Worf not getting a command - is this fair?

[indolover]

OK, not getting information that could have lessened the war is not a positive thing.

But it was his wife in danger!! Surely Starfleet is not so cold to expect to man to sacrifice his wife. Even Ben himself said he would do the same thing, if it were Jennifer.

In the real life armed forces, is it common for people in romantic relationships to go on missions together?

 

[ares93]

no its not. in fact its against regulation in pretty much every armed force or paramilitary company.
and i wouldn't call it fair but if i was his commanding officer i'd think twice about it as well. he showed that personal feelings go before duty and service. that's pretty much a killing blow for any soldier, marine whatever. even in the 24th century.
in fact they shouldnt even be allowed to merry in the first place.

with that said. i would have done the same. regulation be damned. and that's from someone that comes from a military family.

 

[Tosk]

It is fair. Worf knew the consequences of his actions, and he did it anyway...just as any normal person would.

Loved one > job.

 

[Praxius]

OK, not getting information that could have lessened the war is not a positive thing.

But it was his wife in danger!! Surely Starfleet is not so cold to expect to man to sacrifice his wife. Even Ben himself said he would do the same thing, if it were Jennifer.

In the real life armed forces, is it common for people in romantic relationships to go on missions together?

There are married couples in the Canadian Forces, my cousin and her ex husband both served in Afghanistan. She worked on the books for the forces over there (kind of an accountant) and he was an operator of a Leopard 2 tank.

With having male and female personnel in the armed forces, relationships are bound to occur from time to time and the military as far as I'm aware, has no right to dictate who can marry who.... that is protected by charter of rights.

But, I'm pretty sure the two in a relationship are not allowed (or not supposed to) operate together on missions.

So as far as I'm concerned, Sisko should have known full well not to send both of them alone on a mission together, especially a dangerous one, because these things can and will happen.

Worf did do the right thing regardless of what protocol says. Whether you look at it from a Klingon perspective of honor or the human perspective.... that is your wife/husband dying in front of you and you both swore oaths to one another for better or for worse and was an oath based around love and honor of the other..... to just walk away and allow your husband or wife to die because your job tells you to shows exactly what kind of character you have and how much you value the love of your life above all else.

Worf did what probably everybody else would have done in his position and it was not Worf's fault for being placed in that situation and decision, it was Sisko's for not knowing better and sent them off without a second thought.

Also... I'd just like to point out that at the end of the episode, Sisko said this might (most likely) prevent him from getting his own command... he did not say it was assured he would never get a command...... but it did greatly damage his chances of getting one.

 

[Agenda]

I think this ep was a character assassination of Worf and his culture. Klingons are all about dying with honor and fulfilling their duty at all costs...yet now all of a sudden they're not? I didn't buy Worf's actions at all. The writers dropped the ball, imo.

 

[Jono]

You can't blame Sisko for this, Kira was the one that sent Dax and Worf purely because they were the only ones left as everyone else was playing silly buggers with the Ninth Fleet...save for Miles and Bashir who were playing silly buggers with Quark.

Given Sisko's reaction (doesn't he say Worf would have got court marshalled if it wasn't an Intel op?) Starfleet obviously expects its personnel to follow orders for the best of the service and the Federation regardless of personal issue. Nice ideal but unless you're a Vulcan it is a very hard one to live up to.

 

[ares93]

There are married couples in the Canadian Forces, my cousin and her ex husband both served in Afghanistan. She worked on the books for the forces over there (kind of an accountant) and he was an operator of a Leopard 2 tank.

no offense but that's completely irrelevant. an accountant and a tank operator doesnt interact the way worf and jadzia did.
there is no conflict of interest. the matter at hand is when they work closely together. there is no way any milltary no matter which country would allow a married couple to be in the same fireteam, squad or platoon for instance. and the same would apply on missions.

now i admit i'm not big on regulation in the american or canadian military so i cant promise it applies there too but is should be pretty much accurate anyway.

my experience lies with the hungarian, swedish and german armed forces.

