get across.

So why are you arguing that some portions of the audience are more important than the others? Some people want to see Janeway in a love scene; some are against it; most don't particularly care either way and their reaction would depend on how the show would do it, but they probably wouldn't have strong feelings over it. So why is only the second portion worth paying attention to, and deserves to have their views generalized as the views of the audience in general?

I guess I have a higher opinion of the human race than you do, since I don't think that viewers who are childish to such a ridiculous degree are that numerous that anyone would specifically have to be worried about not alienating them, for fear of significant ratings drop. You seem to believe that they are a majority, or at least a major portion of the audience.

Most of the higher rated shows with way larger audiences than Trek prove it.
It's not about having any higher opinion of people, it's about being realistic.
It's about knowing the business ecomomics of TV.
ren't even in anybodies top favorites, if even for that reason.

A Star Trek show is never going to lure in the Baywatch audience, whoever they put in a catsuit. So why would anyone who knows a thing about business economics of TV use the Baywatch audience as the model of VOY (or any Trek's) target audience?

What were VOY's highest ratings? As far as I'm aware, they never reached that mainstream audience you mention, despite Seven in a catsuit.

 

[exodus]

So why are you arguing that some portions of the audience are more important than the others? Some people want to see Janeway in a love scene; some are against it; most don't particularly care either way and their reaction would depend on how the show would do it, but they probably wouldn't have strong feelings over it. So why is only the second portion worth paying attention to, and deserves to have their views generalized as the views of the audience in general?

..because this entire debate started over demographics, economics and how the industry works due to it. At least that's what my arguement was based upon.

I work for the company that owned "Baywatch".
Baywatch was a HUGE international hit that made us LOTS of money.
Trek as it was wasn't grabbing the large audience and Paramount/Viacom believed that Trek could be as big of a merchendising hit as Star Wars & Baywatch. They figured if folks will watch a show about nothing like Baywatch, then a smarter show with a sex symbol will pull in more of an audience.
Paramount wanted Voyager to be as big as the film J.J abrams gave us was.
They wanted to take Trek from just watched by Trek fans back to what TNG was, watched by nearly everybody. That audience was now watching Xena & Baywatch and Pam & Lucy were making the covers of magazines as sexy symbols. Paramount figured if they could do it, why can't Trek?
Trek had to compete to survive on what was a major network.
Something Treks never done since TOS.

 

[KukalakÄ…]

I don't really have a problem with the idea of Janeway getting some, either in physical form or in the Holodeck.

We've already had to imagine 1701-D's civilian cleaners fixing up after Riker's jazz club simulation, so it can't get much worse.

 

[tau136]

Post Coital cameo fine — Post Coital insightful chat not . . . too soapy

 

[JanewayRulz!]

Post Coital insightful chat

Well, for those of us who thought she was tracing Chakotay's tattoo on the left side of Jaffen's forehead... it was "quite" insightful.

 

[vas2009]

I almost stopped watching cuz Janeway wasn't getting any... I was more fusterated then she was and THAT was annoying. This is why I did like Fair Haven because the issue was brought up (sort of).

 

[Galekarens]

Someone is doing a sci-fi web vid series and is interviewing Kate M. I just saw an exerpt and she's going on about how she told the producers in the first place KJ couldn't have sex. Well, as much as I respect and admire KM have always thought she was a little "old fashioned" in her female/male opinions. Maybe if there is another Trek series (hopefully not retro like Enterprise was) the women (and maybe another woman captain in some capacity) will be more 25th centuryish in their outlook on sexuality (altho I guess much of the viewing public might still be 19th century, lol). Am not expecting a lot of bed-hopping or explicitness and would like actions to be "healthy", but don't need to see female leaders be like nuns or "virgin queens." We are talking about the future, ya know, methinks.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

I posted a link to that earlier in this thread.

Kate Mulgrew is a self-proclaimed conservative when it comes to matters of the heart and relationships in general. She often says she's an Irish Catholic woman who enjoys catering the needs and wants of her husband. When Kate is in love, it's one of those all-or-none things. Listen to her talk about her husband to this very day, and it's like she just met the man. You can easily tell that Kate is a very artsy (in the bohemian sense) kind of person with an odd dichotomy of traditional Irish Catholic views.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that.

I am saying that she attack Janeway with that mindset.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

Okay, I found the interview I was thinking about when I posted the above. kimc, I hope you don't blast me for the double post...

