Would you have stopped watching VOY if...

[Brit]

Well, I think I agree with teya for once. We are only told that he was never the same again. Never the same means just that, it can be a good thing or a bad thing we are not told this, we only see Chakotay's grave which has no mention of a wife at all, something unusual for this age but maybe not for another. Who knows, one thing is obvious, Admiral Janeway wasn't the same.

Brit

 

[JanewayRulz!]

So maybe I mated for life but, I just can't relate to the idea that once a partner dies, the other is so bereft his or her life is over. It just doesn't mesh with the real-life widows and widowers......

....... "he was never the same again" to be so much romantic melodrama.

Of course its romantic melodrama.

We... no, that's too pretentious.

I watch Star Trek for its melodrama, for its ethical dliemmas, for its love stories, for its action, and for its angst.

Chakotay's purported "never the same" psyche after Seven's death doesn't mean you are cold hearted, or that your real life widowed/widower friends are cold hearted. It means Chak had reached the end of the road. I see him the equivalent of Chief Tyrell at the end of Battlestar...

Okay

I

don't

know

how to do that spoiler thing so if you haven't see the end of BSG, STOP .

Okay?

He couldn't take it anymore either, the lies of his former lover, the realization that his former lover killed his wife to save herself. So... at the end of BSG, Chief Tyrell just left the Humans and the Cylons and walked away forever. Did he off himself, or did he find a little hilltop on which to build a new home, like Adama did until they both died?

Its hard to compare "real life" to space faring civilizations running for their lives for 4 long (BSG) or 23 long (Voyager) years.

Its hard to compare yourself to a 30 something man who has lost his Father and his homeland to a Cardassian war. A man who left his career to take up arms against both his Father's killers and the Fleet he once proudly served. A man who when he was 40something then was pulled away from that war and dropped into the hind end of space where over nearly 7 years he was betrayed by 2 "friends" and discovered 1 serial killer among his crew. He fought aliens, scarce resources, and a stubborn Captain. He fell in love and forgot about it, fell "in like" several times but left them behind, and he worked every day with a fascinating woman who would "only" allow therself to have a good friend.

How old was he when he and Seven got together? 48? 49?

If he found "peace" working on Voyager with Janeway, what a bolt from the blue to find love at that stage of life on a ship with fewer and fewer opportunities. To find it, to develop it, to lose it. All in the "space" of 3 years.

Seven's dead and so Voyager has been in the Delta Quadrant for 10 years. It will take another 13 years before they get home.

Nothing in my real life can compare to Chakotay's REEL life, but I remember one really bad year when whatever could go wrong seemed to BE going wrong. Someone asked how I was doing and I picked up my hand to pinch two fingers together tightly as I told them "I feel like I'm down to that last straw that broke the camel's back, and if I don't hold onto it tightly it will drop onto my load and break my back."

Maybe Teya, it wasn't his "heart" that broke. Maybe it was just his "back". Chakotay did "his job" like any good soldier. He got his people home. Then he walked away until he died.

By the way, its okay that we don't agree. I just try to stand up to defend the writers when I do agree with their plotlines/rationalizations.

Oh AND by the way #2... I STILL think the C/7 relationship was a bonehead play that should have been left on the drawing board... but if we play the game that what's filmed is canon and what's not is not... then I'm STUCK with it.

Until a fanfic finds a "rational" way to unravel it.

 

[Brit]

Until a fanfic finds a "rational" way to unravel it.

I wrote a angsty one where the reason Chakotay was never the same was because HE had been the one responsible for Seven's death. Like I said "never the same again," can mean an awful lot of things.

Brit

 

[KiraDax]

I don't see the issue with a mature woman/starship captain being shown in a sex scene at all, so no, I wouldn't have stopped watching. Actually, all things considered, I probably would have stood and cheered her on.

I was always disappointed with the way Workforce ended for Janeway. It was so close to end of show and she and Jaffen had so much chemistry, it's a pity he couldn't have been worked in for the rest of the episodes. Poor woman deserved her long-delayed happiness.