 

[Finn]

Yes, the mission was dire IIRC. Starfleet lost valuable intelligence because of this, which resulted in more losses.

 

[Nightdiamond]

There were quite a few times when other officers deliberately disobeyed orders and were still promoted or never reprimanded.

Sisko left DS9 and took the Defiant into the Gamma Quadrant to rescue Odo and Garak even though he was ordered to STAY THERE. A few months later he got promoted.

Riker once attempted to rescue a woman from a gender neutral society from being "cured" because they were beginning to have a relationship (against the prime directive?)

He was not reprimanded as far as I know.

I agree the expectation seems logical, but in real life it seems very unrealistic and impracticable.

Just yesterday, TNG's "Disaster" was on- In it, Ensign Ro wanted to separate the ship and just leave the drive section to explode, whether or not there were survivors for the good of the saucer section and IT'S survivors.

She explained it in Starfleet terms so she didn't seem cold blooded (Obrien accused her of it), but still, it seemed cold blooded..

 

[Timo]

With having male and female personnel in the armed forces, relationships are bound to occur from time to time

Relationships are bound to occur even when an armed forces is all-male (or all-female for that matter). In fact, militaries in general facilitate and encourage "buddying up" (even though some modern organizations have developed hang-ups about calling this "love") - which sort of undermines the theory that emotionally engaged couples shouldn't serve together. A platoon of men is an emotionally engaged group, or quickly becomes one. Why should it be good when a guy dives on a grenade for another guy (Eek! Faggots!) but bad when he does it for a gal?

Worf getting consequences is a multifaceted issue. It might be an issue of command style: Picard let Worf get away with much the same things he let Riker get away with. One could easily understand if Sisko wanted to amend the failures of previous Starfleet sissies to properly discipline this rogue who had e.g. gone AWOL to murder a competitor. But did Sisko carry that sort of a grudge? He would have had ample opportunity to fall down on Worf like a ton of bricks on earlier episodes already. But in "Hippocratic Oath" where he teaches Worf that doing one's assigned job is bad and allowing a fellow stationmate to exceed his authority is good, he's being polite and understanding about it. Did Sisko only gradually develop a disliking of Worf's flexibility in believing in rules?

Also, Sisko allows his underlings to take self-proscribed leave for murdering people, too. His best friend is an honorary Klingon. It doesn't seem as if he would have philosophical differences with Worf at all. Should we suspect that Sisko in this particular instance was being pressured from above to rein Worf in?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ProtoAvatar]

There were quite a few times when other officers deliberately disobeyed orders and were still promoted or never reprimanded.

Sisko left DS9 and took the Defiant into the Gamma Quadrant to rescue Odo and Garak even though he was ordered to STAY THERE. A few months later he got promoted.

Riker once attempted to rescue a woman from a gender neutral society from being "cured" because they were beginning to have a relationship (against the prime directive?)

He was not reprimanded as far as I know.

Sisko's and Riker's actions did not impact the federation negatively.

In 'change of heart' it is directly stated that the information Worf failed to retrieve would have saved MILLIONS of federation lives - MILLIONS who will now die.
Given the magnitude of Worf's failure, his punishment was a joke.
Expulsion from starfleet is the least severe punishment anyone who failed on that level can expect. Most likely prison for dereliction of duty, too.

 

[RyuRoots]

At this stage, the Dominion defeating the Federation is a very real possibility. Anything that pushes the UFP back a few million more lives is a much more serious thing than it would be even normally.

I think Worf got off lightly all considered.

 

[Admiral Shran]

I'd say it wasn't fair in that he got off way too lightly. He cost the Federation a massive victory against the Dominion. He was only saved from a court-martial and prison because Starfleet Intel couldn't lay their cards on the table for all to see. In that, he was incredibly lucky.