Mulgrew, who enjoyed her first success as Mary Ryan — a role for which she is still recognized — on the soap opera "Ryan's Hope," has a standout scene in "Throw Momma From the Train" in which her successful novelist character appears on "The Oprah Winfrey Show" and badmouths her estranged spouse (Crystal). The actress enjoyed the scene but admitted she'll probably never be a guest on either Winfrey's program or '"Donahue" because of her traditional pro-family/pro-male views.

"I love men, and I get a little tired and bored with women who are in their early middle age and are still angry at men," Mulgrew said between puffs of a cigarette. "I mean, what are they so angry about? They're angry because they're not men. The glory of the world is that we can love one another."

"I think that Oprah Winfrey and Phil Donahue love that (friction between the sexes). They say, 'Let's get the anger out of this woman'. It's always so vulgar what these women are undergoing, like: 'Her husband has abused her for 40 years, and she's here to tell you how she threw acid at him one night.' And she's sitting there sobbing for everyone in the world to see it. Who cares?

"Oprah is never going to have Mother Teresa on her program, you can bet your bottom dollar on that. She would be a little too slow for Oprah."

That is from the Doylestown Daily Intelligencer somewhere around the start of 1988.

(Yeah... vast Kate knowledge. I wonder what college knowledge I had to get rid of to keep these little tidbits in my head?)

 

[Gorf]

Someone is doing a sci-fi web vid series and is interviewing Kate M. I just saw an exerpt and she's going on about how she told the producers in the first place KJ couldn't have sex. Well, as much as I respect and admire KM have always thought she was a little "old fashioned" in her female/male opinions.

I haven't posted in awhile, but I think I saw the same interview today and I think the keyword here is 'demographics'. In this interview she states that she put her foot down about Janeway not having sex because the male demographics would confuse her ability to command with her ability to be a mother, and she just might be right if you consider the preferred demographics, but who's to say the preferred demographics actually makes up the majority of people who enjoyed and continues to enjoy and appreciate Voyager.

I think TPTB missed the boat about Voyager, I think they missed the fact that just maybe the majority of Voyager fans are female and therefore NOT the preferred demographic.

Maybe she was right regarding the preferred demographic, but maybe she was wrong if you consider the actual demographic for Voyager - women.

 

[Brit]

I think TPTB missed the boat about Voyager, I think they missed the fact that just maybe the majority of Voyager fans are female and therefore NOT the preferred demographic.

Maybe she was right regarding the preferred demographic, but maybe she was wrong if you consider the actual demographic for Voyager - women.

Exactly.

Demographics are based on who the advertisers think will have the most purchasing power, and who they think they can influence to use that purchasing power. They believe they can influence adolence boys the most. I think that the demographic they wanted was the teenage boy, I also think the demographic that all of Trek got was more female than anyone wanted to believe. They believed women didn't read science fiction and didn't watch science fiction shows because science fiction was like math and just too hard.

Brit

 

[exodus]

I think TPTB missed the boat about Voyager, I think they missed the fact that just maybe the majority of Voyager fans are female and therefore NOT the preferred demographic.

Maybe she was right regarding the preferred demographic, but maybe she was wrong if you consider the actual demographic for Voyager - women.

Exactly.

Demographics are based on who the advertisers think will have the most purchasing power, and who they think they can influence to use that purchasing power. They believe they can influence adolence boys the most. I think that the demographic they wanted was the teenage boy, I also think the demographic that all of Trek got was more female than anyone wanted to believe. They believed women didn't read science fiction and didn't watch science fiction shows because science fiction was like math and just too hard.

Brit

Really?

From my experence "immature" is the word I hear most women using in regards to sci-fi. I mostly hear that sci-fi isn't too hard for them to figure out but rather not complex enough for women. I feel that sci-fi such as "Batman Begins" or maybe nuBSG are such modern hits is because the public is discovering that sci-fi can be serious and complex. Seriously, are there any women writing for Trek? How many women sci-fi writers are there compared to men? When they sit down at the soapbox to write stories, who's there to represent the female demographic or POV? The demographic is how it is because not enough women are taking an active role in creating sci-fi. I think for years the public viewed that Star Wars and sci-fi w/ more action, aliens and robots were the sci-fi standard. So I think many women tuned out sci-fi. I think studios are now gearing shows for both. So I think Paramount knew Voyager had a big female audience, they added Seven to get your boyfriend get back into Trek too. Thus grabbing their demographic and adding you the new female demographic too. Still, many are expecting a mostly male staff to understand the needs of it's female audience. The majority of the demographic isn't going to truly consider much of the female audience until women start taking a more active role in the creation and writing of it. They went after the male audience demographic again because it's what they understand.