I assume Paramount kept it short and bittersweet so as to not run over certain fan toes.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

Again, that was mostly on Kate refusing to do sex scenes.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

Until a fanfic finds a "rational" way to unravel it.

I wrote a angsty one where the reason Chakotay was never the same was because HE had been the one responsible for Seven's death. Like I said "never the same again," can mean an awful lot of things.

Brit

As I was trying to come up with "why" Janeway was so stressed after Seven's death, I realized it was equally possible that Chak sent Seven on that mission.

Do you still have that story online somewhere?

 

[JanewayRulz!]

Kira Dax wrote...

I was always disappointed with the way Workforce ended for Janeway. It was so close to end of show and she and Jaffen had so much chemistry, it's a pity he couldn't have been worked in for the rest of the episodes. Poor woman deserved her long-delayed happiness.

I assume Paramount kept it short and bittersweet so as to not run over certain fan toes.

Again, that was mostly on Kate refusing to do sex scenes.

I don't think Kate refused to do "sex scenes". I think Kate refused to allow her character to be involved in a relationship while Captain of that ship. And I don't believe it was for the clerical abstinance theory, that she couldn't focus on her work if she had a partner to "distract" her. I think it was for the Queen Victoria/Prince Albert theory.

Re: QA & PA: (borrowed gratefully from Victorian Station.)

Barely eighteen, she refused any further influence from her domineering mother and ruled in her own stead. Popular respect for the Crown was at a low point at her coronation, but the modest and straightforward young Queen won the hearts of her subjects. She wished to be informed of political matters, although she had no direct input in policy decisions....She respected and worked well with Lord Melbourne (Prime Minister in the early years of her reign) and England grew both socially and economically.

On Feb 10th, 1840, only three years after taking the throne, Victoria took her first vow and married her cousin, Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. Their relationship was one of great love and admiration....

Prince Albert replaced Melbourne as the dominant male influence in Victoria's life. She was thoroughly devoted to him, and completely submitted to his will. Victoria did nothing without her husband's approval. Albert assisted in her royal duties. He introduced a strict decorum in court and made a point of straitlaced behavior. Albert also gave a more conservative tinge to Victoria’s politics.

...Albert died from typhoid fever at Windsor Castle. Victoria remained in self-imposed seclusion for ten years. This genuine, but obsessive mourning kept her occupied for the rest of her life and played an important role in the evolution of what would become the Victorian mentality.

There is a strong tendency/bias/whatever in modern society to always suspect that the female "ruler" is being manipulated somehow by her male consort. Heck even in the 21st century it happens. I recall people asking what influence Sarah Palin's husband had over her when she was first picked to be McCain's Vice Presidential running mate in 2008.

When I listen to Kate talk about not wanting Janeway involved in a sexual relationship, she always talks about what would it "look like" to that adolescent boy demographic if she was calling Chakotay to the ready room to "drop trou", but I don't really think it was about "sex" as much as it was about "power".

In fact, if those two (drat) had gotten together ON the Voyager, it could have disempowered them both.

It could have dissed Janeway because of the demographic that believed her successes were because she was being coached in the bedchamber on how to run the ship.

It could have disempowered Chakotay even more in the minds of those who feel he was too "passive" with his Captain. Standing up to her only in Equinox II when he stopped her from killing Lessing by proxy.

In my logic, that was why there could only be flirting/ dinners together/ holoprograms together on Voyager. The command structure, in Janeway's mind and in Kate Mulgrew's mind couldn't allow anything else.

That's why, in my grey colored glasses, Janeway looked so long and sadly at Chakotay before they beamed back to Voyager from New Earth. She knew, and he knew, that whatever relationship they had on New Earth could not follow them back to the ship.

Oh, and Kira... speaking for at least one FERVENT J/Cer... I would have deferred my J/C bias to J/J if the producers decided to go that way, because they DID seem to care so much for each other. The only reason I'm glad they didn't bring him on board is because you KNOW that the writers would have found a way to kill him off just to push Janeway's buttons!