I think Sisko put in correctly at the end of the episode - professionally, Worf couldn't have messed up more; personally, he made the right decision. I know that if I was in his position, I would have made the same choice.

As for whether the episode was a study in character assassination for Worf - he chose his duty to his wife over his duty to the state and was willing to face the consequences of that decision. He didn't try to weasel his way out of the reprecussions. Sounds pretty honorable to me.

 

[indolover]

There were quite a few times when other officers deliberately disobeyed orders and were still promoted or never reprimanded.

Sisko left DS9 and took the Defiant into the Gamma Quadrant to rescue Odo and Garak even though he was ordered to STAY THERE. A few months later he got promoted.

Riker once attempted to rescue a woman from a gender neutral society from being "cured" because they were beginning to have a relationship (against the prime directive?)

He was not reprimanded as far as I know.

Sisko's and Riker's actions did not impact the federation negatively.

In 'change of heart' it is directly stated that the information Worf failed to retrieve would have saved MILLIONS of federation lives - MILLIONS who will now die.
Given the magnitude of Worf's failure, his punishment was a joke.
Expulsion from starfleet is the least severe punishment anyone who failed on that level can expect. Most likely prison for dereliction of duty, too.

True. But I doubt a Starfleet court-martial would give him a hefty sentence. It's not like Eddington and the Maquis.

It's not a black and white case, as I see it. Yes, he hampered the war effort. But who would leave their wife to die?

Perhaps Starfleet blacklisted him from promotion ever again, as punishment, given the facts of the case. "Don't imprison him, but even if he works his socks off under Picard, leave him at Lt. Cmdr, no matter what Jean-Luc recommends to us."

 

[GalaxyClass1701]

Yes the mission was important and he chose his lover over it. A commanding officer is supposed to be able to put personal feelings aside when giving orders.

 

[Praxius]

I think this ep was a character assassination of Worf and his culture. Klingons are all about dying with honor and fulfilling their duty at all costs...yet now all of a sudden they're not? I didn't buy Worf's actions at all. The writers dropped the ball, imo.

During the wedding they explained the two hearts and they explained his reasons in a very klingon manner.

Sure duty and honor are the pinnacles of klingon society.... but when it comes to their husband or wife, even Martok showed weakness to his own wife.... who basically treats him like crap most times.

I personally didn't see it as a character assassination.

You can't blame Sisko for this, Kira was the one that sent Dax and Worf purely because they were the only ones left as everyone else was playing silly buggers with the Ninth Fleet...save for Miles and Bashir who were playing silly buggers with Quark.

I stand corrected, it was a couple of months ago I watched that episode and remembered the end where Sisko and Worf were talking, but forgot that Kira was the one who sent them out..... but even still, Kira could have sent Dax and some no-name, or Worf and some no-name.... it's not like they were the very last two starfleet officers on the station.

It was wrong to order both of them to go on the same dangerous mission for the reasons that occurred.

Given Sisko's reaction (doesn't he say Worf would have got court marshalled if it wasn't an Intel op?) Starfleet obviously expects its personnel to follow orders for the best of the service and the Federation regardless of personal issue. Nice ideal but unless you're a Vulcan it is a very hard one to live up to.

Indeed... officers should be able to abide to such rules under normal circumstances.... and most normal circumstances don't involve you being sent on a dangerous mission with your spouse.... which is why there are rules in place to not send married couples out on missions together.... alone at that..... which Sisko seemed to have corrected at the end of the episode when he claimed that they'd never be allowed to be on a mission together, alone (which should have been the case from the start)

 

[Praxius]

To Mod: Double Post again... sorry. I have a tendency in another forum to just hit the quote button each time and it's setup to automatically merge additional posts into one and tis a force of habit of mine.

no offense but that's completely irrelevant. an accountant and a tank operator doesnt interact the way worf and jadzia did.

It is not irrelevant based on the comment I was responding to:

Ares93 said "in fact they shouldnt even be allowed to merry in the first place."