 

[Luther Sloan]

Kirk is in no way a man whore and is simply cool if he sleeps with half of the galaxy.

But if Janeway tried to do the same thing, she would been labeled as... The tramp of the Delta Quadrant.

Then again, it would have depended on how they handled it of course, too. So who knows.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Now living in the assend of reality like I do wondering what words like "civilization" mean, hardly the Venice of the southern hemisphere... The network in charge of playing Star Trek looked at the figures and said "bugger this" because Star Trek just wasn't making them enough money... And Buffy Doubly so which just stopped dead half way through season three.

It got tot he point that the VHS releases were three years ahead of the last Trek they'd played on television before the drought finally broke over that bollocks... Broken bow aired on TV here before Endgame.

Can you imagine waiting three years to see something freely rentable for 4 dollars down at your rental store?

(Of course, the VHS releases weren't so quick, that I didn't find myself buying novelizations of episodes like Flashback just to see what the big deal was about.)

The sales on Voyager Videos down here tabulated up by the TPTB's bean counters must have seemed insane and upside down.

 

[Brit]

I think TPTB missed the boat about Voyager, I think they missed the fact that just maybe the majority of Voyager fans are female and therefore NOT the preferred demographic.

Maybe she was right regarding the preferred demographic, but maybe she was wrong if you consider the actual demographic for Voyager - women.

Exactly.

Demographics are based on who the advertisers think will have the most purchasing power, and who they think they can influence to use that purchasing power. They believe they can influence adolence boys the most. I think that the demographic they wanted was the teenage boy, I also think the demographic that all of Trek got was more female than anyone wanted to believe. They believed women didn't read science fiction and didn't watch science fiction shows because science fiction was like math and just too hard.

Brit

Really?

From my experence "immature" is the word I hear most women using in regards to sci-fi. I mostly hear that sci-fi isn't too hard for them to figure out but rather not complex enough for women. I feel that sci-fi such as "Batman Begins" or maybe nuBSG are such modern hits is because the public is discovering that sci-fi can be serious and complex. Seriously, are there any women writing for Trek? How many women sci-fi writers are there compared to men? When they sit down at the soapbox to write stories, who's there to represent the female demographic or POV? The demographic is how it is because not enough women are taking an active role in creating sci-fi. I think for years the public viewed that Star Wars and sci-fi w/ more action, aliens and robots were the sci-fi standard. So I think many women tuned out sci-fi. I think studios are now gearing shows for both. So I think Paramount knew Voyager had a big female audience, they added Seven to get your boyfriend get back into Trek too. Thus grabbing their demographic and adding you the new female demographic too. Still, many are expecting a mostly male staff to understand the needs of it's female audience. The majority of the demographic isn't going to truly consider much of the female audience until women start taking a more active role in the creation and writing of it. They went after the male audience demographic again because it's what they understand.

And Women cannot take more part in the creation of Science Fiction until they are allowed to. The major publishing world is of the opinion that women don’t read science fiction so they don’t publish the kinds of science fiction that women would read, the kinds of science fiction that women would not find immature. This is why female science fiction and science fiction romance writers and readers are banding together, why they are creating blogs like “Alien Romance” with Jacqueline Lichtenberg (and if you don’t know who she is you better study your Trek history) the “Galaxy Express”, and the latest “SFR Brigade.” And finally if women were not interested in reading and writing Science Fiction and Star Trek fiction in particular then why is about 90% of all fan fiction written and read by women.

Guys you didn’t show or print what we wanted to see or read, so we did it ourselves, lots of us. Women like Jacqueline Lichtenberg, Linnea Sinclair, Susan Grant, and Ann Aguirre, women who do write Science Fiction. You stated the case as clearly as anyone could and was blind to the answer, ask it again.


Just why are there so few Science Fiction books written by women? Just why did the early female writers have first names that could be male like Leigh Beckett or like C. L . Moore, use only their initials.

You know why your women friends find Science Fiction immature, well it’s because it’s primarily written for 15 year old boys, of course they are going to find it immature. Women went to “Avatar” in the millions and loved it, women love Star Trek too, the audience is there and it is a huge one.

They went after the male audience demographic again because it's what they understand.

And if true (and yes I do think it is true), that is the discrimination in a nutshell. Knowing it had a female audience and then catering to the male is the best description of gender bias that I know.

Brit