Oh, and one more totally off topic "aside" about Queen Victoria who reigned from 1837 to 1901. I listened to a lecture on Winston Churchill and it pointed out that he first went to Parliment in 1900 while Queen Victoria still on the throne, and he was Prime Minister when Queen Elizabeth II was crowned in 1952. How amazing, for one life to touch two other amazing lives. (I wonder if QEII is trying to give QV a run for the title of "longest reigning Monarch".)

 

[Brit]

Until a fanfic finds a "rational" way to unravel it.

I wrote a angsty one where the reason Chakotay was never the same was because HE had been the one responsible for Seven's death. Like I said "never the same again," can mean an awful lot of things.

Brit

As I was trying to come up with "why" Janeway was so stressed after Seven's death, I realized it was equally possible that Chak sent Seven on that mission.

Do you still have that story online somewhere?

Yes I do, LOL I have my own web site. PM me and I will send you the link, it is rated R mostly for language.

Also I do agree Janeway's lack of romantic encounters were more to do with Kate Mulgrew than the writers, the problem is that they thought they had to appeal to teenage males and in the case of Janeway they didn't. The sad thing is even today those things that appeal to teenage girls are usually judged as childish and not something worth spending your time on. The amount of time spent on bashing boy bands and "Twilight" comes to mind.

I think if prejudice could be put aside, Janeway and Voyager could have broke into a different demographic and been very successful with that demographic. My teenage niece never liked Star Trek at all until I showed her "Macrocosm."

Brit

 

[Starbreaker]

Just odd... wouldn't give up after 6.5 years.

 

[kimc]

Until a fanfic finds a "rational" way to unravel it.

I wrote a angsty one where the reason Chakotay was never the same was because HE had been the one responsible for Seven's death. Like I said "never the same again," can mean an awful lot of things.

Brit

I read another one where Chakotay was cheating with Janeway during his marriage to Seven then broke down due to the guilt after her death. Wish I could find it again. There were a slew of "alternate timeline" fixes after the series ended but I'm not sure where they ended up.

Again, that was mostly on Kate refusing to do sex scenes.

Then again she said she was so excited about getting to do an onscreen kiss again (Kashyk) that she decided to "really go to town".

I don't think she has a problem with sex scenes (since she's done them in other shows) however I think she agreed with the producers that she would lose credibility as a captain if they were shown on Voyager.

 

[teya]

So maybe I mated for life but, I just can't relate to the idea that once a partner dies, the other is so bereft his or her life is over. It just doesn't mesh with the real-life widows and widowers......

....... "he was never the same again" to be so much romantic melodrama.

Of course its romantic melodrama.

We... no, that's too pretentious.

You may enjoy that.


I don't. I don't like romance novels either.


So, if that makes me "pretentious," so be it.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

Again, that was mostly on Kate refusing to do sex scenes.

Then again she said she was so excited about getting to do an onscreen kiss again (Kashyk) that she decided to "really go to town".

I don't think she has a problem with sex scenes (since she's done them in other shows) however I think she agreed with the producers that she would lose credibility as a captain if they were shown on Voyager.

Kate's a bit flaky.

She's said she refused to do sex scenes because it would ruin her credibility as a captain. I never really said otherwise. Sorry if I misspoke here.

What I do think is that, had she been more open to the idea, there probably would have been an actual romance in season 6 or 7 as opposed to the holo-toy we wound up, which she, Kate, did not like at all.

 

[exodus]

I dunno. Maybe I'm just a cold-hearted bitch, but I'm a widow (7 years, now) who has never remarried and has no desire to do so. I haven't had a partner since he died, and I've simply got no interest in finding one.


Does this mean I'm a pathetic creature going through the motions? No. I have a full and wonderful life. I simply prefer to be alone.


So maybe I mated for life but, I just can't relate to the idea that once a partner dies, the other is so bereft his or her life is over. It just doesn't mesh with the real-life widows and widowers I know.