My response was "With having male and female personnel in the armed forces, relationships are bound to occur from time to time and the military as far as I'm aware, has no right to dictate who can marry who.... that is protected by charter of rights."

If they were in the same squad or whatever, got into a relationship and eventually decided to marry, the military could not tell them they couldn't marry. They would be allowed to marry, but one or the other would be reassigned to another squad.

Apparently in the 24th century, this is not the case and reassignments are not common place over marriage between two starfleet officers.... look at LaForge's family, or Riker and Troi, or the Crushers whom before Wes's father died, they were all serving on the same starship I believe..... or Tores and Paris.... and yes, Worf and Jadzia.

It happens, but in the case of the future and starfleet, none of these married couples should ever be allowed to go on missions alone together and should be accompanied by additional officers..... as I see it anyways.

 

[ares93]

no offense but that's completely irrelevant. an accountant and a tank operator doesnt interact the way worf and jadzia did.

It is not irrelevant based on the comment I was responding to:

Ares93 said "in fact they shouldnt even be allowed to merry in the first place."

My response was "With having male and female personnel in the armed forces, relationships are bound to occur from time to time and the military as far as I'm aware, has no right to dictate who can marry who.... that is protected by charter of rights."

If they were in the same squad or whatever, got into a relationship and eventually decided to marry, the military could not tell them they couldn't marry. They would be allowed to marry, but one or the other would be reassigned to another squad.

Apparently in the 24th century, this is not the case and reassignments are not common place over marriage between two starfleet officers.... look at LaForge's family, or Riker and Troi, or the Crushers whom before Wes's father died, they were all serving on the same starship I believe..... or Tores and Paris.... and yes, Worf and Jadzia.

It happens, but in the case of the future and starfleet, none of these married couples should ever be allowed to go on missions alone together and should be accompanied by additional officers..... as I see it anyways.

alright, you have a valid point there. i stand corrected.
it was poor phrasing on my part. of course they can marry but they're no allowed to serve together so closely. however my point was since neither was reassigned. from today's perspective, they shouldn't have been allowed to marry. its pretty much an ultimatum, reassignment or marrige/romantic involvement.
EDIT: a guy i know actually lost his command because he had been involved romantically with a lieutenant(i think) on his ship.

and the mission part. now i admit i'm influenced my today's regulations but i wouldn't allow a married couple or a couple involved romantically on a mission together, no matter how many fellow officers/soldier accompanied them. and neither would any officer/soldier i know. conflict of interest is bloody dangerous thing.

 

[Praxius]

.... and the mission part. now i admit i'm influenced my today's regulations but i wouldn't allow a married couple or a couple involved romantically on a mission together, no matter how many fellow officers/soldier accompanied them. and neither would any officer/soldier i know. conflict of interest is bloody dangerous thing.

Makes sense.... but with the same logic being applied in the future, one wouldn't have sent off a Galaxy class Flagship of the Federation loaded with children and other civilians to deep space and to fight the Borg either.

I'm not exactly sure where in time this changed to being an ok thing to do and even Picard had reservations on having officer's families and their children on board..... but later on in an episode, he argued that having their family nearby and on the ship gave them (the crew) strength.

What strength is that?

I'm not 100% sure, but I know if I was a member on a starship that my family was also a part of.... I'd probably work just a wee bit harder to ensure the safety of the ship and crew (and my family).... rather then just being myself on the ship and family being back on Earth.... besides worrying about your crew mates, you'd only be concerned of the safety of yourself.

With your family and loved ones on board, you might think more critically and carefully to ensure the right decisions and actions are made for the safety of everybody, especially your family.

In relation.... perhaps that is why they also allow for married couples to work together.... They'd know what the other is thinking.... how they'll react to something, in fact, they'd probably know them better then any other crew member and perhaps be more functional together then apart.

But I still do not agree with allowing the married couple to work alone and should be at least accompanied by one other person in case something happens.

Did Worf make the wrong decision and did he get off lightly?

Yes he made the right decision, I don't think he got off lightly.... but in my honest opinion... the fault of the missions' failure lies on the person who ordered the two of them to go off on their own in the first place.

Sending them on their own created the factor that occurred and if Kira sent one more person with them, even a disposable no-name, Worf would have been able to complete the mission on his own, while the no-name could have taken dax back to the ship and render more medical assistance.

Because this didn't happen, Worf was placed in a very difficult position and because of Kira's blunder... he took the brunt of the guilt and responsibility of why the mission failed in the first place.

Which to me seemed like one big FU to Worf while Kira went on about her day and nothing was said to her.

 

[ares93]

.... and the mission part. now i admit i'm influenced my today's regulations but i wouldn't allow a married couple or a couple involved romantically on a mission together, no matter how many fellow officers/soldier accompanied them. and neither would any officer/soldier i know. conflict of interest is bloody dangerous thing.

Makes sense.... but with the same logic being applied in the future, one wouldn't have sent off a Galaxy class Flagship of the Federation loaded with children and other civilians to deep space and to fight the Borg either.

I'm not exactly sure where in time this changed to being an ok thing to do and even Picard had reservations on having officer's families and their children on board..... but later on in an episode, he argued that having their family nearby and on the ship gave them (the crew) strength.

What strength is that?

I'm not 100% sure, but I know if I was a member on a starship that my family was also a part of.... I'd probably work just a wee bit harder to ensure the safety of the ship and crew (and my family).... rather then just being myself on the ship and family being back on Earth.... besides worrying about your crew mates, you'd only be concerned of the safety of yourself.

With your family and loved ones on board, you might think more critically and carefully to ensure the right decisions and actions are made for the safety of everybody, especially your family.

In relation.... perhaps that is why they also allow for married couples to work together.... They'd know what the other is thinking.... how they'll react to something, in fact, they'd probably know them better then any other crew member and perhaps be more functional together then apart.

But I still do not agree with allowing the married couple to work alone and should be at least accompanied by one other person in case something happens.

Did Worf make the wrong decision and did he get off lightly?

Yes he made the right decision, I don't think he got off lightly.... but in my honest opinion... the fault of the missions' failure lies on the person who ordered the two of them to go off on their own in the first place.

Sending them on their own created the factor that occurred and if Kira sent one more person with them, even a disposable no-name, Worf would have been able to complete the mission on his own, while the no-name could have taken dax back to the ship and render more medical assistance.

Because this didn't happen, Worf was placed in a very difficult position and because of Kira's blunder... he took the brunt of the guilt and responsibility of why the mission failed in the first place.

Which to me seemed like one big FU to Worf while Kira went on about her day and nothing was said to her.

thats a tough one, i admit. alright put it this way, command officers that are involved shouldn't be allowed to serve together. well, i suppose this could be considered discrimination and its hard to live up to but i still have strong objections about this. when it comes to the safety of the crew and the ship nothing should interfere with the commanding officers or command crews decision.
as i stated before, conflict of interest is a dangerous thing... but then again i'm not really objective in this matter. military family and all that. so we probably wont see eye to eye on this one.

there is always two sides of a coin as they say. with family aboard everyone would work harder but its the thing to put family ahead of duty is what scares the brass.

and as you said Kira is behind this. she should have gotten at least a formal reprimand for endangering the mission like that. now, worf did get away quite easily in my eyes but if i was in his CO's position i wouldnt stop him from receiving a command. yes, i would think twice about it and i would make it harder for him but in my eyes, ultimately the blame lies with Kira. the regulations are in place in order to prevent people from having to do these kind of decisions. the thing is no rational person would sacrifice his wife for a mission and no one should be put in a position like that.

with that said, with the bashing of worf. i would hade done the same if i was in worf's shoes. and i would have gladly even taken a dishonorable discharge than live with the decision to have sacrificed my wife.