Frankly, I find the explanations for "he was never the same again" to be so much romantic melodrama.

Understood and well related to the situation.

However I draw similarities to C/7's stories due to my best friend.
His first gf commited suicide, which sent him into a severe depression.
One so bad he had to hospitalized and monitored for it for a few months.
So, if the assumption that Seven became Chakotay's soul mate during the years after, then I can understand how depression could end his life.

 

[Trek_princess]

It wouldn't bother my in the slightest. If Picard at his age can have his sex scenes so can janeway.

If Kai Winn can have a sex scene, then so can Janeway, lol.

But seriously, older men have sex scenes on tv all the time; why can't women? Older people have sex too. Besides, if you stop watching a show because someone else besides the Seven-of-Nine-mold is viewed in an erotic context, then maybe you are watching the wrong channel.

 

[exodus]

It wouldn't bother my in the slightest. If Picard at his age can have his sex scenes so can janeway.

If Kai Winn can have a sex scene, then so can Janeway, lol.

But seriously, older men have sex scenes on tv all the time; why can't women? Older people have sex too. Besides, if you stop watching a show because someone else besides the Seven-of-Nine-mold is viewed in an erotic context, then maybe you are watching the wrong channel.

How is personal preference the fault of the channel?

How is personal preference wrong?
It's ok to want to see an older woman in a bedroom scene but it's wrong not too?

 

[Brit]

I read another one where Chakotay was cheating with Janeway during his marriage to Seven then broke down due to the guilt after her death. Wish I could find it again. There were a slew of "alternate timeline" fixes after the series ended but I'm not sure where they ended up.

That sounds a lot like a Maquis Leader story, I've offered to beta if she would write Voyager stories again LOL, she keeps telling us on Live Journal that she may write more J/C.

Brit

 

[JanewayRulz!]

So maybe I mated for life but, I just can't relate to the idea that once a partner dies, the other is so bereft his or her life is over. It just doesn't mesh with the real-life widows and widowers......

....... "he was never the same again" to be so much romantic melodrama.

Of course its romantic melodrama.

We... no, that's too pretentious.

So, if that makes me "pretentious," so be it.

I would never suggest such a thing.

In the other post, I began my sentence with a pronoun that made it an unprovable statement.

"We watch Voyager for...." ....then I realized that was inappropriate. There is no "we", there is only "I" watch Voyager for....

If you think I was suggesting you or your statements were pretentious, I apologize for not being clearer.

 

[DevilEyes]

It wouldn't bother my in the slightest. If Picard at his age can have his sex scenes so can janeway.

If Kai Winn can have a sex scene, then so can Janeway, lol.

But seriously, older men have sex scenes on tv all the time; why can't women? Older people have sex too. Besides, if you stop watching a show because someone else besides the Seven-of-Nine-mold is viewed in an erotic context, then maybe you are watching the wrong channel.

How is personal preference the fault of the channel?

How is personal preference wrong?
It's ok to want to see an older woman in a bedroom scene but it's wrong not too?

Um, the issue is not about if you WANT to see someone in a bedroom scene or not... it's about whether it irks you so much that you would actually stop watching a show for it. (And we're not talking about a soft porn show, so the assumption is that you weren't watching for the bedroom scenes, which make a tiny fraction of screen time anyway.) What makes you think that a show has only to feature scenes that you "want" to see? Did you "want" to see Picard tortured, do you "want" to see the Borg assimilating people, or Hirogen hunting and killing people, or a Vidiian with a skin from a guy he's killed on his face, or Neelix having creepy visions about his dead sister looking like a zombie, etc? That's all OK, but seeing a woman you don't find attractive in a bedroom scene would bother you so much to stop watching?

Apparently not, or why don't you vote for the "I would have been so grossed out I'd have stopped watching" option? I see that it still has 0 votes.

 

[exodus]

If Kai Winn can have a sex scene, then so can Janeway, lol.

But seriously, older men have sex scenes on tv all the time; why can't women? Older people have sex too. Besides, if you stop watching a show because someone else besides the Seven-of-Nine-mold is viewed in an erotic context, then maybe you are watching the wrong channel.

How is personal preference the fault of the channel?

How is personal preference wrong?
It's ok to want to see an older woman in a bedroom scene but it's wrong not too?

Um, the issue is not about if you WANT to see someone in a bedroom scene or not... it's about whether it irks you so much that you would actually stop watching a show for it. (And we're not talking about a soft porn show, so the assumption is that you weren't watching for the bedroom scenes, which make a tiny fraction of screen time anyway.) What makes you think that a show has only to feature scenes that you "want" to see? Did you "want" to see Picard tortured, do you "want" to see the Borg assimilating people, or Hirogen hunting and killing people, or a Vidiian with a skin from a guy he's killed on his face, or Neelix having creepy visions about his dead sister looking like a zombie, etc? That's all OK, but seeing a woman you don't find attractive in a bedroom scene would bother you so much to stop watching?

Apparently not, or why don't you vote for the "I would have been so grossed out I'd have stopped watching" option? I see that it still has 0 votes.

That's still want.
They turn it off because they didn't WANT to see it.
If folks didn't WANT to see any of the other stuff you mentioned, they had every right to turn it off then too. As a matter of fact, many Trek fans turned away from Voy. due to the fact they didn't like it and didn't WANT to watch it anymore. They weren't getting what they WANTED from it.
Not a single one of us is being forced to watch anything we choose not too.
The power of free will.

 

[DevilEyes]

Um, the issue is not about if you WANT to see someone in a bedroom scene or not... it's about whether it irks you so much that you would actually stop watching a show for it.

That's still want.
They turn it off because they didn't WANT to see it.

LOL If you turn off the channel every time you see a scene/moment you don't "want" to see (i.e. that won't make you drool), I don't know how you can get through any programme... It would certainly make it impossible to get through any news programme. I suppose the only people who watch crime and cop shows are those who get a kick out of watching dead bodies and crime scenes, everyone else is probably turning off their TVs in disgust.

The only occasion where quitting the show for this reason makes sense is if you're watching porn, which is made with the specific purpose of turning the viewers on. It doesn't turn you on - it fails - you turn it off. Other programmes aren't made for that primary purpose, and if you're watching a show like VOY only to get a glimpse of Seven's boobs and can't stand anything that you don't find 'sexy', you're wasting your time, since you can get actual porn and watch naked young women with big boobs all the time, instead of having to sit through a bunch of other stuff that's not related to sex at all and a bunch of other people you don't find attractive.

If folks didn't WANT to see any of the other stuff you mentioned, they had every right to turn it off then too.

LOL, you're not seriously trying to make this about human rights. As if someone is denying your imaginary childish viewers their right to turn off the TV.

As a matter of fact, many Trek fans turned away from Voy. due to the fact they didn't like it and didn't WANT to watch it anymore. They weren't getting what they WANTED from it.
Not a single one of us is being forced to watch anything we choose not too.
The power of free will.

Exactly. They turned away because VOY wasn't fulfilling their (rational) expectations. I'm pretty sure that most people's reasons for turning away from a show is because they dislike certains storylines, characterizations, etc., not because they saw an actor they didn't find attractive in a bedroom scene for a couple of minutes. They may be upset enough to quit if they disapprove of the storyline in question, but not because they're oh so grossed out by the actor's bare skin. I know plenty of people who started disliking BSG because of the love quandrangle; I haven't heard of anyone quitting it because they didn't like the sight of Adama's naked chest.

Really, the viewer you are describing sounds like someone incredibly immature and silly. "Oh noes! I want to see the hot chick with the big boobies get her clothes off! That's what I'm watching this stupid show for! I don't want to see the chick that looks like my mom in bed with some dude! I'll never watch this show again! My mom does not do that! NOOOOOOOO! She doesn't! (heads on ears) La-la-la..." I really don't believe that they are many viewers like that. Do you know any?